Home Forums Chat Forum Liz! Truss!

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  • Liz! Truss!
  • ernielynch
    Free Member

    I think Ernie has rather summed up the modern Tory (ex red wall) voters.

    That’s me….. always backing the Tories.

    I am working-class, I intensely dislike “wokism”, and I very strongly supported leaving the EU.

    For the intellectually lazy that can only mean one thing – I am a racist Tory.

    What less could it possibly mean?

    Edit: Sometimes I really wished that micklynch rode a bike.

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    From that list what do amber rudd and supermarionation truss have in common?

    dangerousbeans
    Free Member

    That’s me….. always backing the Tories.

    I am working-class, I intensely dislike “wokism”, and I very strongly supported leaving the EU.

    For the intellectually lazy that can only mean one thing – I am a racist Tory.

    What less could it possibly mean?

    I don’t think he was aiming at you, he did specifically say Tory (Red Wall) voters.

    twinw4ll
    Free Member

    What is wokeism?

    dangerousbeans
    Free Member

    What is wokeism?

    Formally it has been described as ‘alert to racial prejudice and discrimination’ and expanded to include sexism and a variety of other isms.

    I don’t think it has a real meaning any more.

    Everyone just uses it to describe the bits of being nice to people that they don’t like.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Sorry ernie certainly not a dig at you, I don’t think anyone can seriously accuse you of being a Tory, I was responding clumsily to your point about policy being the Tories downfall, the red wall voters didnt care about the optics of Johnson’s behaviour and lapped up his denigration of others. Now things have started to bite they were expecting to be supported, not happening with Truss around. These voters don’t care about the bigger picture as long as they are Ok. Many were once key Labour supporters.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Sorry ernie certainly not a dig at you, I don’t think anyone can seriously accuse you of being a Tory

    Okay thanks but I don’t know what makes me different to the average red wall voter – very little imo … working-class, basic education, anti-woke, anti-EU. Why am I not a racist Tory?

    Obviously someone like Tony Benn, or former Labour leader Michael Foot, who were as much anti-EEC/EU as me, and in fact in the case of anti-ECC even more so than me, would never be called racists. But in their defence they were professional affluent middle-class intellectuals, like red wall voters I have no such defence.

    I think also a problem is many people appear to have forgotten what the term “red wall voters” actually refers to. It refers to areas of the UK were voters since well beyond living memory had voted Labour until 2019, they still managed to vote Labour in the general election 2 years earlier.

    So what happened between 2017-19 that caused areas of the UK to return Tory MPs after having elected Labour MPs since the Labour Party first became a credible political force? A sudden mass change of personality caused them to become racist Tories?

    These red wall voters even managed to support Labour through the Blair years, which is more than I managed to do. I returned to Labour in 2017 but, like red wall voters, became bitterly disillusioned with Labour by 2019.

    Today that has dramatically changed, Labour now has an even higher lead over the Tories in the red wall areas than Labour has on average throughout the UK

    Latest Red Wall Voting Intention (3-4 October 2022)

    Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 38%, a staggering twenty-three points more than in our previous poll two weeks ago, and the largest lead ever achieved by any party in our Red Wall polling. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 19-20 September) are as follows:

    Labour 61% (+12)
    Conservative 23% (-11)
    Reform UK 3% (-4)
    Liberal Democrat 7% (+2)
    Green 4% (–)
    Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Labour’s 38% lead over the Tories in the red wall is far higher than any national opinion poll. What’s happened, have they suddenly had a mass change of personality again? Aren’t they racists anymore?

    Whilst Boris Johnson was PM it was far from sure that the red wall would return to Labour, now it seems a complete certainty that they will.

    I probably won’t though, I will probably back the Green Party, especially if Labour are certain to have a huge majority. Red wall voters are better Labour supporters than I am.

    Dismiss them as only voting for their own self-interest if you like, it certainly makes a difference to the narrative that they are stupid and vote against their own interests.

    But the reality is that they, fairly reasonably, felt abandoned by the Labour Party, something which Boris Johnson tapped into. The shock of Liz Truss’s agenda of rewarding the rich for being rich and everyone else paying for it has been a wake-up call for them.

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Ok no idea whether you are racist although you dont post as if you are. You’ve made it quite clear you dont vote Tory so I think it’s safe to say you’re not a Tory.

    appear to have forgotten what the term “red wall voters” actually refers to.

    Fair point it’s become a generic term to describe previously Labour voters from the north who voted Tory last time around. People who voted Labour traditionally as they thought Labour was best for them personally rather than thought Labour was better for society. They showed their true beliefs when the Tories dangled their racist and divisive click bait policies in front of them.

    Aren’t they racists anymore?

    Course they are, always were, just historically Labour’s promise to look after the incomes of the working classes trumped their racism. The Tories trumped Labour’s fiscal policies (at the risk of waking Binners up Magic Grandad was far to likely to give money to people they deemed other or underserving) with the racist narrative of Brexit.

    Now Liz has made it clear tax cuts aren’t for the likes of them and BREXIT is done they’ve gone back to the party they think will most likely look after them personally. Most Labour voters are no different in their motivations than conservative voters, they will vote for whatever chimes best with their circumstances and personal vested interests. Where you start to see a difference is middle class voters where these vote Labour can afford to have principles, Tory middle class voters generally still vote in their own interests. Of course there will be many voters of all backgrounds who dont conform to my stereotypes but I think the majority do.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Optimistic, if you ask me…

    pk13
    Full Member

    Caretaker being flow in due to poor health of the PM?

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Aren’t they racists anymore?

