it is worth experimenting to find your personal “sweet spot”.

See, I got the piss ripped out of me mercilessly for suggesting that I might be one of those people who might need more carbs than others for the type of riding and training I do….

I can go fairly low carb but my top end power when riding goes through the floor, and if I go too low I lose the ability to do anything other than pootle really slowly. It was like having some kind of debilitating illness.

Re vegetables – there are many wild vegetables that cavemen would’ve eaten, and that some people around the world still eat. Modern farmed veg are derived from them and are considered similar enough for it not to matter. Except I think sweetcorn, which has been bred to have tons of fructose in it.

Re vegetables – there are many wild vegetables that cavemen would’ve eaten, and that some people around the world still eat. Modern farmed veg are derived from them and are considered similar enough for it not to matter. Except I think sweetcorn, which has been bred to have tons of fructose in it.

Seems bit like my theory of “eat like your grandparents did”. Pile of veg, some spuds, bit of meat. (Then a pipe and a bottle of guiness. 😉 )

Well no, cos they ate loads of bread and potatoes. Those things are not ideal apart from on grounds of cost.

I can go fairly low carb but my top end power when riding goes through the floor, and if I go too low I lose the ability to do anything other than pootle really slowly. It was like having some kind of debilitating illness.

It’s entirely possible that your body just needs the carbs and that’s all there is to it.

However there are a couple of points that might be worth considering. How much time have you given your body to adapt to a lower-carb regime? I’ve heard several times that peoples’ bodies have taken a few weeks for their metabolism to adapt, during which time you might have to ease off the intensity and/or accept a performance loss. I have also often heard of the “zone of misery” where people are eating too few carbs for decent performance but too many to enter ketosis. Have you tried a very low carb (ketogenic) diet?

If you’ve not come across it before then this chap’s blog is well worth reading http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance
From memory the conclusion seemed to be (for him) that a low carb diet did indeed decrease his top-end power slightly (although nowhere near as much as you describe) but the trade off was that his lactate threshold was massive increased along with his endurance at less-than-peak output. Interesting stuff!

Seems bit like my theory of “eat like your grandparents did”.

Yes, you could certainly do a lot worse than that. Walking/cycling everywhere instead of driving is also a great idea. Also I imagine that whilst the “olden days” had their own stresses, not being caught up in the rat-race that seems to be the norm today could only have been a good thing.

As molgrips says though, you would IMO be better off replacing white potatoes with sweet ones or other root veg and ditching the bread entirely.

mollys a natural sprinter not endurance. less than peak output is not desired i’m guessing.

“A 2011 ranking by U.S. News & World Report, involving a panel of 22 experts, ranked the Paleo diet lowest of the 20 diets evaluated based on factors including health, weight-loss and ease of following.[26] These results were repeated in the 2012 survey, in which the diet tied with the Dukan diet for the lowest ranking out of 25 diets; U.S. News & World Report stated that their experts “took issue with the diet on every measure”.[26] However, one expert involved in the ranking stated that a “true Paleo diet might be a great option: very lean, pure meats, lots of wild plants. The modern approximations… are far from it.”[26] He added that “duplicating such a regimen in modern times would be difficult.”[26]”

mollys a natural sprinter not endurance. less than peak output is not desired i’m guessing.

In which case he is probably better off (as he has found) sticking with the (good) carbs. I think it’s worth emphasising that the primal/paleo lifestyle is concerned with overall health including mental health not specifically with athletic performance so depending on your goals then some compromises will have to be made.

@onehundredthidiot seen that report before, it is a load of nonsense as far as I’m concerned. Remember that primal/paleo is a lifestyle not a crash diet. It can’t be evaluated in a few weeks/months or at all in fact if the diet is the only part adopted. As I have stated previously the diet is only one part of the whole and I have found immense benefit from the lifestyle change.

How much time have you given your body to adapt to a lower-carb regime?

Well (at the risk of repeating myself) when I was in Germany I had an 18 mile flat commute, done 3-4 times a week. I stuck to the diet rigidly for 3-4 weeks (with energy drink on the commute) and lost weight, but my performance dropped off to the point where I could not physically ride at more than a granny pootle. So I introduced more simple carbs around the riding and it levelled off, I lost 10kg or so but if I tried to do a 10 mile TT pace I’d be fine for about 10 mins then just die completely in a few minutes.

I did it for three months or so, and at the end I thought sod it, ate 3-4 twixes a day and a couple of cokes (but kept the slow carb breakfasts and meals); I lost another 2kg and got loads of pace back.

Fell off the wagon for a good while, then managed some good results in a three week period by doing 10 mile flat out commutes having fasted, then eating loads of simple carbs afterwards. Lost 3 really tricky kg but also got much faster in the process.

