Molgrips

How would you have preferred to have been told?

Scotroutes already answered 😉
..I’ll jump to the end and answer backwards

I think you are starting off from a negative premise here – that apps are bad, and that you are objecting to them becoming prevalent. But if you see them as a positive thing, then their prevalence is also positive.

For example, in your barbecue example, without some kind of bulk messaging platform someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message. This is much more work for the organiser and also a lot more intrusive for those being called. The app in this case should have made life easier. I agree that FB isn’t necessarily the best platform for this though because many people have privacy concerns. WhatsApp is better for this.

Of course, they should have made it clear that the barbecue would be arranged on a specific platform beforehand rather than just assumed, but that’s not the app’s fault.

So working backwards a bit…
Yes… they should have made it clear not just assumed everyone would have FB and actually be “following”

How to inform people? Well to be blunt that’s her problem … she was asking for a day of parents time to raise money and I would have had better things to do than spend it in a field selling lucky dip… let alone her deciding to cancel it because she suddenly had something better to do. TBH I can’t remember if it was a Sat or Sun but I’m pretty sure the reason wasn’t “weather” or “illness” etc…. (I’m not even sure a reason was actually given?)

The lists of who was bringing what and doing what were all organised by email so sending an email and asking for a reply to confirm receipt would seem a first step and then get on a bike and go and put a note under the door if anyone didn’t reply.

Just to add some detail she didn’t tell the caretaker (or whoever had got up and gone and unlocked the gates)…. or any of the parents/grandparents who’d seen the posters or fliers and presumably turned up after…

she thought some post on social media was good enough.

One point here is switching communications platforms… if you start on one then keep to it. Especially you have asked people for their valuable time .. I view it as extremely rude not to even both sending an email… I guess it might have meant her getting up and turning on a computer or even going into school or something… was there time to send notes homes with kids dunno??

Someone had been and unlocked the gates… I wasn’t the first to arrive so I assume the caretaker?

FB/WhatApp .. whatever… it’s still making an assumption I’m OK with the TOS of that platform.

I think you are starting off from a negative premise here – that apps are bad, and that you are objecting to them becoming prevalent. But if you see them as a positive thing, then their prevalence is also positive.

It’s not the specific App or perhaps even Apps. Someone will decide and then start telling others what they should use. (I happen to agree WhatsApp would be better but that’s not the point)
Its the assumption I’d actually use it or check it or even want to carry or turn on a phone at any specific time/place or use AND MANAGE a specific platform/app etc. or have a smartphone at all.

They are all intermixed and as much as anything its the behaviours around them.

I go back to the appliance and my camera thing. I don’t turn up on a ride and someone expects I have a pro camera. It doesn’t require maintenance and updates (other than keeping battery health) .. etc. etc.
I can turn just it off or not take it and no consequences .. so it’s being used as an appliance I can use or not.

There are obviously some advantages to Apps/Smartphones… but for me there are some red lines mainly around behaviours and for me these far far outweigh the advantages. I don’t want “we sent a notification” type stuff, I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.

she was asking for a day of parents time to raise money and I would have had better things to do than spend it in a field selling lucky dip

Well I was going to say I’m sure she did too, but it turns out she apparently went and did that instead. But let’s assume she had a good reason – she’d planned to give up her day just as you had for the same altruistic reasons, so not really her problem – more like all of yours. But yes, of course she handled it badly for a variety of non-app-related reasons. As for email – that is pull messaging i.e. you check it when you want to, not push messaging where it pings you. You may object to push messaging but sometimes a message needs to be transmitted urgently. A phone call after all is a push message.

I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.

But you still want to be able to use all the services that are done through phones – for many good reasons. That’s like saying you don’t want to start your car for a month but you still want to drive places. Everything is a compromise.

but for me there are some red lines mainly around behaviours

Hmm an interesting point. Do phones enable more people to behave badly than before, in new ways? Perhaps. But then, people have been behaving badly for millennia haven’t they?

I don’t want “we sent a notification” type stuff, I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.

Then how do you want to be told of things about which you need to know?

OP is modern day Jason Bourne?

It would be quite hard work to live in modern world without smart phones apps and without leaving digital footprints.

…. and because of that expectation that I’m happy to download and configure some App to do a (often one off) task then either have to delete it or manage it somehow.

Two things here:

1) This is a ‘managing expectations’ issue. I carry a phone for my benefit, not for everyone else’s. I’m not at your beck and call.

2) Kinda related to the above is a self-control issue. If the phone rings and it’s not convenient for me to answer it, I’ll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we’ll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she’ll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. “But it might be important!” Honey, I’m fairly sure that no-one ever went “help, the house is on fire” via text message. Drives me insane.

A perhaps extreme example (but I’m using it because it wraps a lot up) is I’m sat in a field with a small group (6 or 7) of other parents having carried BBQ’s/Gazebo’s and the like to volunteer my time (and Gazebo)to a fund raising Fete.
After 1/2 hour we start wondering WTF … there should be 30-40 parents and some teachers and stuff… after an hour someone turns their phone on and calls the head teacher to be told “Oh we cancelled it on Facebook, you should have seen it”.

This is nothing to do with the technology, it’s just poor communication. The head equally could have put a sign up on the Church noticeboard and made the same argument. As you say yourself, switching channels was the problem here. If they’d told you they were using Facebook for further updates then you’d have had the opportunity to communicate that you’re not on Facebook; I doubt you’d have been the only one.

How to inform people? Well to be blunt that’s her problem …

It’s not, though, is it. It may be her responsibility, but it’s your problem when you’re the one sat in a field on your own.

—

in your barbecue example, without some kind of bulk messaging platform someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message.

Wouldn’t have worked, Steve said “After 1/2 hour… someone turns their phone on” so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.

