i go and look at it

How did you know it was for sale, and where to go to buy it?

Ben – you know the main reason I bought it off you?  So someone I knew from here got the profits.  I could have got one marginally cheaper elsewhere.  that and your reputation as a good bloke and your willingness to think laterally about making it fit.  is that marketing?

In short, yes.

The four Ps of marketing:

Product (or Service).

Place.

Price.

Promotion.

that and your reputation as a good bloke and your willingness to think laterally about making it fit.  is that marketing?

Yes.

Edit to fix the quote, good lord this new website is bad.

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;”> I knew the attributes I wante</span><span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;”>d.  shaft drive, upright riding position, ABS.</span>

Just to disappoint you slightly, the reason that a shaft drive, upright riding position bike with ABS even exists is because someone in a marketing department decided that there was a market for it. Probably someone at BMW.

Type 4 Grumpy Old GIts would buy them.

what I do is buy the product that comes closest to the attributes I want.

But how do you choose those attributes when shopping? “Cleans faster’! ‘More economical’! ‘500% FREE’! ‘Tastier 100% beef burger’!

TJ has never been influenced by any kind of moustache based promotional material.

Nope.

Never. 😉

Plyphon.  the first property was bought via a estate agent – but again I knew what i wanted, i waited until as suitable property ( on one of 3 streets) came up for sale and I bought it.  so the only bit of marketing was being aware it was for sale.

Second property I approached the owner and asked him to sell.  No marketing involvement at all in that.  None.

Well that first example is textbook marketing 101. The estate agent had a product, they identified the target market (you!) and priced it accordingly, and brought it to market via their store frontage/website/back of Razzle magazine.

The second one I’ll give you.

HOw do I chose those attributes when shopping?  I look at what it is.  Not at what it claims to be.  sometimes this is the same thing.  sometimes it is not.

Look this is a ridiculous debate.  You guys simply seem incapable of understanding my position.  It seems impossible to you to understand how I live my life.

I fully accept after the last debate that rather than having no effect on me it has minimal effect that I consciously try to minimize.  I also understand that my way of thinking is so alien to many of you that you seem unable to understand how I operate.  Much marketing and advertising actually has a negative effect on me.

I shall drop this now as last time it got very heated adn I pissed of a load of folk.  Please try to accept that you do not understand how I l;ive my life.  How many of you have never bought a new piece of furniture?  A car? Used the same razer they were given 30+ years ago.  Never bought cutlery, crockery, pots and pans?  never bought a new piece of hi fi, never bought a pair of curtains?    Its a lifestyle you seem both unable and unwilling to understand.  I accept I don’t understand yours.

LOlz at PP 😉  that really is a bit uncanny

I’m going to start a business selling Rohloff hubs. I could sell them for the absolute cheapest I can, or, I could sell them for more money, having spent years building a reputation as a good bloke to deal with in such matters, who uses a bit of lateral thinking to making things fit, post on a forum now and then….

Both approaches will get me sales, which do you think I should go for @TJagain? Which business would you choose to buy from?

I suppose it’s what I’d call unmarketing. Just doing a reasonable job and mostly relying on word-of-mouth is really getting other people to do your marketing for you.

Ben, that would be them doing your advertising for you.

I’m not really clear on the difference, TBH 😉

“The only thing on packaging is I prefer minimal packaging” A marketing department selecting mono-colour designs and plain fonts to distinguish from a different brand that is probably the same product

“so the only bit of marketing was being aware it was for sale.” the Estate Agent boss decides to use the standard method of boards and shop front as well as putting the houses on rightmove

“unless you consider the engineering attributes to be marketing” Yes!

One more.  ON buying the tandem

I saw someone in a race in france using them and they were laughing so much they fell off.  I thought.  “that looks fun maybe we should get one”.  I joined an online forum for tandem mountainbikes to get info and someone offered me a suitable secondhand one.  I bought it.  Not much marketing there.

