Mandatory Full Face helmets in enduro for 2015

Viewing 38 posts - 201 through 238 (of 238 total)
  • Mandatory Full Face helmets in enduro for 2015
  • legend
    Member

    Not meaning that there isn’t any skill involved, but guaranteed that any climb and singletrack (which I’m taking to mean “pedally as ****”) would be won by a whippet

    I don’t get why people are getting so hung up on carrying 2 helmets, if FF’s do become compulsory, which from an insurance perspective it will happen at some point for all Enduros. It’ll only be a matter of time until someone has a big off and tries to sue the organisers IMO which will drive this. Then everyone wanting to enter the events will just have to suck it up and make the choice of just using a FF only, taking 2 helmets or not taking part at all.

    If the pros can ride with 2 helmets on the EWS why can’t us normal people do the same? Yes the courses probably aren’t as tough at most EWS events but then a lot of them are being run on old DH tracks and if you were racing DH then you’d be riding them with FF helmets anyway.

    Yes cost is probably a part of it for some people but if you can spunk £3k+ on a bike what’s another £100 on a FF helmet.

    fooman
    Member

    Then put a motor on your bike so you don’t have to pedal at all. Without pedalling you don’t really have mountain biking. I know some riders just want downhill, and there’s a discipline for that, called downhill. I’d like to see Enduro be different, but the events will go where the entrants & riders want it to, if that’s more downhill focused then so be it. And if it’s more downhill focused then FF will no doubt become mandatory, as it will be hard to see the difference.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    @Legend- You might think that but look at the EWS this year- the pedalliest and least technical and steep stage couldn’t be described as a downhill stage, it’s 3 miles with only about 1000 feet of drop, 2 climbs, some very pedally sections through the trailcentre… Some flat out widetrack, but mostly classic, brilliant scottish singletrack (I built some of it, I would say that 😉 ), you could take your wednesday mixed bag night ride down it. I have done!

    Results- Won by Jared Graves, Justin Leov 2nd, Martin Maes 3rd, Richie Rude, Nico Lau, Rene Wildhaber and Joe Barnes all in the top 10- in fact, 7 of the overall top 10, were in the top 10 for that stage, which is pretty consistent with the most technical stages, and the middly stages for that matter. (always somewhere between 6 and 8)

    So it didn’t go to a whippet, it went to a gang of superb allrounders, just like the other stages- which imo exactly how it should be.

    ultimateweevil – Member

    If the pros can ride with 2 helmets on the EWS why can’t us normal people do the same?

    What, like enduro world champion Jared Graves?

    Or how about enduro world champion Tracey Moseley?

    legend
    Member

    I’m not hugely fussed either way, but I really don’t look forward to landing on my back with an XC lid attached

    ^ Because the current rule is helmets must be worn at all times, this means you either wear a FF all day which is just bloody stupid or carry 2. I would personally rather risk smashing my face in and wear an open facer all day than either wear a FF or run the risk of damaging my back ‘cos I’ve strapped an extra helmet to my back. I already own a FF helmet.

    I’m not disputing FF’s are a PITA, I’d rather not have to ride in one that’s for sure but it will be inevitable and moaning about it won’t change it, people will just have to adapt to it.

    legend
    Member

    Until (possibly) someone lands on a helmet attached to their pack and **** their back – lawsuit for too many helmets

    fr0sty125
    Member

    I don’t buy the idea that ff is prohibitively expensive 661 comp £60 considering most people are racing £2k+bikes.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    I don’t buy the idea that ff is prohibitively expensive 661 comp £60 considering most people are racing £2k+bikes.

    Well that’s good. You appear to be the only one suggesting it.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    fr0sty125 – Member

    I don’t buy the idea that ff is prohibitively expensive 661 comp £60 considering most people are racing £2k+bikes.

    Nobody says it’s prohibitively expensive.