Steve said “After 1/2 hour… someone turns their phone on” so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.

sounds like he’s “found his tribe” though, as they say 😃
(Meanwhile everyone else was off enjoying their weekend 😉)

When I was a kid I once cycled a long way on a sub-zero morning in my normal clothes to meet a ‘friend’ at a location near his house, so he could guide me the last few miles. He didn’t show up, leaving me sat freezing on a bench for an hour before riding back home again. No phone apps were involved. If I’d had a phone I’d have WhatsApped him. Actually no, if I’d had a phone I’d have used Google Maps to find his address and cycled directly there.

It’s not the specific App or perhaps even Apps. Someone will decide and then start telling others what they should use. (I happen to agree WhatsApp would be better but that’s not the point)
Its the assumption I’d actually use it or check it or even want to carry or turn on a phone at any specific time/place or use AND MANAGE a specific platform/app etc. or have a smartphone at all.

Yet you’re perfectly fine with email as a communication medium? Something which is very easy to simply not check (unless you have an app on your phone with push notifications enabled but, well, here we are again…)

Fundamentally, you want something that isn’t intrusive which is fair enough, yet are describing a real-world scenario where you needed something to intrude briefly in order to notify you of the change of plans. You can’t complain about a lack of communication when you’re actively going out of your way to be as unreachable as possible.

And, a note through everyone’s door, really? You seriously think that’s a valid alternative to a quick “message to all” which would take seconds from someone who may be ill in bed? That’s veering dangerously into the realms of you never being invited to anything ever again because you’re too much like hard work.

If the phone rings and it’s not convenient for me to answer it, I’ll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we’ll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she’ll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. “But it might be important!” Honey, I’m fairly sure that no-one ever went “help, the house is on fire” via text message. Drives me insane.

https://images.app.goo.gl/CPYgXvPgk5dnCise7

Molgrips …
I seem to need to answer these all backwards …

Then how do you want to be told of things about which you need to know?

In general I don’t want to be required to “need to know”… or to put another way I’d like to minimise the things that others decide I need to know and how I find out or take some action or inaction if I don’t.

For example the fete has been advertised on posters and fliers… presumably because they recognised many people wouldn’t have known if they just stuck it on FB and they’d be losing money…

In general these “need to know” things seem to disadvantage me or certainly don’t overlap well with what I would have wanted to know..

if I might give an example of a notification you just paid for another year subscription for example whereas what I’d have wanted to know is a link to cancel my subscription in plenty of time or even better a “back up your data and unsubscribe”.

So I’m not so naive as to think that’s actually going to happen…. so instead I’d rather just cancel all these subscriptions and remove the need to be notified they just took some money off me.
(Yeah, I just paid for this thing I didn’t actually want for another year… but you and I know in another year we’d be in the same place so just cancel it now) {that’s a helpful hint hopefully}

So having got rid of this information overload we (I REALLY REALLY doubt this is just me and you if people were honest) end up with far less of this “need to be informed” stuff and we can then prioritise other stuff (like Tax submissions, council tax etc. all that stuff we get fined for)

So that aside though…the kid came home from cadets yesterday saying “Your being sent an email with a link to pay for my smock” … and indeed I did and a very nice email it was saying how he’s a credit to me and had explained it would be better if they just sent me a link not used the App.

Hmm an interesting point. Do phones enable more people to behave badly than before, in new ways? Perhaps. But then, people have been behaving badly for millennia haven’t they?

Not just phones but perhaps centred around them.
So yeah to take a random example … sure people have been bullying others for more than millennia but the ease and enablement of cyberbullying (at least to me) seems exponentially larger ..

But yes, of course she handled it badly for a variety of non-app-related reasons. As for email – that is pull messaging i.e. you check it when you want to, not push messaging where it pings you. You may object to push messaging but sometimes a message needs to be transmitted urgently. A phone call after all is a push message.

The difference (IMHO) is the degree of depersonalisation.
At one end she turns up or get someone else to, apologises to whoever got up to unlock and at the other she “posts something”
(Reminds me of the interview with Hislop and Merton)

“What if you make a plan”
“Erm.. you turn up”

Equally and not limited to but again easier to depersonalise…

In general I don’t want to be required to “need to know”… or to put another way I’d like to minimise the things that others decide I need to know and how I find out or take some action or inaction if I don’t.

Ok but in that case you shouldn’t have agreed to be involved in organising the barbecue. I mean I understand the need, but you need to understand your own limitations here. This is why I rarely do stuff like that.

Information overload I can understand. I mean, I’m very good at ignoring stuff – too good, in fact – but I can understand how you wouldn’t be. That’s a thing about modern life though. Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send. Netflix wants to send me notifications, but I said no – and this is done at the phone OS level so there’s nothing they can do about it.

Yes, it’s work to get life the way you want it, but once done it should stay that way. Each thing you subscribe to, you manage it and make it work the way you want – then forget about it.

Cougar

Yet you’re perfectly fine with email as a communication medium? Something which is very easy to simply not check (unless you have an app on your phone with push notifications enabled but, well, here we are again…)

Yes and No…. literally “pick one” but preferably one doesn’t require a proprietary app with TOS I have to read, keep maintained and updated etc.
As you say elsewhere ” If they’d told you they were using Facebook for further updates then you’d have had the opportunity to communicate that you’re not on Facebook; I doubt you’d have been the only one.”

Yep.. depending by what “on facebook” means… (as in not active) and she could have gone and found other volunteers… same for Tik-sta-gram .. Teams etc. Sorry not using/installing find someone else if using that channel/platform is more important to you than volunteers.

