In idle enquiry – was on a First Aider for Sports course at the weekend as I help out to coach a football team for 8 year olds and the requirements to have a ratio of trained First Aiders with specified kit for each team was stressed at every opportunity.
We field 4 teams of 5 at the weekend and need one first aider per team or we aren’t allowed to play.

This got me thinking……

There is a local MTB club where I live and i’ve been on a few rides with them in the last year. They are led rides with a leader who has ( or is in the process of) MBLA training, a register of participants is taken at the start of the ride, there are sometimes kids under sixteen and the Club owns and loans bikes / helmets to some of the participants on the rides.

Should the Club have a designated First Aider / Kit on these rides.

What liability would the Club have in the event of an accident / injury?

What does the risk assessment say 🙂

Dunno?

I’m in no way involved in the running or organisation of the club and i’ve never asked.

Was just curious.

What does the club say 🙂

First aid training is part of BC’s Mountain Bike leader qualification, so if you have a qualified leader, you have a qualified first aider too.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/coaching/article/leaderst-Level-2-Mountain-Bike-Leadership-Award-0

No.

They have you….

Possibly maybe

They have you….

I don’t think i’ll be carriying the approved SYFA first aid kit on a ride though. It’s too big to carry on to a plane.

What liability would the Club have in the event of an accident / injury?

If affiliated to BC, it’d be protected by their insurance maybe? But then you probably need to be ticking all the boxes. Slippery slope.

What does the fox say?

Slippery slope.

This is precisely the problem.

Slippery slope.

This.

Any bike clubs I’ve ridden with have avoided the likes of ‘ride leaders’ to negate responsibility.

Tbh I’d advocate anyone who does any kind of ‘higher risk’ outdoor activity to get an awareness and subsequent training on situations that can arise.

Our local club refuse point blank to have insurance , the chances of wanting a first-aider are less than zero .
What happens if the first-aider doesn’t show up for the weekly ride – would the others have to cancel the ride ?

A lot of club (those who are a bit more than just a few mates who meet at the pub) now have disclaimers on their website or fb group to get round this issue, making it clear it is done at individual risk and there are no safety provisions put in place and you must make your own decisions about anything you ride. Plus, if payment isn’t taken (e.g. club subs etc) think that also helps avoiding (a bit) such paperwork.

Never mind a first aider. We won’t set off on a Monday Night Pub Ride without the following support team..

a) Qualified Physio. We have never completed a ride without them being called into action at least 3 times
b) Air Ambulance following overhead. We have never completed a ride without them being called into action at least 3 times
c) A master brewer capable of supplying a variety of delicious but reasonably priced ales. We have never completed a ride without them being called into action at least 3 times.
d) A small Greggs outlet. We have never completed a ride without them being called into action at least 3 times.
d) A bike mechanic with the tools necessary to strip and rebuild a set of forks in the dark in 3ft of mud, in horizontal rain. We have never completed a ride without them being called into action at least 3 times

Oh… and a team of cheerleaders to provide motivation on the climbs…

as others have said, bit of a minefield…

‘Ride Leader’ is a term we avoid in GMBC for these reasons, as it invokes a level of training and certification/paperwork. There is no problem with someone riding at the front and showing others the route though. In the latter scenario, first aider is a ‘nice to have’ but not essential. Formal ‘ride leader’ will be certified and First Aid trained as others have said.

Also, with riders under 16 on club rides with BC affiliated clubs, those ‘responsible’ on the ride need to have PVG clearance (child protection stuff)

This is why the bureaucracy of clubs for social activities sometimes bothers me…

I ride with a like-minded bunch on a Tuesday evening (MTB) and we have fun, ride hard (fnar), take risks etc. We’ve had falls and crashes, and had deer strikes.
All is good, people get inured, the chap hit by teh deer has knackered his hip.
We help out the injured, fix the broken bikes etc. But this is non formal, no implied responsibility. No-one to sue, no one to blame.
If you can’t ride a drop or chute, don’t. We’ll wait at the bottom for you to mince round. But we’ll wait.
I’ll ‘lead’ rides, organise away days, and keep up the bants…

The roadie club I ride with are a nice bunch, but I specifically refuse to get involved in organisation or ride leading because, well, it’s just too much.
People ask for ride leaders phone numbers to let them know they are home safe if they leave the ride early. Ride leader has to carry tubes, gels, and all manner of kit in case someone else doesn’t.
We can’t organise rides on facebook unless we specifically highlight them as ‘unofficial’ so as to NOT affiliate the club with that ride….

What’s it all coming too…..!!

DrP

Some of our club local ride leaders, myself included – Have a MIAS 2/3 qualification, public liability, first-aid for hostile conditions and a license for guiding in the FC area. First-Aid only every 3 years at £180. PL is £90.

But, we can also do commercial coaching with that too.

My ex-club were trying to go in this direction. I suppose it depends on how official your ‘club’is. And how you balance the club structure with yearly fees etc. Most bikers are tight-arses and don’t understand what £15 gets you for the year, but the money could go towards, qualified guides, FA, PL etc.

One thing I learnt about leading club rides are: you spend more time faffing than riding.

I ride with a like-minded bunch on a Tuesday evening (MTB)

….and have an awareness of the relative abilities of each which informs a choice of route, i’d imagine.

All that’s required on the Club rides i’m talking about is to join a closed Facebook Group and show up. No prior experience necessary. Adults and teenagers alike.

It’s very inclusive to newcomers and complete novices which makes me simultaneously happy and uneasy.

It must be difficult to make a snap judgement on the relative abilities of a dozen people and pick suitable trails accordingly.

Easy to get it wrong though.

The other option has been used on occasion. Rather than take responsibility for an injured rider, with all the faffing that that entails, we sometimes just beat them to death and bury their bodies in shallow graves on the moors

I hope you remove their spectacles, and post them off to Africa?