I knew the attributes I wanted. shaft drive, upright riding position, ABS.  I went round all the motorcycle shops until I found a bike with those attributes and bought it.  the only marketing involvement is that there was a shop ( unless you consider the engineering attributes to be marketing)  what badge was on the tank was irrelevant to me.

BMW’s decision to design, manufacture and sell that bike (with those attributes you wanted), was a marketing decision. They knew that there were a lot of potential customers (of whom you proved yourself to be one) for a bike with those attributes, and they calculated that such a bike would be profitable for them.

It’s fair enough to say that the badge was irrelevant to you, but don’t be dismissive of others buying based on the badge. The BMW brand (=badge) has a reputation, which is something which it has taken years to build up, and which they will be at pains to maintain and develop. It’s quite reasonable for some people to use the brand, or its reputation, as a basis for making a decision about which maker or model to purchase. In a sense, the badge is a short cut for the customer to make a decision. They, like you, do not have the time, money and information to understand everything good and bad about the product (unless you are an automotive expert with several degrees and access to workshops to dismantle bikes and test and compare them). So rather than angonise over it, they decide to get a BMW. If they are happy with it, who’s to say their decision making process was any worse than yours?

i give up

The only thing on packaging is I prefer minimal packaging” A marketing department selecting mono-colour designs and plain fonts to distinguish from a different brand that is probably the same product

Point missed.Minimal packaging is not the same as plain packaging

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;”> unless you consider the engineering attributes to be marketing</span>

Missed that, and yes, the attributes set are absolutely utterly determined by marketing.

All we get to do in engineering is to tell them which ones are physically impossible.

Then (some) use them in their advertising………

I fully accept after the last debate that rather than having no effect on me it has minimal effect that I consciously try to minimize.

Conciously trying to minimize something that’s meant to work on a subconcious level – good luck with that!

final post.  can you guys answer this.  How many of you in 40 years since leaving home have NEVER bought a single piece of furniture or home furnishings new?   ( bar one set of bedding)  Have NEVER bought any new cutlery, crockery or pots and pans or other piece of kitchen equipment.  Have NEVER bought a new piece of audiovisual equipment?

There is a gulf of comprehension here because you do not understand my lifestyle or my values

Minimal packaging is also a marketing decision. As is plain packaging.

I don’t need to watch the Porsche brakes video, as I had official permission from the better half the other day to buy myself one. I wrote it down, just in case she forgets.

‘You’d best have one soon, before you get too old and look like a dick driving it’.

But I did concede that in less than 2 years I’ll probably have gone off it due to the impracticalities of it, (this will be a daily driver, not a garage queen) and have another van.

Off topic I know, but hell, I’m buying a Porsche! (Cayman, not 911 and probably a few years old)

Anyone know where I can buy a used hair shirt?

It’s doesn’t matter if its new or not. Marketing still decided what it was going to be. What it was going to look like, what attributes it was going to have.

But, TJ, you have bought a house, or 2, plenty of people have never bought one of those, are they better at being unaffected marketing than you?. The product itself doesn’t matter, what we are talking about is the process used to sell it or get it to market and, in some cases, that’s you.

(not trying to bait you, but you do seem to be saying/doing everything other than accepting you might not be totally on the money here)

I shall drop this now as last time it got very heated adn I pissed of a load of folk. Please try to accept that you do not understand how I l;ive my life. How many of you have never bought a new piece of furniture? A car? Used the same razer they were given 30+ years ago. Never bought cutlery, crockery, pots and pans? never bought a new piece of hi fi, never bought a pair of curtains? Its a lifestyle you seem both unable and unwilling to understand. I accept I don’t understand yours.

I’m nowhere near as extreme as you … as in I have a new razor a couple of years old that was a present from my bother and I have on occasion bought new pans…

However I never have or do I think will ever buy a new car or new furniture outside of a folding chair for <£15…. or new HiFi – TV or buy curtains not material

I’m not entirely certain that’s a lifestyle… I once got a new bike back in the 80’s… non of my current bikes were bought new… they were all bought because that is what was there 2nd hand… My kid got a new frame and fork because it was cheaper and reduce over 50%… and he got a new fork on his other bike because it was cheaper than a used one (also discounted over 50%)

It’s doesn’t matter if its new or not. Marketing still decided what it was going to be. What it was going to look like, what attributes it was going to have.