Fundamentally, you want something that isn’t intrusive which is fair enough, yet are describing a real-world scenario where you needed something to intrude briefly in order to notify you of the change of plans. You can’t complain about a lack of communication when you’re actively going out of your way to be as unreachable as possible.

As I said answering Molgrips… minimise it. If its **NEEDED** (someone’s texting your GF that their house is burning down) but it’s a case of “digital overload”. don’t for want of a better way to put it send a Email with subject URGENT ACTION REQUIRED and expect I’m amused when it’s content is please choose your favourite colour..
or for a matter send an email (or letter) from pension company saying “URGENT LAST CHANCE” if it isn’t….

And, a note through everyone’s door, really? You seriously think that’s a valid alternative to a quick “message to all” which would take seconds from someone who may be ill in bed? That’s veering dangerously into the realms of you never being invited to anything ever again because you’re too much like hard work.

Maybe I miswrite or you misread.. letter under door of people didn’t reply to the email.
As for not being invited I made it pretty clear I didn’t want to be invited to volunteer for anything if leaving people stood in a field is not even worthy of an apology.

Steve said “After 1/2 hour… someone turns their phone on” so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.

We spent 1/2 hour putting up gazebos and stuff… who had phones switched on and who didn’t I don’t know TBH and I’ve forgotten what the excuse was but I’m 100% sure she wasn’t ill nor it was the weather.

Kinda related to the above is a self-control issue. If the phone rings and it’s not convenient for me to answer it, I’ll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we’ll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she’ll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. “But it might be important!” Honey, I’m fairly sure that no-one ever went “help, the house is on fire” via text message. Drives me insane.

Some people are better at this than others….
In my case I’ve had a employer sending email at 0200 in the morning, CC’d to “The world” demanding why I haven’t answered or filled out and submitted some form whilst I’m flying 10 mins later.

Why are you so obsessed with Terms of Service?

Yes and No…. literally “pick one” but preferably one doesn’t require a proprietary app with TOS I have to read, keep maintained and updated etc.

Sure. But if instead they’d emailed you, would you have noticed in time?

don’t for want of a better way to put it send a Email with subject URGENT ACTION REQUIRED and expect I’m amused when it’s content is please choose your favourite colour..

Has that ever happened in the history of like the last 30 years? All of these apps you’re railing against supplanted that sort of nonsense via email decades ago.

Maybe I miswrite or you misread.. letter under door of people didn’t reply to the email.

OK, but the point stands. You’re the one talking about expectations, do you think that it’s a reasonable expectation of yours to have someone to hand-write notes (after all, we can’t expect everyone to have a printer) and then drive who knows how far around town popping them through letterboxes for no other reason than you’re too obstinate to accept any other form of communication?

In my case I’ve had a employer sending email at 0200 in the morning

So have I. So what? I’m not on call, I’ll read it when I’m in work later.

I almost certainly wouldn’t have noticed until the following morning anyway, unless they’d emailed my personal account and I was still up from the night before. My work phone gets switched off or at least put on silent when I’m not in work and I don’t take any communications devices into the bedroom.

Why are you so obsessed with Terms of Service?

I’m not obsessed, I just read any legal contract before agreeing to it.

Has that ever happened in the history of like the last 30 years?

I’ve had “FINAL CHANCE – PEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETAILS NOW” from pension. Then in the body “You have 2 weeks to respond”
to provide information they already had. (Happens to be on my desk as I type)

OK, but the point stands. You’re the one talking about expectations, do you think that it’s a reasonable expectation of yours to have someone to hand-write notes (after all, we can’t expect everyone to have a printer) and then drive who knows how far around town popping them through letterboxes for no other reason than you’re too obstinate to accept any other form of communication?

School selection is distance from gate in a straight line and its not far…. but either way she changed the plans of lots of parents so she needs (is Responsible and Accountable) to Inform having skipped Consult.
TBH can’t remember what her excuse was but I was far from the only one thought it was bollocks.
If I said it was because she had an important meeting the next day and her personal stylist was a bit booked up and she didn’t want to have to use a different stylist it would be that sort of level of excuse. (I’m not even sure I know what it was.. lots of parents were furious including those who did see the FB post and talk at school gates)

Quite honestly I don’t think she would have dared to do that F2F…. but behind the anonymity of a FB post

I almost certainly wouldn’t have noticed until the following morning anyway

Yep by which time its been escalated in other continents and you are on a formal warning and PIP

Yep by which time its been escalated in other continents and you are on a formal warning and PIP

If that really is the case, which I doubt, then your employer is just utterly crap in more ways than one….

It’s not normal to be expected to read emails / notice SMSes at 2 in the morning unless you are specifically paid to be at work (or on call) at that time.

Obviously I don’t know you from Adam, but the pop phycologist in me would suggest a diagnosis of techno-phobia which seems to be affecting your quality of life as you seem to spend way too much time worrying about things (like Terms or Service which only lawyers read). You seem to be inventing problems to then worry about. Some CBT might go a long way to resolving your problems.

I have nothing to add other than this thread is brilliant. The idea that a person/people are willing to neglect tech to make their lives harder is crazy life is too short to waste on this stuff. But i guess while you’re in a line waiting for a bank to open or be seen at least you have time to kill so can read all those terms of services to decide if you want to use an app or not. I have never read a terms of service in my life thats just long.

@Molgrips

All appreciated … I guess this is the whole thing.

Yes, it’s work to get life the way you want it, but once done it should stay that way. Each thing you subscribe to, you manage it and make it work the way you want – then forget about it.

You set it up and then didn’t cancel… then later feel shit because you didn’t?

Information overload I can understand. I mean, I’m very good at ignoring stuff – too good, in fact – but I can understand how you wouldn’t be. That’s a thing about modern life though. Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send. Netflix wants to send me notifications, but I said no – and this is done at the phone OS level so there’s nothing they can do about it.