Amongst lots of other things, insulin is anabolic. I find that if I do things that would produce lots of insulin it really promotes recovery, which itself uses up a lot of calories. If I do a really hard ride and don’t drop loads of carbs immediately afterwards, it takes me ages to recover. I tend to stay tired until the next time I eat simple carbs then I suddenly get better.

My next challenge is to get used to taking on the carbs I need WITHOUT the sugar. In addition to the insulin/fat business, the sugar messes with my brain making me into a junkie.

The whole point of a low-carb diet as far as I understand it is to promote fat-burning as your primary energy source. Surely by consuming energy drink throughout your commute you totally sabotage that? I would definitely recommend giving the eatingacademy site a read.

Zilog, not a report its a set of studies. Just thought I’d throw it in the pot. Any proscribed diet has the potential to head to fabbiness and therefore potential danger. Although our metabolisms are not quite up to the modern quick carb/kj/protien fix they are getting, they may well have moved on slightly from the paleolithic (see tolerance of alcohol as an example).

Sure, I understand that. Personally I don’t take the “paleo” aspect literally as I don’t think it makes a lot of sense. I interpret it much as the poster earlier (to paraphrase) “do as your grandparents did” i.e. be more active & avoid processed, unnatural foodstuffs.

The whole point of a low-carb diet as far as I understand it is to promote fat-burning as your primary energy source. Surely by consuming energy drink throughout your commute you totally sabotage that?

Well yes, at the time I wasn’t aware of the ’45 minute rule’ ie not taking on carbs before and during the first 45 mins of exercise, to encourage your body to start using up fat. I’ve found this very effective. However I didn’t totally sabotage the weight loss, but I could maybe have been a lot more effective. The riding I did later (the 10 mile commute) was more effective as combined weight loss and fitness gains.

Moving around jobs and locations a lot is interesting, but it’s a real pain in training terms. Just as you get a good routine going it all goes up in the air again.

I have also often heard of the “zone of misery” where people are eating too few carbs for decent performance but too many to enter ketosis. Have you tried a very low carb (ketogenic) diet?

Just saw this.

No, I haven’t tried ketosis. Interesting.. but would I permanently change my body composition? I rather like being a sprinter, my favourite kind of riding is fast technical stuff where you have to pile on the power for short sharp climbs and lots of acceleration. I wouldn’t want to lose that ability. However I think that this goes hand in hand with a tendency to gain fat, but I’m not sure if it’s directly related or because riding like that depletes my blood sugar which makes me crave sugar, which allows me to ride like that and so on in a vicious circle. It’s also entirely possible that my sweet tooth over the years has led me to ride like that rather than the other way round!

However I didn’t totally sabotage the weight loss, but I could maybe have been a lot more effective.

I’m talking about sabotaging your ability to use fat for fuel instead of carbs. The weight-loss aspect is side-effect irrelevant to performance as far as I’m concerned. You should (theoretically) be able to run almost entirely off of fat up to the lactose-threshold point of intensity. Thus the carb intake (if any) should depend upon the duration of high-intensity work above this point, and also your recovery goals regarding replenishing muscle glycogen before your next ride.

re: ketosis. I tried it for a month and bar a hiccup in the first week (which I put down to lack of hydration) I was surprised that I didn’t notice any difference in performance at all. Granted I’m not doing 10 mile TTs but I do commute every day by bike, lift weights 3x per week as well as run inc. sprint intervals. I did lose a few lbs of fat though.

I don’t see why you would change your body composition whilst in ketosis. Most people do it for a few weeks/months to help switch over generally to a more fat-biased metabolism, although there are those who (claim they) are ketosis permanently. The chemical process of energy generation in the body is something I find pretty complicated and have only recently stated exploring properly but as I understand it ATP and lactate generation is not affected by ketosis so short-term explosive energy i.e. sprinting should not suffer.

Sprinting ability is largely genetic as I understand it and you might even find it improves if you can use a ketogenic or low-carb diet to increase lean muscle mass whilst decreasing body fat. You seem pretty open to experimentation (ooh-er!) so it might be one more thing to have a go at?

I will consider the ketogenic option. Although I think the riding whilst fasted has a similar effect – I certainly need to take on far far fewer carbs during riding than I ever did before and still ride well.

I’m talking about sabotaging your ability to use fat for fuel instead of carbs.

Yes, and you are probably right. I don’t know if I am more interested in fat loss or fat burning to be honest. Of course the latter is important, but really if I could ride like I do now but be 15kg lighter I’d be extremely happy with my performance.

You should (theoretically) be able to run almost entirely off of fat up to the lactose-threshold point of intensity

Hmm as I understood it, you still need some carbs even to burn fat, but I don’t know how much or if that varies person to person. I have had blood lactate tests, and after doing some base training I did run off fat up to my lactate threshold. But in Germany most of my riding was between that and my anaerobic threshold.

