M4 vs XT – in terms of power?

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  • M4 vs XT – in terms of power?
  • thomthumb
    Member

    let 5 psi out each tyre 8)

    I would imagine you would need to get him the M4s then. They have 4 pistons (rather than the 2 of your XTs and the 3 of his minis) and will therefore have more stopping power. I dont imagine there would be too much difference between the XTs and the minis in terms of stopping power but you could tell him to go out on your bike and see how he copes with the XTs before you fork out for M4s…
    If you get M4s off here, then you may well be able to sell the minis easily. Alternatively, the M4s will work with the same lever as he will already have for his minis. Therefore you could save money by buying M4 calipers (and pads) without the lever and hoses…

    chvck
    Member

    I was running minis for quite a while before i swapped them for a pair of M4s I had on another bike and I much, much prefer them. I didn’t relly need extra stopping power but I find the modulation on the m4s is much better and find them a much nicer brake generally! Sadly can’t say anything about the XTs as I’ve never used them.

    sofatester
    Member

    How much does he weigh and how fast does he ride? As im quite large, 95Kg and use XT brakes/160mm rotors. Never have any problems stopping with just one finger. Why is he struggling with Minis?

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    I don’t think there’d be much between the XT and the mnis TBH. How long since they’ve been bled? Can make a huge difference if it’s been a while

    thomthumb
    Member

    I’d say the majority of people have pretty poor braking technique. You can get most bikes to stop in a couple of bike lengths, on 160s, from 30mph with correct technique.

    My hubby could do with a bit more power than his mono minis are able to deliver. We’re thinking of getting him some M4s but as I have 08 XTs on my bike and am a lightweight, I was wondering whether we could just swap…

    How do the XTs compare with the M4s – are they on a par power wise? Or would he be better off with M4s. (Is one superior to the other in other ways?)

    Also, on a related note, would I regret the swap?!

    What do you reckon? Worth doing or shoudl eb just fork out for some new (well off classifieds) M4s?

    (Btw, he really does over-power the minis and already has decent sized rotors)

    Premier Icon Tiboy
    Subscriber

    Can’t let that go unanswered thomthumb, MM’s hubby isn’t suffering from bad technique, if you seriously think that 160mm rotors are adequate for most people then why do gravity riders use larger ones, can’t help thinking there’s more to it than technique!?

    I rode the wall with him yesterday and there were a couple of bits on the descent where he couldn’t stop as quickly as he would have liked, and no his rear wheels wasn’t skidding, there simply isn’t enough friction being produced by the brakes to slow him down. This also makes me think his technique is good as he isn’t causing the wheels to lock up.

    Premier Icon brakeswithface
    Subscriber

    Are you sure his brakes don’t just need bleeding or new pads?

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    What size rotors? What bike / riding? How ‘big’ (ahem) is Mr_MM?

    Thanks Tiboy – very glad you were there to defend Mr MM’s technique!

    Thanks to everyone else for your comments too.

    Just to clear it up – he’s a very good rider but he is a big chap, which means he comes downhill pretty quick!

    The brakes are regularly bled, properly set up and as Tiboy says, used with good technique. I think it’s just that he’s faster and heavier than most riders.

    As I said thanks for the comments, but as no one has directly compared the XTs with Minis, I reckon it might be worth a try (if we can be bothered), but we might just opt for the M4s – as they’re prettier anyway!

    Cheers everyone! MM

    I’m with thomthumb on this. I have minis on 160s on my solo. Single finger braking will lock either wheel on any surface – tarmac with slicks, gravel with knobblies. Its all about the right pads and the right set up.

    Got M4s on the tandem – only just good enough. I would say M4s are not much more powerful than minis.

    I weigh 80 kgs BTW

    Pauly
    Member

    I had M4’s and now have new XT which I far prefer; better modulation and more powerful. Why don’t you just swap and see how he gets on with the XTs? If he likes them then you don’t have to buy any more!

    ozzybmx
    Member

    Had 2009 XT’s , now Tech M4’s …. no contest . M4’s are way better… more powerful, better adjustment , look 10 times better, better modulation…. + every imaginable spare part if something breaks.

    Premier Icon neil853
    Subscriber

    i’ve had mono mini’s and i also found them underpowered. i had them on a light weight hardtail and they were ok for that but would be no where near powerful enough for my full sus.

    my mate has a pair of 08 (i think they’re ok) with the servo wave levers and they are more powerful, the thing is though the hopes will have more modulation, a better feel.

    i’ve just upgraded my XTR’s on my ransom to the new 4 pot saints and the difference is huge!

    hope that helps?

    psychle
    Member

    Can I put in a suggestion for Formula brakes? Tons of power and modulation, I weigh in at around 95kg kitted out and never ever have problems with a lack of stopping power… just my 2 cents really 🙂

    Though maybe the parts/service side of things isn’t as good as Hope perhaps?