I’ll unpick as best I can …
Yep but NetFlix is one thing (not mission critical) but banking is another.

Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send.

Yeah but the banking Apps are something I want to opt-out (as much as I can) because then I can’t ignore the notifications…

Cougar keeps asking why I’m obsessed with TOS/T&C etc. and one reason is I keep getting screwed over on them.
I’m the sort of person (maybe you are) that gets bike insurance and gets the Gold/Platinum lock then when it comes to claim the fine print say’s you need proof of purchase of the lock.. its not good enough to just have it and even have a photo of the bike using it… and the cut lock etc. because they are saying “you should have reads the T&C’s”

So .. I can (to take this example) eventually find a bike policy and satisfy myself .. to the policy and to some extent check at renewal something material hasn’t changed

Apps.. just keep changing the TOS and T&C’s… and have dependencies (such as OS and OS updates).
At some point some TOS or something will change and I’ll have another account hacked or something and I’ll not have complied with the TOS.

So here’s the thing on the pension letter… the “FINAL CHANCE – PLEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETALS BELOW” one.
It’s actually got a handwritten note on it saying “By phone 4 Dec – letter in post in 30 days” which strongly makes me thing I called the number on 4 Dec and was told I’d be receiving a letter by 3rd Jan (excluding XMAS post)

Obviously I didn’t… or did it mean I had to submit some letter by post within 30 days… (I don’t think so but not 100%) so regardless I kicked myself up the ass after your link (thank you) and called them again and got a email/set up and have access. So I screwed up… should have got back to them…

Now I know which pension this actually is it reveals ANOTHER screw up… me failing to check.
I got offered through company some pension advice setting this up… I should obviously have checked the costs involved and didn’t. (I think I’d assumed it was paid by the company)… turns out it cost me something like an entire YEAR of contributions to get what was it turned out a phone call to recommend a “personalise plan” and to add insult to injury the individual plan is set up for someone with the last 2 digits in my birthdate transposed so nearly 2 decades younger than me.

So I guess what I’m saying is I don’t trust myself to keep up to date …. I’ll screw up on the app… not do something required/mandated and get screwed again.

Equally.. when I say I want to turn my phone off for a month and not suffer consequences (i.e. App telling me I must do this or that) I mean I want that to be possible not that is what I want to do. More to the point I think I really mean I want to be able to ignore the banking app… and other similar stuff rather than switch the phone off completely.

So all those new things beyond TV license, utility bills, a phone bill (and tax) I just want as minimal/optional as possible. I don’t want them tied to an app… because if someone can screw them up it will be me.

FWIW I don’t get notifications from my banking app. I occasionally get an email telling me that a statement can be viewed online or that there has been some change to the T&Cs and a link to where I can read them. I don’t think that either of those are time critical in any way and I rarely follow the link provided.

I also understand that you don’t “trust yourself” to get it right and that it’s no use everyone telling you otherwise 🙂

Yes I get no notifications from my Barclays app and I don’t need them, there’s nothing I really need to know. They do email me about important stuff. Sometimes there are new app T&C’s to accept but I only see those when I log in which is rarely. I don’t read them, I trust the bank. Naively perhaps but whatever. As long as they give me my money and don’t rob me I’m ok.

Has that ever happened in the history of like the last 30 years?

I’ve had “FINAL CHANCE – PEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETAILS NOW” from pension.

That isn’t what I asked.

Cougar keeps asking why I’m obsessed with TOS/T&C etc. and one reason is I keep getting screwed over on them.

Hang on. I didn’t ‘keep’ asking anything, I asked once and you immediately denied it. Right there. ☝

I’m the sort of person (maybe you are) that gets bike insurance and gets the Gold/Platinum lock then when it comes to claim the fine print say’s you need proof of purchase of the lock..

But you would have proof of purchase if you paid with a card or an app rather than cash, the transaction will be on your bank account.

Apps.. just keep changing the TOS and T&C’s… and have dependencies (such as OS and OS updates).

But again… so what?

There’s a difference between diligently pouring over the legalese when taking out a will, and when installing a printer driver. No?

4) walking cycling distance branch in most UK towns

Around where I live, Chippenham in Wiltshire, most of the nearby towns have lost their banks, but Chippenham still has Lloyds, NatWest and I think Midland, as well as Halifax and possibly TSB. This is handy, because I can still phone my account manager on her mobile if there’s a problem, get an appointment and pop in and have a face to face conversation with her, which is brilliant. I’ve been with the bank, Lloyds, since the very early 70’s, and I consider my account manager to be a friend, she’s been helping me sort stuff out for years.

Are you sure? – you can do both those things over the counter with cash in a post office.

Even more interesting … I did look on our council website for “how to pay” and that wasn’t mentioned anywhere.

I used to pay my council tax over the PO counter, I still have the plastic card issued to my late stepfather that he used to use, and I just carried on with it.

In the end, it was just so much easier to set up a DD through the council’s website, then I know it’s always been paid – I have a separate account set up by my account manager specifically to handle all DD’s and standing orders, and a certain amount goes in when my wages go into my account.

So here’s the thing on the pension letter… the “FINAL CHANCE – PLEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETALS BELOW” one.
It’s actually got a handwritten note on it saying “By phone 4 Dec – letter in post in 30 days” which strongly makes me thing I called the number on 4 Dec and was told I’d be receiving a letter by 3rd Jan (excluding XMAS post)

Obviously I didn’t… or did it mean I had to submit some letter by post within 30 days… (I don’t think so but not 100%) so regardless I kicked myself up the ass after your link (thank you) and called them again and got a email/set up and have access. So I screwed up… should have got back to them…

Now I know which pension this actually is it reveals ANOTHER screw up… me failing to check.