    But it is a barrier to entry. You’re thinking of doing your first enduro. You don’t really know if you’ll enjoy it. It costs £30 to enter, that sounds alright. Oh but you need a full face helmet, it’s £50 even for a cheap one, suddenly it costs £80 to dabble in the sport, that’s getting pricy for a single day out. And if you don’t enjoy it, you’ll probably never wear that helmet again. And if you do, you’ll probably want to buy a better helmet. And finding one that fits, that you like, that’s suitable for the job, when you’ve never had one before and you don’t really know… Time and hassle.

    Alternatively: Fancy doing that Fair City Enduro (*) at the weekend, it’ll be a great laugh… Oh I dunno, what do I need? Just your normal bike and your normal riding kit. Do I not need a special enduro bike and helmet and kit and that? Nah, that’s all just marketing bollocks. But I heard it’s expensive? Nah, it’s only £30. OK cool, I’m in, why not!

    I had a fullface from riding downhill… If I didn’t, and if my first enduro race had required one, I wouldn’t have entered. Even after doing dozens of races, when the Bluegrass enduro mandated fullface, I’d have not entered if I’d not already had the helmet. And I’m too old to think I’m a beautiful and unique snowflake so if it’d put me off, it’ll put other people off. And it’s brilliant, so I’d hate to see that.

    But also, as I said earlier- “Oh it’s not for me, it’s too dangerous and difficult- it must be, because you need a fullface helmet like a downhill race”. The message is- this isn’t like the mountain biking you do. Seeing the world’s best riding with kit like yours on bikes like yours says, this is riding like yours. We are all doing the same sport.

    (* It’s the Fair City Enduro this weekend- it’ll be ace. It’s not a Proper Enduro because you don’t need a fullface and 1337 skillz so normal people can do it, and you’ll have to pedal a bit, but it was a great day out last year)

    deviant
    Member

    I dont have a problem with the FF rule, as i stated near the start of this thread hopefully it will see a move towards steeper more technical courses….talk of entire uphill stages, skills sections etc are not what they do in Europe as Enduro so please dont call it that, it would be like explaining Rugby to people who have never heard of it before and they start changing the format and rules to suit themselves….thats fine but dont call it Rugby afterwards, its the same for enduro….it is predominantly a downhill race with no more than 10-15% of climbing per timed stage, that is what they aim for on the continent and they invented the thing, chopping and changing it because a few old Brits dont want to wear FF seems daft, go and organise something else that suits your taste then…the Scottish organiser trying out Enduro-Lite sounds perfect for these guys and girls.

    Pics below of the World Champions wearing FF on various Enduros….i should imagine they look at an Enduro beforehand and decide whether they need a FF or open face, then get on with it instead of bitching and moaning on an internet forum….you’ll notice in the first pic Tracy Moseley appears to be carrying her open face on her back while wearing her FF….think of the kittens!

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    deviant – Member

    Pics below of the World Champions wearing FF on various Enduros….i should imagine they look at an Enduro beforehand and decide whether they need a FF or open face, then get on with it

    When the rules say they have to wear full face, they do. I don’t know what you think that tells us? But when the rules give them a choice, it shows us what they think is the best option. And of course shows that the whole “your race is too easy” or “ur not trying hard enough lol” thing is nonsense.

    Simple question for you- if you’re crashing on your back, would you rather have a helmet strapped on there, or not?

    More complicated question- do you think that wearing a fullface is always safer?

    deviant – Member

    it would be like explaining Rugby to people who have never heard of it before and they start changing the format and rules to suit themselves… thats fine but dont call it Rugby afterwards,

    What, like touch rugby? Rugby league vs union? Rugby 7s? 😆

    mikewsmith
    Member

    .talk of entire uphill stages, skills sections etc are not what they do in Europe as Enduro so please dont call it that, it would be like explaining Rugby to people who have never heard of it before and they start changing the format and rules to suit themselves….thats fine but dont call it Rugby afterwards, its the same for enduro..

