I don’t see enduro struggling because of full facers.

Go to any trail center and you find hordes of whippet like kids sessioning the downhill and pump tracks on any ebay’d full bouncer their Chrimbo plus Birthday money would stretch to, and if they decide to race and they realise that their not-quite-a-downhill-bike is pretty handy for enduro, that’s somewhere they will go, and they won’t give a stuff about wearing a full face lid cos it’s all they’ve ever known.

One bitter little corner of the web pouring scorn on wearing more than spray on hot pants and a pudding basin to race doesn’t matter to the world. Don’t you all have woodpiles to stroke? 🙂

restricts your vision – hmmmmmmm

Wearing it backwards by any chance?

Northwind – Member

What people are talking about here (I think) is offering something easier, but still recognisably an enduro. So gravity-fed, descent oriented, skills focused, just less hard. Heh, like an early UKGE But nothing at all like XC racing.

what he said, again.

i wouldn’t suggest that ‘Enduro’ needs to be easy, just voicing my support for the idea that it doesn’t need to be hard.

One bitter little corner of the web pouring scorn on wearing more than spray on hot pants and a pudding basin to race doesn’t matter to the world. Don’t you all have woodpiles to stroke?

^^ Genuinely one of the funniest posts I’ve seen on here in a while!

And given that perfectly servicable FF helmets from the likes of 661 are now available very cheaply, there’s a certain irony about blokes with £3k+ carbon full sussers moaning about spending £60-£150 for a helmet.

One bitter little corner of the web pouring scorn on wearing more than spray on hot pants and a pudding basin to race doesn’t matter to the world. Don’t you all have woodpiles to stroke?

Love it! 😆

andyrm – Member

there’s a certain irony about blokes with £3k+ carbon full sussers moaning about spending £60-£150 for a helmet.

i don’t think there’s many people moaning about the price, mostly about the idea of having to carry 2 helmets – 1x full face for the stages, 1x open-face for the climbs.

@andy most people don’t own or ride in full face helmets. To the extent enduro is meant to be like a normal bike ride then a standard helmet should be sufficient as that’s what the vast majority of us wear. The fact is this is all about the organisers liability insurance.

A week late but Northwind’s post is “nailed on”

klumpy – Member

One bitter little corner of the web pouring scorn on wearing more than spray on hot pants and a pudding basin to race doesn’t matter to the world. Don’t you all have woodpiles to stroke?

It’s funny but it’s also 100% ass backwards… Because the only scorn in this thread has been for “not proper enduros” and people assuming that if you don’t wear a full face you’re either a moron, too tight, or only doing easy races and you should probably be doing XC. Even if they’re a 2 time enduro world champion.

Meanwhile I’ve not seen anyone who’s got a problem with other people wearing fullface helmets if they choose. I can understand it, it’s just not right for me.

And it’s hardly one corner of the web- the huge majority of racers in the UK have chosen not to wear full face helmets for racing.

I’d also like to see a more rounded set of skills tested in Enduro.

Timed technical climb stages, along with downhill and single track stages would all be good. Maybe you are great in a decent, maybe great in a climb. Results are usually overall & stage by stage so you would get to see your strong or weak points are.

In XC race you put a lot of cardio effort into the between-technical sections, it’s not so important to ace the technical stuff up or down. Plus you are generally already knackered when you hit technical stuff which can limit your ability to fully go at them. And when I say your, I mean mine. Lol.

Put the word Gravity in front of Enduro you pretty much know what to expect though. Maybe I’ll have to organise a Skills Enduro that me & my mates would want to ride in.

I’d also like to see a more rounded set of skills tested in Enduro.

Timed technical climb stages,

I think there should always be some climbing, for sure, and every one I’ve done has had at least some short linking climbs. Makes it more about the rider than the bike and is my only chance at gaining against everyone on their 160mm mince tanks. The first King/Queen one at glentress had a whole climb stage, my result on that was waaaay higher than the other stages, some of the guys on big bikes were pushing parts of it.

Personally, an uphill stage would make me not enter an enduro!

yet others would love it, choice is great.

I’ve done a couple that have had stages that are entirely climbing. That can **** off frankly! But a bit of climbing inside a stage is commonplace- and I think that’s a good thing. If nothing else, it means you can link trails up which’d be otherwise impossible, or add a bit more physicality into short stages with venues that lack altitude. Nothing quite like a scary technical section when you’re breathing out of your arse.