You want to be communicated with via post. They write (/email) to you going “look, this is really important!” And despite your protestations about intrusive notifications you still managed to screw it up. Twice.

I would respectfully suggest to you that perhaps your system doesn’t work. You’re rejecting methodologies which would solve a good deal of the issues you’re complaining about. Are you related to my girlfriend? She eschews technology like online calendars in favour of writing things down, which is fine and all, but then she doesn’t write it down. She won’t use a password manager but will instead write down passwords, except she’ll write 47 passwords down on 47 different random scraps of paper, 46 of which she’ll immediately lose. Being a technophobe is perfectly feasible if your alternative is effective. Is yours? How difficult is it to carry a goddamn notepad?

Cougar

But again… so what?

There’s a difference between diligently pouring over the legalese when taking out a will, and when installing a printer driver. No?

Yes and no … it’s a continuum and granting access to my bank account/pensions is over at the taking out a will end.
I mean technically you could end up on some ink subscription for the printer but that’s at least not life changing sums and you could cancel then use the ink.

The last time I had money illegally withdrawn from my account I had a right pain getting it back but more importantly I had to prove I hadn’t done anything wrong or failed to do something and had abided by their T&C’s.

All the details I ever got despite repeated requests was it was someone had used an “emergency cash app” ..
In this instance I was able to prove fairly convincingly I was in the US/mid Atlantic and physically not at the ATM’s they claimed. What I wanted to know was how my account was compromised.. did that mean my pin was compromised, my account details etc. etc. and they just point blank refused to provide any details beyond a crime reference number.

As a result of not knowing WHAT was compromised or HOW I closed every account and reopened new accounts.
I hadn’t asked for this new service (emergency cash) – opted in or been given any choice about it.

Each new account I put explicit instructions that the ONLY remote access was via chip and pin and I didn’t want ANY access via a APP. This has been completely ignored, they added a contactless despite my explicit instructions to the contrary and they won’t allow me to remove contactless without the App!

They still made me say no-one had access to my pin and go through every transaction for ages one by one. [Whilst stood on a station in Paris – giving personal identifying information in one of the worst places in Paris to do that] looking for an excuse not to repay yet it turns out this was a known vulnerability they know all about and they could easily have taken the time I was in the US blanket to know non of the physical transactions were me and the use of my physical card in the US as proof the card was with me. (Yes I spent $5 at a food place in Vegas … Yes I paid for the shuttle bus when I landed… all the time in between what do they think I was doing? )

I put up with that in the hope they could reactivate my card so I could at least buy a ticket to the airport to get the flight and pay a taxi at the other end… [It was only luck I was in a city I could actually walk to a mates work and borrow some cash otherwise I’d have been completely stuffed – I could have been in Ushuaia]

So why am I worried about T&C/TOS .. lets say someone takes a life changing amount from my account and the bank uses the excuse I didn’t upgrade to the last version or acknowledge some message they sent through the App not to repay me?

But you would have proof of purchase if you paid with a card or an app rather than cash, the transaction will be on your bank account.

You have a record of a transaction… that’s not necessarily the same as proof of purchase.
The bigger the amount the more likely they are to be restrictive in what they consider proof of purchase.
£100 bike << cost of lock sure…. 3x£10k bikes ??

footflaps

If that really is the case, which I doubt, then your employer is just utterly crap in more ways than one….

It was all automated … and any “human” firewalls were someone didn’t know you from Adam pressing OK…

Reversing it was extremely manual … AND involved a lot of time for you and your line manager and their line manager who all had to do it essentially in their OWN time in order to not fall foul of the auto KPI’s themselves.

Real conversation with an ex line manager (a year or so after the fact and after he left the company) was “I had to get rid of everyone at a certain grade in my group” – I clicked the OK to transfer you and that’s all I know.. I thought someone would tell you about it.

So this change then changed my KPI’s .. reporting to someone in a third country… (original manager was in the US) so the first thing I knew was being pinged emails as to why I hadn’t done some required web form for some vertical department I didn’t even know I was part of.

Obviously I don’t know you from Adam, but the pop phycologist in me would suggest a diagnosis of techno-phobia

See above^^

So they could have a card reader ???

They could, but it’s exclusionary. If you’re going to accept payments (as a public body) you’ve got to accept cash, cheque card…the whole thing. Or not at all. They don’t want to handle the cheques and cash, so cards are excluded also.

It’s the same with the NT car park, the decision was probably financial, if you accept coins, someone’s got to empty the parking meter every night (dangerous for some auld biddy in the dark) count the coins, separately bag them, take them all down to the local bank branch…oh no wait…! Go to the branch in the next large town over sorry…All of that over the entire NT network probs costs large amounts of money. So install a parking App, Yes for first time users it’s going to be a PITA but like @Cougar says, once you’ve got the app it’s a piece of cake to use.Plus a side benefit is reduction in paper use.

Indeed and in the NT’s case the more money they save on that kind of admin the more they can spend on conservation. The same is true of other businesses – when they automate either we pay less or they can do other things better.

Intrigued how you are booking flights for these foreign jaunts, I can only assume it’s by walking to the The airline’s HQ with sacks of peppercorns. “my good man, I have come to reserve a transatlantic crossing…” etc.

I jest of course, but the example highlights a point. Judicious use of technology benefits us all. it’s about educating yourself, deciding what you need and being disciplined enough to stick to that, whilst of course keeping an eye on ‘new’ stuff that might benefit you. It doesn’t have to be exhausting. Saying ‘no tech’ on a purely dogmatic basis is illogical.

stingmered

I jest of course, but the example highlights a point. Judicious use of technology benefits us all. it’s about educating yourself, deciding what you need and being disciplined enough to stick to that, whilst of course keeping an eye on ‘new’ stuff that might benefit you. It doesn’t have to be exhausting. Saying ‘no tech’ on a purely dogmatic basis is illogical.