    So from Europe…
    Enduro is a sport where
    You ride technical or descending sections of trail that are timed and have a time limit to get between them. You ride the transitions unless you take uplift as part of the event and the nature of the stages is such that there is some riding of a varying nature but is more down than up completed in somewhere between 1 and 3 days.

    It’s a relatively new sport for most people, it’s not got a rigid definition and as Northwind put so much better than I am about to who died and made you the god of enduro. Until the King of Gnar from Gnarporn trademarks the name Enduro and officially has to inspect every inch of tract to ensure he gets a gnar boner from it then I think it can go the way it wants to. It’s raced differently in a lot of countries, give it a chance, it’s not XC it’s not DH it’s a multi stage race.

    ahwiles
    Member

    just saying…

    in at least 3 of those pics the riders have only 1 helmet, and in 2 pics the rider isn’t even carrying a bag.

    so, enduro, no bags allowed.

    mikewsmith
    Member

    and here is a photo of the EWS World Champion

    Wearing a cap

    Thinking what he could do with his baguette

    and in a magazine called Enduro racing in lycra

    What does that tell us?

    scottfitz
    Member

    scottfitz – Member
    This rule will only apply to certain events if you don’t like it don’t race or choose a event that doesn’t have the rule, simple!

    Let me put my previous comment in to context. At the moment only one race organiser (5 race series) has come out and said the will make FF mandatory.

    There were 50+ Enduro races in the UK in 2014 if you don’t like the rule you still have 45+ races to pick from!

    However if BC start enforcing the rule on race organisers then you will have less to pick from but hopefully still enough for new riders to try the sport.

    scottfitz
    Member

    deviant all your pics are from enduro’s that use ski lifts to help you get to the start of stages. Very different to enduro’s in the UK.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    scottfitz – Member

    Let me put my previous comment in to context. At the moment only one race organiser (5 race series) has come out and said the will make FF mandatory.

    Yup. And personally I think that’s a nice strong precedent- race organisers can make the decision that’s right for their series.

    But, on the other hand, the UKGE being one of the national series is very influential…. and should BC decide to continue to support the sport, while also continuing to be a bit clueless about it, I reckon there’s a chance that they follow where Steve leads.

    And probably likewise insurers (though, heh, maybe the insurance should be higher for events that think a fullface is required? 😉 )

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    it is predominantly a downhill race with no more than 10-15% of climbing per timed stage, that is what they aim for on the continent

    Right, so if there’s 16% climbing, it’s not Enduro, and presumably they then consult you on what it is called?

    Is that 10-15% horizontal distance? Or height gained as a proportion of height lost?

    The whole “this is what world champions are doing”, is pretty irrelevant too when as Northwind’s said repeatedly the whole selling point of enduro is that it’s “the riding you normally do”, but competitive. That’s no different to telling some beginner doing a BC Go-Ride event that they have to shave their legs and wear lycra, because that’s what the winner of the Tour de France does!

    deviant
    Member

    njee20 – Member

    Right, so if there’s 16% climbing, it’s not Enduro, and presumably they then consult you on what it is called?

    Is that 10-15% horizontal distance? Or height gained as a proportion of height lost?

    The whole “this is what world champions are doing”, is pretty irrelevant too when as Northwind’s said repeatedly the whole selling point of enduro is that it’s “the riding you normally do”, but competitive.

    Pedant.

    The article i’ve borrowed from is by Matt Wragg who is a MTB-er himself, a photographer of the sport and a journalist involved in MTB-ing, he wrote the article ‘A Beginners Guide To Enduro: What The Hell Is It?’ back in 2012 because there was a huge amount of confusion surrounding this new (to the UK) form of racing…if you google it you can find it on various sites.

    It’s a good informative little piece, well worth a read, it goes into the history of this discipline, early races in Europe, the current Enduro scene in Europe, general guidelines as to what constitutes an Enduro and what doesnt.

    The source of much confusion in the UK is the word Enduro itself, because it is so similar to Endurance people still think it is a marathon type event, it isnt and if you want to do a trial of your endurance then there are Marathon type events out there….