I’m sure I’m subject to someones marketing… but not the ones who created the products… My TV is a Samsung (I don’t actually watch it but it’s my brothers old TV) … I’m typing this on a old computer I was given… Its a Mac but because that’s what I was given… etc.

Someone on eBay did some “marketing” on selling bikes I bought…. but can you say that was thought out “marketing” when 2/3 were zero other bids…

There is a gulf of comprehension here because you do not understand my lifestyle or my values

TJ, I get it: you make your purchasing decisions based on price vs. value, and for you value is all about fitness for purpose (not about any associations the brand may have with a particular type of consumer or lifestyle).

However, many marketing departments will similarly target people like you with that perspective. In other words they know that some customers will not be won over by fancy packaging, celebrity endorsements, advertising campaigns etc. – only by the ability of the product to fulfil its function and be good value. So they will design, manufacture and sell such products accordingly.

The fact that you will buy second hand rather than new does not mean that you exist outside that system of manufacturers and consumers. Many products have a second hand market. Indeed, good quality furniture should last more than one lifetime. In contrast very cheap, badly made furniture will probably never last long enough to be capable of being resold. The decisions of one manufacturer to make good quality furniture and another to make rubbish that falls apart, are marketing decisions. By limiting your purchases to second hand, you are just weeding out many poor quality products and improving the ratio of price to value.

you simply keep on trying to tell me I do things that I simply do not.

No, I’m not telling you what YOU do, I’m telling you what BMW do!

They decided to make a bike with upright position, shaft drive etc because they thought it would sell.  THAT is marketing.

Persuading you to buy one is advertising.  You may be immune to advertising, you may not aspire to lots of material posessions, that’s all great and lovely – you do not need to keep going on about this.  I understand it, I get it, it’s a laudible aim, great.

But if you buy ANY manufactured goods, you are responding to the company’s decision to produce it.  You buy the thing you want, they make the thing you want.  Do you agree?

Slowstr – almost there in your understanding – thanks – one of the few who want to.  Price is little to do with most of my purchases.  I decide what I want, I find what I want.  I buy it.  The marketing has very little do do with my decision to buy only on ( from your definition of marketing) the availability of that product

The main marketing decisions that affect me are location of shops

My armchair has broken.  I know what I want in a new one.  I have been looking for one for a while and can’t find one.  So I repaired the broken one rather than buy something that does not have the attributes I want.

Marketing may have led to that product being available on the secondhand market.  But that is its only effect on my decision making that it is avaiabl

Ok – really – folk are getting exasperated and I get fed up with folk ( not you) who are unwilling and unable to understand a lifestyle alien to them so really I won’t answer any more points.

Marketing has minimal effect on me ‘cos 1) I do not buy new goods very often.  and 2) I make decisions based on my own criteria I buy for what that thing is not what it is marketed as.  sometimes these are the same, sometimes it is not.  I do my very best to look behind the marketing and to minimize / mitigate its effects because I do understand much of how it works and many of the tricks used to persuade one to buy that product.

I’ll bite.

Nearly 10 years since I smoked a cigarette. Every time I see Don Draper light one up I wish I had one. Play with my Zippo every time I come across it when rooting for something. Smoking adverts and placements in media definitely have a pull on me.

I see a Tesla and I want it. Probably due to virtue signalling in part and in part because it seems like a cool car. Other cars, not so much.

Bikes. Not sure why, but I’d like to own an Ibis one day. Is it Brian Lopes? Or maybe because my mate Colin rides one? Who knows. There’s just something about them.

Cameras. I see a beautiful photo and look for the EXIF data. I desperately want a Canon 5D or 1D someday.