Yeah but that’s what I’m trying to do. It’s just my emphasis is a bit on **strictly need** vs gets pushed on me.

nickc

They could, but it’s exclusionary. If you’re going to accept payments (as a public body) you’ve got to accept cash, cheque card…the whole thing. Or not at all. They don’t want to handle the cheques and cash, so cards are excluded also.

I’m not disputing that’s the case, I’m just saying its bollox if the answer to being discriminatory/non exclusionary is to make it more discriminatory / exclusionary??

It’s the same with the NT car park, the decision was probably financial,

Indeed and in the NT’s case the more money they save on that kind of admin the more they can spend on conservation.

In the NT’s case they are excluding what I’d guess is a higher than average percentage of people not having modern enough phones or ones with the right OS.

footflaps

If that really is the case, which I doubt, then your employer is just utterly crap in more ways than one….

So a different perspective…
Lets take something I can discuss… as I never worked for the Post Office and don’t have an NDA with them and something you can verify yourself.

So a bunch of people put in a new system for post offices.
The postmasters didn’t ask for it…
Many knew it was faulty…
The system was pretty bad at maths so some money was lost
Many knew it was faulty…
People who knew full well it was the system then started criminal proceedings against the victims
Many victims lost their livelyhoods
Many victims suffered horrible stress
Some victims committed suicide
Some victims ended up in prison

All along whilst people were having breakdowns, committing suicide and in court being sentenced other people knew it was all due to a faulty system BUT did NOTHING

I think we can both agree the PO is/was “just utterly crap in more ways than one”… and the system was simply a system, the processes and everything around it had broken down.

If you want to get all POP phycologist and join me in speculation ..

The people who had screwed up (in IT) would seem not to have had a way of holding their hands up.. right at the beginning of the rollout.

those post masters weren’t so much real people as depersonalised unique ID’s.

the higher up the knowledge the system was at fault went the less likely it was going to be acknowledged

So yeah totally crap… trying to fix a problem they may or may not even have had with IT not people and process.

All along whilst people were having breakdowns, committing suicide and in court being sentenced other people knew it was all due to a faulty system BUT did NOTHING

This is just one more tragic ****-up and cover-up along with all the others, regardless of whether or not ‘tech’ was involved.

So yeah totally crap… trying to fix a problem they may or may not even have had with IT not people and process.

This problem was absolutely a 100% people problem not a tech one. As most ‘tech’ problems are.

 make it more discriminatory / exclusionary??

Not really, you just can’t pay it at the council office is all, you can pay your council tax with any form of payment at the post office counter.

In the NT’s case they are excluding what I’d guess is a higher than average percentage of people not having modern enough phones or ones with the right OS.

The average age of the NT membership is 55 – probably not as old as you guessed? I’m going to guess and suggest that most 55 year old can download an app, and make a payment for their parking on it.

are you sure it was actually a national trust operated car park. as every single one I’ve ever been to you just scan your membership card or its coins…

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/services/help-centre/car-parking-faqs

NickC

I’m going to guess and suggest that most 55 year old can download an app, and make a payment for their parking on it.

I’m not sure what you mean by “can” here? Maybe a ternary diagram…
At one point mentally capable of doing so at the other simply don’t want to and the other have the correct and modern enough and updated device.

I obviously couldn’t at the time because my phone wasn’t modern enough and I wasn’t even 55 then … likewise the lady who was already discussing with the ranger when I joined.

I suppose to be pedantic nothing was stopping me driving to a town and buying a new phone that was sufficiently modern and getting a SIM that would fit and setting it up with a means of payment… but in the context of them losing the business I don’t think that’s realistic. Once I drive away to go purchase this phone to all intents and purposes they lost that £5 or whatever.

To be more realistic … I’ll just park on the street then or avoid NT car parks etc.
Put simply being able to pay at this NT car park is in no way a compelling reason for the expense and inconvenience of getting rid of my otherwise “works for me” phone to replace with another.

The average age of the NT membership is 55 – probably not as old as you guessed?

Quite a bit younger TBH .. perhaps that is because they are actively driving away older members who used to get membership in person at a NT shop or cafe and are now being told to do it online?
Perhaps it’s deliberate and they found older people spend less in the cafe and shops and really don’t want them in the way or perhaps they didn’t think it through?

I did scan the link from Jambo (which turns out is for members) and then looked at Membership. I didn’t see any mention of how to join in person. Maybe its there but its certainly not easy to find.

The point of all the above is even organisations like the NT are making life difficult for people who don’t want a phone or internet.

I’m going to answer Molgrips with why I don’t like that.. so if you are genuinely interested not just arguing for the sake of it read that as well.

Molgrips

This is just one more tragic ****-up and cover-up along with all the others, regardless of whether or not ‘tech’ was involved.

This problem was absolutely a 100% people problem not a tech one. As most ‘tech’ problems are.

I’m totally onboard that this is just another… it’s just the first one sprang to mind.
Sure some people have always done bad shit and been shits but technology often just amplifies that and to an extent creates it.

Here we have a “people might be passing a parking ticket to someone else” argument. I don’t even know if it is a huge problem/loss of revenue or as the same person then said something like they doubt they check anyway.

Given we don’t know if this is a clear problem of lost revenue its a bit of guess work but chucking tech at this doesn’t seem like its going to solve it when people can just not go, park elsewhere etc.

Equally the membership average age, I’ll take as true… when I used to park in NT car parks I’d see a fairly mixed demographic I suppose (and I’m not checking who is a member and who isn’t) but some family memberships might drag it down ??