    ….the next bit is down to the MTB press in the UK, in order to drum up interest in the new discipline they started referring to it as “the kind of riding you do with your mates”, while i’m sure they had the best of intentions and didnt want this new variation of MTB-ing to appear intimidating or exclusive it has kind of led to an Enduro scene now where if things do get steep and technical and FF lids are spoken about then a startling number of riders are now crying foul and saying things like ‘i dont wear a FF with my mates’ or ‘i dont need a FF to ride around the woods’ etc etc

    My personal preference is for a FF, in a race situation i can ride at 10 tenths and not worry about about a dog walker round the corner or somebody riding in the other direction…there are also marshals and medics at a race which inspires a bit more confidence, for me the FF is the finishing touch which takes the last bit of weight from my shoulders and allows me to ride as i would like….i can happily poke up with some extra heat on the transitions.

    I have several FF lids because i also ride motorbikes on and off road, there are so many different types that you can always find one that is comfortable, vented enough etc….in the same way that people on here chop and change saddles, bars etc until they find the perfect fit the same can be true for helmets.
    There is a huge difference between the FF i wear on my dirtbike and the FF i wear on my MTB, the motorcycle one will boil my head on a warm day but the MTB one has a larger facial aperture and plenty of venting, its also loads lighter and i can peddle around in it without too many problems…being asked to wear a FF for an Enduro is not the end of the world, organisers will soon learn how hard they can push fully kitted up FF riders on the transitions and if people are suffering/struggling due to being asked to wear FF lids then organisers will have to make transitions easier or risk nobody turning up next year.

    re. the pic of Tracy Moseley with her open face on her back, no real reason behind that photo other than the hysteria on here about being asked to carry a lid on your back during an Enduro.
    Personally i wouldnt do it, i’d poke up with a FF for the day but each to their own.
    Is it any different to riders heading off on the trail with a rucksack packed full of stuff laying over their spine?….i’ve seen riders putting all manner of solid objects in their rucksacks before heading out and it always gives me the jitters, not saying people on this thread do the same but its something to think about.

    Last opinion from me on FF and Enduro, if the main objection is that the transitions will be unbearable wearing a FF then the organiser has probably got things wrong with the amount of riding required in the transitions…refer back to the article by Matt Wragg i mentioned, the important part of an Enduro is the timed (predominantly downhill) stages, if the focus has shifted to the transitions and what helmet to wear then people have probably lost sight of what is actually being timed/raced in the event.

    Anyway,it will be interesting to see which way Enduro goes in 2015, i know which direction i’ll be hoping for but there will no doubt be enough races out there to cater for everybody.

    andyrm
    Member

    Last opinion from me on FF and Enduro, if the main objection is that the transitions will be unbearable wearing a FF then the organiser has probably got things wrong with the amount of riding required in the transitions…refer back to the article by Matt Wragg i mentioned, the important part of an Enduro is the timed (predominantly downhill) stages, if the focus has shifted to the transitions and what helmet to wear then people have probably lost sight of what is actually being timed/raced in the event.

    ^^This. Look at the Superenduro series (all pedalling up, no lifts), majority of riders stay in a FF all day rather than carry 2. Given that a: Superenduro events are typically longer than UK Enduro events and b: it’s warmer in Italy, the overheating argument isn’t really that valid and if transition times (note I said time not distance) need adjusting to make it less XC, then that’s all good.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    deviant – Member

    i’ve seen riders putting all manner of solid objects in their rucksacks before heading out and it always gives me the jitters,

    Yup, exactly the same for me- so why would we want to encourage that?

    deviant – Member

    if the main objection is that the transitions will be unbearable wearing a FF then the organiser has probably got things wrong with the amount of riding required in the transitions

    It’s one of several objections rather than the main one… But you have to go up to have a gravity sport! Some organisers do seem to like to make transitions harder than they should be (UKGE used some weird routes at innerleithen) but if you want to have a decent number of decent stages you end up with a lot of climbing.