    I believe one aspect with the hopes is that they have exchanged initial bite for modulation, They don’t have the initial bite of other brakes I have tried – due to leverage ratios and stuff. Far more controlable tho IMO / IME Ultimately tho they still have enough power to exceed the grip. If yours don’t then they are not working properly

    It comes down to which type of lever feel you want – modulation or initial bite.

    The other aspect is that hopes have total rebuildability ( is that a word) and great back up. Want a set that never needs replaced – get hopes. Want something that is great now but in five years will need to be binned – get shitmano.

    Oh – and the japanese are responsible for albatrosses going gay – as good a reason as any not to buy owt from them. Do you want to be responsible for the extinction of the albatross?

    bomberman
    Member

    the k24s i tried were like wood, and i ride BB7s.

    aren’t M4’s heavy?

    psychle
    Member

    I use the Puro’s which are just a blinged up version of the K24 aren’t they? I find them excellent. each to their own I guess 🙂

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    Want something that is great now but in five years will need to be binned – get shitmano.

    Jesus, you talk some shit sometimes

    Try getting parts for 5 yr old shitmano?

    Want something that is great now but in five years will need to be binned – get shitmano.

    TJ is right – you cant replace parts with shimano. I’ve just killed a set of xtr calipers after 3 years riding because the pistons and caliper body have worn. I’ve moved to hopes for the very reason that I can replace any part when it wears out…

    4 pistons isn’t necessarily more powerful than 2. Its the same lever, so the force is distrusted over a greater area, which means less pressure and less friction.

    If you need more power, try a larger rotor.

    Mini’s should be reasonably powerful though, so maybe try taking the rotor off and cleaning it and fitting new pads.

    distrusted = distributed

    Tombthumb.. “You can get most bikes to stop in a couple of bike lengths, on 160s, from 30mph with correct technique”

    Let’s see, 30MPH = 13.4 Metres per sec. Stopping in 2 bike lengths = 3 metres. Acceleration = 30Mps^2. That’s 3G. Disregarding the force equivalent to nearly quarter of a tonne pushing you off the front of the saddle, in terms of grip and balance, that’s the same as being able to track-stand facing nose down on a 71 degree slope without either slipping or falling over forwards.

    So if you can stop like that, you have some amazing technique most of us lack. Let us in on it:)

    Premier Icon shortcut
    Subscriber

    mountaincarrot – you remind me of some people i know / work with.

    Sweet!

    tinsy
    Member

    I have the Black and gold M4’s on one bike and the old style XTR on the other, I dont find there is much between them in power but the XTR’s modulate better and are cheap to build up a set of brakes.

    Mountaincarrot, I made it a 72.8 deg slope, you might want to re do your calculations.. 🙂

    Premier Icon iainc
    Subscriber

    I run xt’s with 160mm rotors on the HT and Mono Minis with 180mm rotors on the FS. The Hope’s are more effective/powerful. Both are set up perfectly……….

    hicksville
    Member

    Try Magura Louise, great brakes

    Premier Icon Tiboy
    Subscriber

    Horatiohufnagel, nothing person but your explanation is complete nonsense. Having a larger piston area at the caliper does not mean that the ‘force’ is distributed across a greater area. Hydraulics is based on the piston at the lever being much smaller than the piston at the caliper, so a long distance moved by the lever piston will cause a short distance to be moved by the caliper piston. The ratio of the cross-sectional areas of the pistons will determine the ratio of the distances moved by the pistons. So for example if the lever piston is 1cm2 and the total area of the two(mono mini) pistons at the caliper is 4cm2, the caliper pistons will move a quarter of the distance. Conversely the force applied will be inversely proportional to this, so for the example of the minis the force applied to the lever piston will be multiplied by 4 at the caliper. If you’re with me so far you’ll understand that larger caliper pistons, or more of them, will result in a shorter distance moved, but a greater force applied, and thus more braking power (all other things being equal). Friction being related in the main to force times area of pad applied. Hope this makes sense to all.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    Ive got minis m4s and xts 🙂
    IMO power wise the setups I’ve used go in this order
    monoM4/oldM4 180/185mm
    XT 160/160mm (latest model with servo)
    mono Mini 180/160mm

    Its pretty damn close between the mini and the xt, so close that I’ve decided to keep the minis on my etsx cos they are quite a bit lighter. (xts rate higher cos they were 160s) On my heckler tho the m4s will be staying, top stoppers.

    shoefiti
    Member

    i cook 160 rotor either mini or marta on long downhill and find the braking isn’ there when/if i need it and i’m only 73kg besides the g-force thing whichis funny i’d go with the louise reply – 180 front 160 rear louise or louise FR will be ideal – light weight and more power than m4’s.

    ozzybmx
    Member

    4 pistons isn’t necessarily more powerful than 2. Its the same lever, so the force is distrusted over a greater area, which means less pressure and less friction.