The thing really is why would membership average age be 55 and has that changed as they technologified ?
For me the NT has always been a bit of a mixed bag.. but on balance it’s something I put into the “happy enough to pay if the money is going to the NT”. That completely shifts if my perception is they are trying to drive away older people. They can justify this financially perhaps … Maybe they want to get rid of the ones who abuse the system by using free parking for members and then buying a cup of tea and taking up a table for hours as they nurse it?

Of course in that scenario that is probably not how “they” see it…. and what they probably have is a load of data that is presented as revenue not people…. the people working in the cafe probably don’t but see the old guy or gal who comes in because they are lonely at home and can barely afford the cuppa as abusing the system… they see a person.

The tech is what depersonalises that.

Sure it’s more efficient as a cash cow… but I don’t believe that makes it a better world.

Jumping back to people always did bad shit… again I see more people doing bad shit of a bigger scale.
People having their entire pension stolen, scams on people’s bank accounts etc. and some “arms war” over increased security to prevent this.

I just won’t want “in” if it crosses my red lines.
I’ll take the inconvenience of tapping in a pin code for example
If I can pay CT by DD that’s convenient right up to I can only set that up from an account that doesn’t force me to accept services I don’t want.

Each step makes it more pervasive and less optional and these “services” are being added without asking if people want them. I didn’t ASK for the emergency cash service… it was added without my consent then it was abused somehow and I was put into a position of having to prove it wasn’t me whilst they looked for a way to not pay me back.

People will continue to do bad shit… I just don’t want tech or services that makes it easy for them and then a load of faff and accepting TOS that unless I do X,Y,Z the bank aren’t responsible for paying back.

I don’t want that “you failed to acknowledge the notification so we are not refunding you” argument with them and them pointing to a TOS I accepted when I upgraded a mandatory upgrade.

I’m not sure what you mean by “can” here? Maybe a ternary diagram…
At one point mentally capable of doing so at the other simply don’t want to and the other have the correct and modern enough and updated device.

Turn that around. If “simply don’t want to” is a valid argument, I simply don’t want to use cash. I don’t carry it any more, I’m far more likely to be standing in an unfamiliar carpark with my phone than a pocketful of coins. In fact, the only reason I’d have change on me is if I’d previously had to break my emergency tenner that day.

Conversely I can open the app, it knows which car park I’m in via GPS, I tick the box that says “two hours please” and job jobbed. It’ll also alert me when the time is running out so I don’t accidentally overstay.

I appreciate this is probably your idea of hell but my point is simply this: choice is good. From an end user convenience point of view, a meter offering cash payments AND contactless AND an app is surely the best of all worlds.

Put simply being able to pay at this NT car park is in no way a compelling reason for the expense and inconvenience of getting rid of my otherwise “works for me” phone to replace with another.

In isolation perhaps not. And y’know, that’s fine, but as we’ve said before that’s your choice and you can’t have it both ways. If you want to run modern apps then you need a modern phone; if you don’t want a modern phone then you can’t use modern apps.

You’re arguing that you’re being “forced” to upgrade your ZX Spectrum to play FIFA 2022. You aren’t at all, you’re just stuck playing Match Day. Your choice.

perhaps that is because they are actively driving away older members who used to get membership in person at a NT shop or cafe and are now being told to do it online?

I highly doubt that they’re “actively” doing anything of the sort.

I haven’t been to an NT property since the pandemic so things may have changed now (perhaps even because of the pandemic) but outside of standalone carparks like the one at the Langdales I don’t think I’ve ever been to one that didn’t have someone in a little hut shilling for membership. Plus they always ask non-members about membership when you pay on the door for one-off entry to somewhere.

I’m speculating of course, but I’d have thought that the number of existing members who are now unable to renew their membership because of the (hypothetical or actual?) situation you describe is vanishingly low; most long-term members will likely be on direct debit and the NT sends out paper renewal reminders in the post.

If I can pay CT by DD that’s convenient right up to I can only set that up from an account that doesn’t force me to accept services I don’t want.

…

I don’t want that “you failed to acknowledge the notification so we are not refunding you” argument with them and them pointing to a TOS I accepted when I upgraded a mandatory upgrade.

You do realise, don’t you, just how irrational and paranoid all this sounds?

I take your point, I do. You’ve had a couple of bad experiences and that’s left you – perfectly understandably – jaded and cynical if not outright fearful about the whole thing. But please understand, these are outliers, your experience is atypical. The reason you had a shit time with your bank is nothing to do with ‘services’ but because you had a shit bank.

I just looked into your “emergency cash” thing. As a reminder, you said earlier:

I had a new service put on my account without asking… some “emergency cash” thing.
First thing I knew I was on Gare du Nord station mid business trips (literally between Vegas and South of France) unable to buy a ticket to the airport, money out or get a taxi etc. because my card was frozen.

I then had a load of phoning the number.. being transferred and being asked for personal information in what is probably not the best possible place in the world to be putting down bags and doing so… non of which unblocked the card and had I not been in a city that I had friends in walking distance who could lend me money I’d have been completely stuffed.

I got a crime reference number and eventually refunded but no further details ever as to what the scam had been.
After that I asked my account have all remote access taken away without a card reader.

I’ve since had several fake calls pretending to be from bank security faking the phone number… so on balance that’s why I want to keep away from remote banking.

The emergency cash service is only available after you card has been reported as lost or stolen. This then is, presumably, why your card was frozen – nothing to do with the emergency cash service you’re complaining about but because it’d been reported lost somehow. Maybe someone had gone through your bins and found an old statement or something? 🤷‍♂️

If your card is reported stolen, typically the only course of action offered by a bank is for them to reissue a new card to your home address. If instead you want to unblock the card in your hand, it’s not just understandable but essential that they have to make sure that you clear their security questions; for all they know the card was actually stolen, by you, and now you’re trying to blag them into enabling it. Would you rather they went “terribly sorry sir, we’ve unblocked your card now” without further challenge to a pickpocket who’s trying to buy an airline ticket? Hey, on reflection maybe your bank weren’t all that shit after all.