    So the EWS E2 was about 50 miles over 2 days with something like 9000 feet of climbing, frinstance. (plus the same again or more for practice). But even then I don’t think people choose open face for the climbing- I don’t anyway, I choose it for all the riding.

    And once again “Well they do it in Italy” is really not an argument why we should do it here. It shows it’s possible to do it here, but nobody disputes that anyway.

    superfli
    Member

    I heard that EWS rd6 Whistler was 50km and 3800m climbing… in 1 day….Also no fuel stations, so self sufficient. Would this be classed as Endurance Enduro? 😛

    Personally I dont give a hoot. I have a FF and will wear it if required. I will check the length/altitude gain of transitions and weather forecast prior to race and decide whether to take both lids or not. Simples. I’d also not bother doing an Enduro the length of EWS Rd6!

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Incidentally- Dudes of Hazard Enduro/SES round 6 is very nearly sold out and is consistently brilliant. So if anyone fancies stopping arguing about enduro for long enough to do some enduroing, get in now.

    philbert31
    Member

    I fancied that but theres no way my shoulder will be fixed by then, gutted!

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    superfli – Member

    I heard that EWS rd6 Whistler was 50km and 3800m climbing… in 1 day….Also no fuel stations, so self sufficient. Would this be classed as Endurance Enduro?

    Jared Graves on that subject…

    “I thought Whistler was maybe a bit too much. I mean, I know I’m at the upper end of the fitness scale when it comes to the top EWS guys, and I know we need to be challenged, but at the same time there needs to be some kind of Enjoyment vs. Toughness scale. If the event isn’t somewhat fun nobody will enter, and I think Whistler turned a lot of people off Enduro at EWS level… I don’t think Whistler this year was the direction the sport needs to be going.”

    This from the pedalliest **** in endurodom.

    But also:

    “Some of the Euros saying “Oh this isn’t enduro” was so single minded.”

    Totally reads STW 😉

    Hob Nob
    Member

    According to my Garmin, 77km for Whistler, 3800m of climbing.

    Yes, it was brutal.

    It was also 90 degrees that day. If I’d worn a FF, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have finished it.

    superfli
    Member

    Hob Nob, it was you I was talking to at QECP the other day regarding EWS Rd6 (and where I got my figures 🙂 ).
    I’m glad even the pros think its too much! That level of fitness required needs to be stamped out asap!

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    Rd1 of UKGE at triscombe in Somerset. I might have to dig out my old d2

    hels
    Member

    I think Insurance costs will be going up massively for Enduro with BC out of the picture. There were a couple of tragic incidents involving spectators at a car rally in Scotland and a DH race in Wales, these will only influence that trend.

    The Scottish Government is conducting a review of Motorsport Event Safety and the results of that will likely trickle down into Mountain Bike events. Land owners are also becoming more risk-averse and aware of their potential liability. You hear stories of FCS guys not signing the land use permission until the BC commissaire has signed a piece of paper saying he approves the safety of the course !

    Add into the mix that Enduro is a new sport with still developing guidelines on the format and safety measures. There is no strong precedent for how the sport is run.

    This means risk aversion, which could mean more mandatory safety equipment so organisers can demonstrate they are mitigating that risk. Or they could take that risk themselves. I know where I would stand on that.

    scottfitz
    Member

    I think Insurance costs will be going up massively for Enduro with BC out of the picture. There were a couple of tragic incidents involving spectators at a car rally in Scotland and a DH race in Wales, these will only influence that trend.

    The Scottish Government is conducting a review of Motorsport Event Safety and the results of that will likely trickle down into Mountain Bike events. Land owners are also becoming more risk-averse and aware of their potential liability. You hear stories of FCS guys not signing the land use permission until the BC commissaire has signed a piece of paper saying he approves the safety of the course !

    Add into the mix that Enduro is a new sport with still developing guidelines on the format and safety measures. There is no strong precedent for how the sport is run.