ATP and lactate generation is not affected by ketosis so short-term explosive energy i.e. sprinting should not suffer

Well – there’s sprinting and there’s sprinting in cycling terms, isn’t there? In cycling a 90 minute XC race is considered short, whereas running on the track a 12 minute race is one of the longest distance races.

Some XC races are a series of many short sprints (Gorricks for example) so sprinting comes in handy but it’s not really a sprint event as such.

Well (at the risk of repeating myself) when I was in Germany I had an 18 mile flat commute, done 3-4 times a week. I stuck to the diet rigidly for 3-4 weeks (with energy drink on the commute)

I’ll knock in >40 miles a day on water.
Grips, its a mind issue for you. You aint special you just Think you are.

Sprinting ability is largely genetic as I understand it

Please, don’t encourage him.

Yes, and you are probably right. I don’t know if I am more interested in fat loss or fat burning to be honest. Of course the latter is important, but really if I could ride like I do now but be 15kg lighter I’d be extremely happy with my performance.

That makes NO sense !. If you rode as you do now, after losing 16Kg (one Kg added for extra cheese), you’d have effectively gotten slower. Madness.

Hmm as I understood it, you still need some carbs even to burn fat, but I don’t know how much or if that varies person to person

Yes, but so little as not to be a distraction, you’re body will get you through. Its your obsession with carbs thats hindering your weight loss / fat loss. Which I’d have thought you’d be interested in as a lighter Molgrips would be a faster one and it is all about your awesome speedyness, isn’t it ?.

Well – there’s sprinting and there’s sprinting

No, its the same. Sprinting, is…. sprinting. Anything else, is not sprinting.

🙁

That makes NO sense !. If you rode as you do now, after losing 16Kg (one Kg added for extra cheese), you’d have effectively gotten slower. Madness.

I meant if I produced the same power as now.

Its your obsession with carbs thats hindering your weight loss / fat loss.

FFS not this again. Look, I started out doing it by the book, and it didn’t work out that well. You seem to think this is all in my head, well, whatever. You weren’t there so you may think what you like. I’m not (usually) obsessed with carbs, but I am quite concerned with performance, and I have proved many times over that not enough carbs harms my riding. That is, the kind of riding I like to do. Which, by the sound of it, is not the same as what you like to do.

And sprinting is not just sprinting. 100m runners do three or four 10 second efforts in a day with lots of waiting. Physiologically, it’s not at all the same as powering up the umpteenth short climb after an hour of riding on the limit.

but I am quite concerned with performance

You are not top level athlete, you is over weight, middle age IT guru that calls other people, silly.

I have proved imagined many times over that not enough carbs harms my illusion about my riding
FTFY

That is, the kind of riding I like to do. Which, by the sound of it, is not the same as what you like to do

What style of riding do I like to do ?.

And sprinting is not just sprinting. 100m runners do three or four 10 second efforts in a day with lots of waiting. Physiologically, it’s not at all the same as powering up the umpteenth short climb after an hour of riding on the limit.

Still wrong. Don’t focus outside the body, look inside the body.
When you sprint, you sprint, end of.

Whoah this is getting a bit personal.

Sounds like you know all about me, so there’s no point in replying.

When you sprint, you sprint, end of.

ATP or glycogen? Are ATP levels the same after 90 mins of hard riding as after 2 hours of standing about?

Whoah this is getting a bit personal.

Agreed, you run about calling people silly.

After giving myself a groin hernia, I took elements of the anti-inflammatory diet on board and simple removal of refined flour, starch and sugar.

Dropped a significant amount of weight without really trying… although lost a bunch of muscle mass as i have been unable to exercise effectively since christmas.
If I can keep a sensible diet going once I’m back to a proper exercise schedule, I’m pretty confident it will be a good thing. Helps too that the kids are eating healthy without us being the food police.

Paleo says ‘cross-fit’ to me.. which is a cult I try and avoid 😉
Have friends who have bought into the paleo/x-fit mindset though and they’ve never been healthier! So, it works for some.

Paleo and vegetarian doesn’t seem like there’s much left to eat though..

ATP or glycogen? Are ATP levels the same after 90 mins of hard riding as after 2 hours of standing about?

What, in relation to how much carbohydrate you’ve ingested ?
🙄

Paleo and vegetarian doesn’t seem like there’s much left to eat though..

I think its the concept regarding paleo that serve best, then applied in a modern context. Its not a religion here.

Chocolate is probably a Neolithic food. But it Stays !.
🙂

Not paleo but I’ve been on a keto diet for the past month and feel much better for it! Much less sluggish (energy levels seem much more even throughout the day) and hunger pangs seem a lot more manageable! Haven’t lost much weight on the scales but have gone down an inch on my waist and moobs noticeably smaller, so result! Think it would be really hard without meat though..

What, in relation to how much carbohydrate you’ve ingested ?

No, in general.

hunger pangs seem a lot more manageable!