Yup agreed on climbs. Timed climbs are for XC. I didn’t actually enter an enduro in 2013 as I didn’t like the idea of being “out of time” on a climb, then @scott from QECP explained that’s not how it worked but I’d already missed their 2014 event.

What people are talking about here (I think) is offering something easier, but still recognisably an enduro. So gravity-fed, descent oriented, skills focused, just less hard

As if by magic…

News: Scottish Enduro Series Announces Dates for 2015

The 2015 Series will see the introduction of an Enduro Lite class for riders new to the sport, enabling them to stick their toes in the water and try Enduro. Enduro Lite will involve shorter routes and miss some of the more technical stages.

I like that, good idea!

enduro is meant to be like a normal bike ride

But its not. The magazines jumped on board and said wow this is great its “like” riding with your mates, which in some respects it is, but the difference is that you are RACING, therefore you’ll generally be pushing harder than you normally would, you’ll more than likely be going quick enough that you’d probably do yourself some proper damage if you accidentally use your face as a brake.

Watch this from 3 mins to the end. She wouldn’t have been getting up as quick without one.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7dXxvG_zcU[/video]

Oops, too slow to edit, have another post

The first King/Queen of the Hill race had an interesting idea- 6 stages, of which the results of 5 counted, and 2 were climbs. So you could pour a load of energy into the climbs but you’d probably regret it later (combined, they went almost the entire height of glentress), or do what most people did and just write one off. And it has an effect on what people do with bikes, tyres etc which trades off into the downhill stages. There was no way you could win it on the climbs of course- though a good result on a climb stage had more impact than a good result on a short descent I suppose

All pretty interesting and introduced a new level of racecraft but I’m glad to see the back of it myself. Thing is though you wouldn’t ride the day as a whole and say “that’s #unduro because it had climb stages”- it was still definitely an enduro, and the day was mostly about the descending. (one stage was almost identical to an EWS stage)

If you’re not pushing hard on the descents on a normal ride, what exactly ARE you doing? Riding downhill as fast as I can is the point of riding down a hill.

FWIW I never entered a UKGE as they are obnoxiously expensive. I entered some of the Innerleithen MTB Racing ones which were great, doing exactly the sorts of rides I normally do at Inners- some DH tracks, some of the trail centre. But I crashed loads, because I got a panicky race head on, and don’t do them anymore. I did them all with an open face helmet as normal- balls to doing them in a full facer.

If you’re not pushing hard on the descents on a normal ride, what exactly ARE you doing?

I didn’t say i hung around looking at the scenery but in a race i think for most people the red mist comes down to some extent so you will probably push a bit harder, also there are more chance of making mistakes due to

panicky race head

as you put it.

Anyone would think wearing a FF is akin to putting your head up Satans Arsehole. 😀

Interesting that the topic has moved onto the perceived difficulty of events…

Obviously, difficulty is different for each person, but, surely, whatever your level and whatever difficulty of course you deem hard, in a race, you’ll be pushing yourself and in pushing yourself you have greater potential to get it wrong.

So, surely, a mandatory FF rule is the only sensible option.

And if you aren’t pushing your boundaries in a race then, well, what’s the point?

Race pace is very different to a post work pub ride with your mates pace.

I’ll enjoy the descents and ride them quick enough but it’s definitely not the 110% you give in a race – for one thing it just isn’t worth the risks you’d take against the clock.

munrobiker – Member

If you’re not pushing hard on the descents on a normal ride, what exactly ARE you doing? Riding downhill as fast as I can is the point of riding down a hill.

a) sometimes it’s nice just to pootle
b) I keep a lid on it on shared paths
c) if you’re not pushing hard on the CLIMBS on a normal ride, what exactly are you doing?
d) “I can’t keep up my full tilt, full power, red hot, maximum pace all the time. I’ve got to take the odd breather, haven’t I?”

^^ Exactly

munrobiker – Member

If you’re not pushing hard on the descents on a normal ride, what exactly ARE you doing? Riding downhill as fast as I can is the point of riding down a hill.