    This means risk aversion, which could mean more mandatory safety equipment so organisers can demonstrate they are mitigating that risk. Or they could take that risk themselves. I know where I would stand on that.
    Even if the Insurance goes up organisers will not be out of pocket. Not using BC’s expensive sign on and membership system will be a saving.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    Here’s the BC statement

    British Cycling Drop Enduro

    Other than maybe attracting a wider range of participants, I can’t think how its any more risky than other mountain bike events. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one rider death in an event and it was in a WC XC race this year. BC seem a bit petty to be honest.

    hels
    Member

    There are some who see Enduro as essentially racing a DH track with 3 marshals per track, no paramedics and no body armour or proper helmets. I’m not one of them, but there are some about.

    Of course, deciding something is a “DH” track is totally subjective…. its all trails…

    Premier Icon weeksy
    Subscriber

    and in a magazine called Enduro racing in lycra

    What does that tell us?

    I’m too fat to win Enduro races ?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    One thing I was wondering… We do talk a lot about Italy but all I really know about in Italy is the top end. But presumably they have entry level events too, the Florence Funduro or whatever… And it’s hard to believe everyone that ever wanted to put on an enduro in Italy slavishly followed the superenduro format. So, what do they do, anyone know?

    hels – Member

    Of course, deciding something is a “DH” track is totally subjective…. its all trails…

    In just about all of your races, I’ve been relieved to get onto the nice easy downhill tracks, with their well worn lines and predictable surfaces 😆 But then, you do tend to get a harder faster landing, at least on the treacherous mud-cliffs you generally land on the same soggy stuff that caused you to crash

    andyrm
    Member

    In Italy they also have the Superenduro eXperience races – shorter and less tech than the main SE races, but still FF. And looking at all the other smaller ones (run by the likes of Bike Store SRL, Bici di Montagna etc), they too are FF for stages. Will ask all the guys I know out there, but TBH it looks like it’s the accepted way of doing things out there.

    From the SE press release earlier this year:

    What’s the target group of SuperEnduro?
    Everyone who can handle his bike! While most professional riders will concentrate on the Pro-events, beginners may start with the Experience-events. The venues have more to offer than just racing, with amazing landscapes, provision stations with amazing Italian food and the unique atmosphere that makes each event a social meeting point for the whole enduro scene. You will also race shoulder to shoulder with many top-level racers, filling the paddocks with professionalism.

    What’s the difference between PRO and Experience races?
    PRO races are longer than Experience races, but for both types of races you should have a certain level of fitness as special stages have an average time of 5-10 minutes. The definitions are: Experience races have an average height difference of 1000 meters and total sum of the travel-times of the special stages must not exceed 30 minutes, with a minimum total time of 10 minutes. Experience races must comprise at least 3 special stages that take place on at least 2 different routes. Pro races have an average height difference of 1500 meters and total sum of the travel-times of the special stages of 20 minutes. They must have at least 5 Special Stages that take place on at least 2 different routes.

    Format:
    Pro-races are ran over a weekend, with Saturday being the official practice day and the main race on Sunday. If possible you should arrive even earlier as the stages are put up a few days earlier for unofficial practice. Usually there is a prologue the day before race day.

    What protection has to be worn?
    It is obligatory to wear knee and elbow protection as well as a full face helmet and a back protector (or a backpack with integrated back protection) on the special stages. On the transfer stages a open face helmet can be worn, but you must have a helmet on at ALL times. Some racers just wear a full face helmet during the whole race to avoid taking two helmets.

    Is the race open for everybody or only for riders with a valid license?
    Open for both licensed and non-licensed riders, if you don’t have a license you must present a medical certificate and get a day license available upon registration.

    More info: http://www.superenduromtb.com

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Cheers andyrm. I’d forgotten that about the back protectors and licences

Viewing 38 posts - 201 through 238 (of 238 total)

The topic ‘Mandatory Full Face helmets in enduro for 2015’ is closed to new replies.