This is something I totally forgot about! Previously (on a high refined sugar diet) I would get hungry after not eating for a few hours and the hunger would become all consuming and almost painful after a while (like when people say “I’m starving”). This literally never happens now. I usually go 16hr after eating dinner until lunch the next day. I could quite happily skip eating for a whole day and not feel uncomfortable.

feel much better for it

Good stuff 🙂

Think it would be really hard without meat though..

Yeap, theres a reason for that.
So meat is in too, as far as I’m concerned.
😉

If we could move past the solo and molgrips show….

Well no, cos they ate loads of bread and potatoes.

Erm, well actually mostly they didn’t, your mum and dad and their mum and dad eat significantly smaller portions than people do now, hence why nearly 25% of the population is overweight.

Anyway. This
Well (at the risk of repeating myself) when I was in Germany I had an 18 mile flat commute, done 3-4 times a week. I stuck to the diet rigidly for 3-4 weeks (with energy drink on the commute)

And this

FFS not this again. Look, I started out doing it by the book,

Apper to contradict each other molgrips….?

No, in general.

But you’re so special. in general can’t apply to you.
Thats what you tell us.
😉

But whos going to sprint after 90 mins of riding and have anyone give a toss ?. Only Pros, and you aint one.

If we could move past the solo and molgrips show….

Agreed. The I’m different and nothing works for me as it might for others.
Is getting really old now.

Previously (on a high refined sugar diet) I would get hungry after not eating for a few hours and the hunger would become all consuming and almost painful after a while (like when people say “I’m starving”). This literally never happens now.

That’s my experience too. I’m still hungry most of the time but it’s a low grade thing that’s easy to forget. However if I eat something sweet, however small, then the urge gets really strong. But what’s worse is that if someone makes a suggestion about some form of desert, I suddenly get really insanely hungry and it’s a big struggle to beat it down again!

Well no, cos they ate loads of bread and potatoes.

Erm, well actually mostly they didn’t,

I meant relatively. A portion of starch was the main stay of a meal, because it’s cheap. ‘Fill up on bread’ they were told, as I was too. I don’t think my parents ate significantly smaller portions than NORMAL meals now. Also, as kids, they ate a lot of sweets. They were however running around outside dawn til dusk.

My grandparents probably didn’t eat lots of sweets. However my Nan was overweight, smoked and had a heart attack in her 60s so I doubt she’s a good role model. Not sure people were as super healthy back then as you seem to be suggesting.

The I’m different and nothing works for me as it might for others.

You paint it that way. I’m saying that people vary a lot, I have no idea why you have such a hard time with that idea since it’s so blatantly obvious. Maybe it lets you get on your high horse and patronise the **** out of me?

But what’s worse is that if someone makes a suggestion about some form of desert, I suddenly get really insanely hungry and it’s a big struggle to beat it down again!

Wasn’t I saying its a mind issue for you ?.
🙄

a diet thread with solos useful contribution…ah all is well in the world

If we could move past the solo and molgrips show….

Agreed.
you cannot change what they say then agree 😯
you do this to every diet thread …you must realise this

What’s soya milk if not processed crap?

see how it is made, it is produced by soaking dry soybeans and grinding them with water.
not exactly processed crap. whether it is good for you is another issue

It’s not ALL a mind issue. Because my riding suffers. Up there I was just talking about hunger pangs. I’m trying to say that if I conquer the urges and don’t eat the carbs, I get slower on the bike.

And if you’re telling me I’m just feigning weakness becuase I imagine I need more carbs, well.. you’re being silly I’m afraid.

You paint it that way.

No, you add cheese to stuff, go figure !.

Maybe it lets you get on your high horse and patronise the **** out of me

Is that like, errrrm… calling people, silly ?.

Right, I’m off home for some fasted exercise (if I were Mol-Awesome I’d call it training) followed by a dinner of meat and veg.

On the subject of bike performance etc, the first couple of weeks were really hard but I’ve settled into it now. Normally just do a quick 10miler and to start with I was totally drained/bonking about 5 miles in. Now I can gothe whole ride without feeling too bad at all, gonna start upping the mileage back to my “usual” soon as well 🙂

Someone said right at the start, any ‘diet’ that is not sustainable is pointless. That’s why traditional dieting is so hard, you are in effect starving yourself. That’ll never last. Stupid.

In fact if you have a diet which completely excludes something you love, why are you doing it? Life isn’t about getting somewhere, it’s about journeying through it enjoying things as you go. You can reach a happy compromise where you follow a sustainable regime most of the time and then just do that thing you enjoy without damaging the process. It’s OK to chug pizza once a week, don’t worry about it. Really enjoy eating bags of sweets, it won’t tear you off the rails if you have a bag every now and again.

Life isn’t about getting somewhere

Well that’s debatable 🙂

What carbs for sprinting 😀