Social media, probably not as much as it used to. I thoroughly recommend reading “Hooked” by Nir Eyal. It really helps understand how they keep us engaged with the product, and products in general. I have a pretty bad compulsion to check certain websites several times a day. Maybe in part to feel connected to society and in part to just consume information/entertainment.

So yeah. Marketing works on me. It probably works on everyone. Only difference is some people are more aware of it than others I guess?

Much marketing and advertising actually has a negative effect on me.

So buying decisions are affected by branding etc?

I have no problem admitting I very easily have my head turned by the right kind of advertising. I am protected to some degree, however, by a) a reluctance to spend money on shiny toys and b) a severe case of procrastination, even for things I actually need! These two sides of the purchasing dilemma seem to cancel each other out- I’m very good at aspiring to own the thing but terrible at getting round to it.

As a result I tend not to worry about it too much- if after a few weeks/months/years I still think it’s something I would like, it’s probably worth considering.

Mologrips – I agreed with that point early on in this debate.

the main influences of marketing on me are availability of a product that meets my criteria and the location of the shop.

They decided to make a bike with upright position, shaft drive etc because they thought it would sell. THAT is marketing.

Persuading you to buy one is advertising. You may be immune to advertising, you may not aspire to lots of material posessions, that’s all great and lovely – you do not need to keep going on about this. I understand it, I get it, it’s a laudible aim, great.

But if you buy ANY manufactured goods, you are responding to the company’s decision to produce it. You buy the thing you want, they make the thing you want. Do you agree?

As I said earlier… out of the 3 bikes I own 2/3 were bought due to them having zero bidders on eBay.

One of these is a XC bike… the other is a DJ bike….both of which have numerous manufacturers producing very similar products with little or nothing to distinguish them from other similar products.

I didn’t look for these by the brand or model…. they just are what they are.

My trail bike however I did buy specifically…. but even then the majority of the manufacturers “marketing” was irrelevant… yep they chose a group set but I bought it ANYWAY (as I had some spare pats to remove the supplied group set)…. they put on a fork but I bought it anyway… etc.

The marketing that did work was for them to do a deal with demo centres and bike hubs…

The other two bikes though was almost anti-marketing ….the manufacturers decided to make a general XC bike on one and a general DJ/Street bike for the other. Frankly, neither manufacturer was a specific preference (or not) for me….

What got me to buy these bikes was poor marketing… one was simply it was being sold black friday weekend… had zero bids etc. and was a 27.5 XC bike when perhaps they should have marketed a 29er?

The other was marked seller away… and for reasons probably more to do with that specific model being canned after 2 yrs due to bad marketing (the market for a DJ bike with gears being somewhat less than they anticipated) also got no bigs so I got the whole thing cheaper than a pair of used wheels…

I guess my criteria for both was from the manufacturers marketing “not terrible” …but they missed a point on the product that mass it unattractive but good enough for me?

I wish my business partner was like TJ though – he is the absolute polar opposite of everything TJ believes. He simply must always have the latest and shiniest things (be that purchased through the business or his own stuff). He spends thousands and thousands on stuff like the latest MacBook (he’ll make up reasons why his old one wasn’t up to the job despite my having an identical one that works fine for me). He recently spent a frankly insane amount of money on a road bike (£7,500) – yes he likes riding, but his last bike was only a year old and cost him £6,000 back then. He makes all sorts of excuses to justify his actions but it’s embarrassing (and I constantly wind him up about this). Everything he wears needs to be branded – from £200 handmade jeans through to Castelli cycling socks (when a cheap pair of socks from Sports Direct will do 99.99999% the same job).

If only his wife knew what he spends all of his money on.

TJ thinks everyone’s like that.  Especially me 🙂  And only he’s different and special.

 I do my very best to look behind the marketing and to minimize / mitigate its effects because I do understand much of how it works and many of the tricks used to persuade one to buy that product.

You’re referring to advertising specifically in that case.

But marketing is often the reason why the product exists in the first place.

No moly – you sit in the middle for me and I know a load of folk who think like me.  Bunch of smelly hippies / crusties that we are