Having fun.

jambalaya – Member
Yup agreed on climbs. Timed climbs are for XC. I didn’t actually enter an enduro in 2013 as I didn’t like the idea of being “out of time” on a climb, then @scott from QECP explained that’s not how it worked but I’d already missed their 2014 event.

better keep an eye out for the 2 races in 2015 then 😉

If you’re not pushing hard on the descents on a normal ride, what exactly ARE you doing?

Going slower to go faster.

doing exactly the sorts of rides I normally do at Inners- some DH tracks, some of the trail centre. But I crashed loads

This rule will only apply to certain events if you don’t like it don’t race or choose a event that doesn’t have the rule, simple!

jamesfts – Member

Race pace is very different to a post work pub ride with your mates pace.

But then most people’s post work pub ride is unlikely to take you down enduro-style routes. If I’m out doing that sort of riding, it’s at race pace- I’ll stop more often, mid-stage frinstance but when I’m moving it’s the same. Or faster, because I’ve had a rest! Most of my personal bests on the race stages round here are on normal rides- just the balance of probability I suppose, I do more runs not in races.

snorkelsucker – Member

So, surely, a mandatory FF rule is the only sensible option.

And if you aren’t pushing your boundaries in a race then, well, what’s the point?

I push my descending boundaries in XC racing too, and generally on less capable machinery too. (or endurance racing rather- I’ve never done a proper XC race) So should I wear a fullface for that as well? Pushing your boundaries doesn’t mean rolling the dice and crashing all the time- crashing is slow.

The irony of all this is, I’m a stormtrooper- I wore my kneepads soloing the glentress seven, I wear elbow pads for xc rides even though other people think that’s weird, people take the piss sometimes. Exact same decision process as not wearing a fullface for enduro

Tell you something- the medical argument for mandatory kneepads is going to be far stronger than the argument for fullface. So where do you stop?

Kneepads are not mandatory? 😯

But then a post work pub ride is unlikely to take you down enduro-style routes. If I’m out doing that sort of riding, it’s at race pace- I’ll stop more often, mid-stage frinstance but when I’m moving it’s the same. Or faster, because I’ve had a rest!

Fair point, maybe ‘very different’ is an overstatement but I’d still say I ride slightly differently when racing, whether thats taking greater risks/committing more or getting on the pedals harder and brakes later. Knowing you’re on a closed trail with marshals and medics on hand can make a (subconscious?) difference too.

I’m not saying I don’t ride flat out when not racing, just more often than not it’s backed off just a touch.

I haven’t really weighed in on FF debate so far… whilst I haven’t felt the need to wear one so far I can understand the argument. Rules are rules, everyone will be in the same boat.

I agree when I’m not racing or going race pace I back off. I really feel the difference. When I’m doing my race pace psychologically I’m not just thinking about consequences only focused on going flat out and technique, with a mental thought about a clock ticking.

Kneepads are not mandatory?

No, but then everyone wears them anyway and to be fair, most knee injuries wouldn’t be life threatening unlike a facial/head injury which could be.

facial/head injury

eye baths at the end of ever stage needed.

I wonder if next years SES will be bringing out a similar FF rule for the full on Enduros while the Enduro Lite series would just need HF given they’d be less technical. That would appease the people saying its making it harder for beginners cos of costs.

I wonder if next years SES will be bringing out a similar FF rule for the full on Enduros while the Enduro Lite series would just need HF given they’d be less technical. That would appease the people saying its making it harder for beginners cos of costs.

I really hope they don’t do that. I’m almost certainly not going to be racing in the ‘lite’ category and can not be arsed lugging a full face around all day. Whether the stages have climbs in them or not, you still have to get up the hill (1200m of climbing in last weekends SES, twice if you practised the whole thing) and doing that in a full face is hot and highly unenjoyable. Whatever Enduro becomes, it should still be enjoyable.

I’d also like to see a more rounded set of skills tested in Enduro.

Timed technical climb stages, along with downhill and single track stages would all be good.

+1.

Technical climbs – fitness
DH – fitness + skill
Singletrack- fitness

Hardly the most rounded setup

I’d also like to see a more rounded set of skills tested in Enduro.
Timed technical climb stages, along with downhill and single track stages would all be good.

put one on see how it sells! P.s good luck

legend – Member

Technical climbs – fitness
DH – fitness + skill
Singletrack- fitness

+ skill, for technical climbing and singletrack.