“had I not been in a city that I had friends in walking distance who could lend me money I’d have been completely stuffed.” – well, no, you could have used the app to generate a one-time code so that you could avail yourself of their emergency cash service. 😁

Your fake calls are almost certainly unrelated to any of this. Everyone gets them, the scammers are just chancers who are wardialling phone numbers.

I mentioned earlier that something similar happened to me. This is how it played out for me:

I was on my way home the following morning after a night out. I’d stopped at a Motorway services when my phone rang. My bank’s fraud department. They’d flagged up that I’d made a payment in the city centre, then another from like 20 miles away five minutes later.

She asked if I had my card. I said yes of course I… oh, no, wait, no I don’t! It took me a minute to piece together why. I was travelling light last night so hadn’t taken my wallet, I’d just stuck my card in my back pocket. At some point it must have fallen out, maybe I’d accidentally dragged it out with my phone or hotel keycard or something.

She went through recent transactions. Beers last night, yep. Sandwich from M&S, yep. KFC in the city this morning, no that wasn’t me, nor was something else. Coffee from Starbucks in the services just now, yep, that was me, I paid with my phone.

Not a problem sir, we’ve refunded those fraudulent transactions and cancelled your card, your replacement will be with you in a couple of days. Have a nice day.

This summer I dropped my debit card on the train, I was only off the train 5 minutes but because I had my phone with the Barclays App I could instantly freeze/cancel it and have another one at home in a few days. I also have it ping me every transaction which I find better than going through a statement and gives me immediate notice of any odd activity.

I’ve been with Barclays for 40 years now and having moved have also had 6 different branches in all that time not one problem, perhaps I’m lucky or Steve is unlucky?

As for NT car parks I parked in Longshaw Estate on Sunday and the machine took Cash, Cards App payment or free if you scanned your NT membership.

I think if you embrace the technology it can really make your life easier. An example was last week when my son came home having lost his debit card…well, he thinks he lost it, it may be in his jeans pocket that he left at his mates house or in his mums car as she picked him up. Neither of them were answering their phones so we used the app to temporarily freeze the card until we could find it. 2 days later it was found so we used the app to unfreeze the card.

Nice and easy, not to mention being able to check the app to see if there were any transactions that he wasn’t expecting.

The idea of having to go into the council office or bank to do something that I could do from my phone with a beer in my hand at a time that suits me is just madness.

Cougar

I just looked into your “emergency cash” thing.

Nope you just looked into the current TOS not the TOS when it happened.
Two points on this
a) This is why I don’t like those changing T&C/TOS being applied by default.
b) Basically – no I didn’t cancel.. I was told to go to the nearest Branch (Jersey) so the rest is just what you are basing it on the TOS/T&C today…

I can’t show you the TOS at the time because they are gone and as I never used the “emergency cash” service (I didn’t ask for) I can’t say how it worked as a consumer at the time either.

She went through recent transactions. Beers last night, yep. Sandwich from M&S, yep. KFC in the city this morning, no that wasn’t me, nor was something else.

But that only happened because you have contactless… if not the card would have been useless to the average joe or jill and you’d have got home and had lots of time to discover and cancel before it found its way (if it ever did) into organised crime.

Your bank were refunding a few pounds to one person, wheras at the time (and pre them changing the TOS however many times) this was a BIG SCAM that I understand affected tens of thousands .. from memory I got taken for best part of £1000 so they were potentially mitigating against 10,000 or more people at £1,000 each

Your fake calls are almost certainly unrelated to any of this. Everyone gets them, the scammers are just chancers who are are dialling phone numbers.

For you these are unrelated because your account is already “open”.
Same as you losing the card ^^ no-one not a “professional” in card security working in organised crime would have been able to use it if it wasn’t already opened up for contactless no pin transactions.
I’m happy to type 4 numbers (or 6 even) ..

My point here is

I appreciate this is probably your idea of hell but my point is simply this: choice is good. From an end user convenience point of view, a meter offering cash payments AND contactless AND an app is surely the best of all worlds.

Yep so I’m happy with a debit card with pin and authorising transactions with it.
What I’m not happy with is contactless or other services I don’t ask for being put onto my account and then told I have to subscribe to ANOTHER service (App) I don’t want to remove (if it even can be removed).

Has the bank asked “Do you want to opt into this emergency cash” thing I’d almost certainly have declined
If they asked “Do you want to opt into this new way to use your account that we can vary the TOS by sending you a notification in the App” then I very very much don’t want it.

This rarely works out another thread just reminded me of a “SCAM” by Bracknell forest… I’m sticking scam in quotes.
So for a time an error on contactless led to people being charged twice for Swinley parking.
That’s sort of fair enough if a bit shit… mistakes happen and all. The (quotes) SCAM is Bracknell (Unitary Authority) knew about it but only refunded those who noticed and then asked. It didn’t just recredit those who hadn’t noticed. (With the risk 1-2 people might have paid for 2 cars and losing their £3.50)

So in this case YOU (being fully bought in) would at some point have got 2 notifications on some App or other on your phone you were carrying… (presumably 1/2 way round when you got signal 😉 ) got back and gone on their website to find some way to file a complaint and be paid back etc.

I wouldn’t because I’d have paid by cash or chip and pin.

So I don’t mind at all if you want to wave a phone or pin-less so long as the option to pay in a way i feel comfortable with the consequences of using are maintained.