    Absolutely correct , forgetting about the XT brakes as far as im concerned .

    HOPE tech M4 have 4 pistons , the even more powerful tech hope V2 are a slightly heavier option , they have 2 massive pistons that are aimed at the serious downhill/freeride market. I was tossing up over the M4 and V2 but the M4 was the happy medium.

    Also when i got the M4 i shortened the hoses myself for the first time ever messing with hydraulic brakes in 1 hour with nothing but a few common tools and a 100ml bottle of DOT5.1

    Bloody awesome brakes , im my opinion there is no comparison between hope and XT as i have said already above.

    V2 – 2 massive pistons , downhill/freeride brakes

    M4 – 4 pistons , AM/freeride brakes

    Pic of mine with tech M4 brakes

    Honestly , there is no point getting big brakes if you dont need them , i tossed up over a FR bike , but AM was best suited to me , same with your brakes , get what you need , there is a very slight weight difference over M4 v XT but the floating rotors and braided hoses aren’t just for show ! braided hoses are more responsive , stops the elastic effect , floating rotors are lighter and disappate heat alot better.

    ozzybmx
    Member

    Guys , hope minis and M4’s are not in the same league .

    johnners
    Member

    I run Mono M4s, XT (older 2 piston with no servo wave) and old style Minis on my bikes, and I’ve used Mono Minis on hire bikes for a couple of weeks in the Pyrenees, all with 180mm or thereabouts rotors. I weigh about 100kg in bike mode.

    They’re all plenty powerful enough, they’ve all got good modulation, they’re all perfectly good brakes.

    I’d say that if you’re experiencing a lack of power from your Mono Minis then they’re either not set up properly, they need a bleed or your pads/and or rotors are contaminated. Or the pads are a rubbish compound.

    ozzybmx
    Member

    Jonners , i was sceptical about shortening my hoses as my brakes worked perfectly (so i thought) …. after i did a self-bleed , they worked better than they did from the factory .

    So yes , i recommend a bleed of hope to get the best out of them .

    You dont need a bleed kit like you do with other brakes , just a few allen keys , some fluid and 2 x 8mm spanners.

    ozzybmx
    Member

    BTW , minis have their place as do M4’s as do V2’s .

    They all perform brilliantly in the class they are meant for …. and the riders weight 🙄

    dicky
    Member

    My Avid Elixir’s seem way more powerful than my M4’s. I’d take a look at the Avid’s if you are in the market for a new set of brakes.

    hicksville
    Member

    as with all things on forums it comes down to personal I have this and I like it, if you have decided it is a choice btween hopes and xt great. In our family hope brakes have been fine as have xts, avids two pairs 5 and 7s were awful brakes with no end of problems sticking pistons, leaking and so on. At 210lbs i use the magura louise fr 180/160 in the pryennes last year stopped me, bike and trailer over loaded with much brake dragging down 2,500mtrs no problems. For me they have the best lever and feel, no problems other than bed the brake pads in, I have stillgot an originial 4 pot xt and it is great never been bleed. Btween the xt and the hope, go for the hope back up is fantastic.

    ozzybmx
    Member

    i have had … in this order , juicy 5, shimano LX , juicy 7 , elixir R, elixir CR, shimano XT , hope tech M4’s.

    I have spent a lot of cash in the last 2 years and listened to a lot of people …. i have hit the nail on the head for AM riding .

    ozzybmx
    Member

    I have never had maguras but have heard many many good reports , might give them a go at some stage ….. if the hopes EVER FAIL !

    thomthumb
    Member

    71 degree slope without either slipping or falling over forwards.

    useless analogy.

    there are more than brakes involved, tyres and technique are imo more important. what tyre pressure is the op’s fella running and what tyres. I’m always shocked by the high pressure that people run on there bikes, and how pants this makes braking power. if he’s running more than 30psi he needs to let them down.

    the trick to gaining more braking power is to gain more traction so that you can use power that would normally lock up the wheels, and to throw the bodyweight backwards so that power that would normally throw you off the front of the bike will stop you.

    if the brakes don’t lock up on gravel/ tarmac then somethings wrong.

    coffeeking
    Member

    I have a mini on the rear of mine, 165 – takes a lot of finger force for me to lock it up and it’s lined up to a T with new pads. I can actually see the caliper flex under braking – was never confidence inspiring and wouldnt use one up front. They just dont cope with my mass – my mate has borrowed my bike and found no problems with them but he is almost literally half my weight. My DH4 however is a different matter and I’d disagree with TJ, based on that one alone, that not all of hopes brakes exchange bite for modulation – the DH4 bites really nicely but also is very smoothly adjustable – its the best brake I’ve ever had on a bike.

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