DrP

PP – I take it then that it’s not a BC affiliated club ?

We take everything of value, including their bike DrP. I’ve got a house full

PP – I take it then that it’s not a BC affiliated club ?

Dunno. I assume not.

I worry that it’s a bunch of decent, friendly, welcoming blokes who are doing their best to promote mountain biking to everyone but haven’t considered all the angles which might bite them in the ass.

I just don’t know though and will have the conversation the next time I see the guys.

I hope you remove their spectacles, and post them off to Africa?

DrP

Lolz

Our Thursday group is a bit like DrPs but I’ve given up any form of active encouragement after one or two faceplants. And digging shallow graves is even more inconvenient than fixing a bent mech hanger so best avoided. We do have a Strava Bully (TM) though so maybe I should be taking a paramedic degree….

EDIT – I do always carry a basic FAK (aka massive dressing and tape but not that white powder the SAS chuck around when people bleed) and a survival blanket so I do actually G-A-S (and I used to be in the scouts).

interesting.

holding my hand up as a first aider i make myself responsible for any casualties that occur while on a club ride. I dont really want to do this (although i do help, im not heartless as some may suggest 🙂 )

Its a tough one. The best clubs (our included) are politic free with no membership or expectation. One you pay a membership fee then its all change and th club should as a minimum hold insurance i would suggest.

Here is another twist – don’t think having a nurse ( like me) or a doctor on the ride counts as a first aider – we do not! To be a qualified first aider I would have to do the course. Daft ain’t it?

my moral rule on this is:

if you pay to be in the club/go on rides then it should have all the necessary bits in place. otherwise no.

Not really. I’ve had various disagreements discussions with my Mrs (a qualified nurse) about stuff I’ve been taught on First Aid courses. Nurses are trained to function in a different environment with much more support available.

tjagain » Here is another twist – don’t think having a nurse ( like me) or a doctor on the ride counts

We were told the same thing on our course at the weekend for youth football.

Nurse – need to do the course
Paramedic – need to do the course
Orthopedic Consultant – need to do the course.

Only people who don’t require to do it are qualified physiotherapists apparently.

d) A small Greggs outlet. We have never completed a ride without them being called into action at least 3 times.

Ooh, now that makes me think we could follow the lead of Yorkshire Tea and convert an ice-cream van into a mobile Greggs bakery for event support.

sounds like a plan that….

certainally if we had any kind of pre planning we could get an icecream / burger van to meet us half way round our 10 mile loop

🙂

if you pay to be in the club/go on rides then it should have all the necessary bits in place. otherwise no.

I think that’s a pretty good rule of thumb. Paid clubs likely spend some of their income on BC affiliation etc, which imposes various rules for the wellbeing of the group members.

Some interesting points raised here. At MB Swindon we feel we have some duty of care to our member’s who’ve parted with cash to be members. We have a group of ride leaders who all sign up to a club ‘code of conduct’ before leading rides.in return we cover them on the club’s insurance and pay for them to take first aid training. We’re quite a big club with an annual turnover of membership fees high enough for us to do this and I think ,in the main, our members appreciate a certain level of security when out on organised rides with us. If I’m completely honest it does get a bit much at times but we feel we’ve got things at something like a sensible balance.

I’m part of several other less official groups with a more casual approach and I enjoy riding with them too. I think the key is that if you’re charging folk to be members of your club then yes, you need to be providing them with some sort of cover.

canopy – Member 
my moral rule on this is:
if you pay to be in the club/go on rides then it should have all the necessary bits in place. otherwise no.

Same, and generally why I stick with informal groups of people who just happen to turn up in the same location and ride the same route as each other 😀

Though handy thing to get some first aid experience, particularly focused on MTB. I keep thinking of doing a course MTB related. Have been involved in a number of incidents with smashed up riders (not counting myself).

p.s. maybe not the best option but something I learned if you’re stuck without a sling… spare tube can be used to improvise.

Also, most of the injuries involving broken bones will be collarbone, from experience.

Paramedic – need to do the course

I feel happier riding with one of the (HART) paramedics I know, even if they haven’t done a course to qualify as a first aider.

Flip it around, one of the under 16’s comes off and has a nasty accident, what will you do? What will the others do?
From a personal level having some knowledge is a good thing, when it’s you and your mates it’s also useful.

There is a local MTB club where I live and i’ve been on a few rides with them in the last year. They are led rides with a leader who has ( or is in the process of) MBLA training, a register of participants is taken at the start of the ride, there are sometimes kids under sixteen and the Club owns and loans bikes / helmets to some of the participants on the rides.

Should the Club have a designated First Aider / Kit on these rides.

What liability would the Club have in the event of an accident / injury?
In this situation then first thing call British Cycling – they know a bit about this I think.
Your description is way beyond a bunch of mates it’s a person leading what sounds like a formal group. Do the lids fit properly, how are they stored, whats the check over on the bikes?
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/clubinsurance
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/clubs/article/20130618-club-static-Risk-assessment-for-club-activities-0

Years ago did worked with HSE drafting guidelines for the BMC for management of climbing walls – things weren’t quite so litigous then but the HSE had a concept of hierarchy
Kids as per OP absolute duty of care and those soccer guidelines arent a lot different to those used in for example scouting

Adults who claim experience in a sport no big deal but a commercial operator should assess their claims – a club is a club of consenting adults exception being beginners: concept of entreatment – inviting inexperienced people to take part whether or not for payment in this situation expect leaders to hold some qualification including first aid

As a soccer dad i would expect a first aider at training or a match
As a cyclist on a rock up gravelgrind – no
At a sportive with food sag wagon timing and a lot of cash – yes