    Course they are, always were,

    Sorted, all working-class Labour voters are racists. Why make things complicated when simple bigotry answers everything easily?

    In other news it seems that the Labour lead in London is currently almost as great as the Labour lead in the red wall.

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tories-wipeout-in-london-as-new-poll-shows-every-conservative-mp-in-the-capital/

    The Conservatives have slumped 37 points behind Labour in London

    Out of 73 MPs in London not a single one would be Tory. It isn’t going to happen when the general election eventually comes but it shows the magnitude of the problem facing the Tories with Liz Truss as PM.

    It’s hard to imagine her popularity increasing significantly with time.

    thegeneralist
    Free Member

    Voters appear to fully appreciate that. They are not quite as stupid as many on here like to believe

    No, they really are.

    Just wait till the election.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Remember, the “red wall” swing was mostly about FPTP and the UKIP and Lib Dem collapse. Labour’s vote share was pretty much unchanged from 2010 to 2019 in the red wall. It did fall from 2017 to 2019 but that was just reversion- it went 39%, 42%, 50%, 39%.

    It’s just, in the same period the “not labour” vote went from being split 19% lib dem 32%, to 5% lib dem 17% ukip, then 3/3/42 in 2017 (with Labour picking up slightly less votes from the lib dems and ukip, pushing them to that exceptional 50%). And then a bunch of those voters who’d moved to Labour in 2017 from UKIP and the Lib Dems, moved Tory.

    When the dust all settled Labour had the exact same 39% vote share which had made the red wall seem so red and wallish.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Remember, the “red wall” swing was mostly about FPTP and the UKIP and Lib Dem collapse.

    The LibDem collapse and FPTP are very important, and that helps to explain why despite Labour having a greater share of the vote in 2019 than under either Ed Miliband or Gordon Brown the Tories ended up with such a huge majority.

    However the LibDem collapse had already occurred in 2017 when according to your figures the Labour vote in the red wall seats was 50%. The question is why did it fall to 39% two years later?

    IMO the answer is brexit and the Corbyn factor.

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/fifteen-former-labour-mps-take-out-newspaper-advert-urging-voters-to-reject-jeremy-corbyn

    The term red wall wasn’t in common usage at that time but that article refers to red wall seats:

    “The group has put their names to full page adverts in a number of local and regional newspapers in the north of England.”

    I do agree though that the slow decline of the Labour vote in the red wall seats goes back to at least 2010, after 13 years of Labour governments doing little for them and a Labour Party which took their votes for granted whilst they wooed voters outside the heartlands, disillusionment was bound to set in.

    With control of both local authorities and parliamentary seats the Labour Party was often seen as “the establishment”.

    kerley
    Free Member

    Sorted, all working-class Labour voters are racists.

    A lot of people are racist to some level. They will be Labour voters, Tory voters and Lib Dem voters. It all depends on the priorities at the time (helped by some populism) on whether keeping out people is more important than being able to live.
    Brexit was largely about keeping out people and taking back control and the financial aspect was low priority or brushed off as project fear as finances were not such an issue for people as say now.

    pictonroad
    Full Member

    Interesting personal stance Ernie, how much personal financial loss will the category of voter you’ve singled out be prepared to stomach for this ideological stance?

    Brexit and the current fiscal strategy has taken hundreds of pounds a month from them. How much is it worth?

    kimbers
    Full Member

    The Tories eating each other is amusing

    I love that because Shaps can use Excel he’s the most dangerous of all the MPs

    But the sharks are circling. Even allies are unimpressed by the functioning of Downing Street so far. A serving minister said: “They’re f***wits. They think they’ve turned it around. But they don’t understand politics.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-rebels-smartphone-spreadsheet-that-means-liz-truss-is-still-in-deep-trouble-0shzg86hq

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Is that just an advert for a phone? Not looked past the paywall.

    nickc
    Full Member

    As Biden proposes pardoning everyone currently in jail with a cannabis conviction in the US, Braverman contemplates making it class A

    I think the Times broke the story, found more or less the same story without a paywall. 

    binners
    Full Member

    Interesting analysis in this mornings Observer of Truss and Kamikwasi’s unhinged libertarian nut-jobbery

    And the totally suicidal economic incoherence of it

    The bottom line seems to be that only the most demented Ayn-Rand-worshipping, hard right nutjobs (ie: most of the cabinet, but not many outside it other than John Redwood) will support this, so they can’t actually get any of this lunacy through the commons.

    When Iain Duncan Smith and Nadine Dorres are saying they won’t support it as its far too right wing, then you really are exploring the outer limits of the political wilderness. It’s staggering that they can’t see it. Or maybe they can but they just don’t care

    So far they’ve threatened to treat the top rate tax vote as a vote of confidence in their own government and had to back down when Graham Brady had a word and said they still wouldn’t get it through and they’d lose their majority if they tried. Expect a lot more of that sort of thing. This whole ‘mini-budget’ is going to fall apart piece by bonkers piece

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    This whole ‘mini-budget’ is going to fall apart piece by bonkers piece

    I hope you are right mate. I hope they turn on each other like rats in a sack.

    If any of the more moderate ones had any principles, they would not allow the government to get this through Parliament. However, as a lot of them don’t have principles and will lose their jobs at the next election, I can see them allowing through for their own short term benefit. Even though they though this Britannia Unchained nonsense is going to wreck the Country.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    kelvin
    Full Member
    Is that just an advert for a phone? Not looked past the paywall.

    Just register you get a few free reads a week

    Basically saying that the there are multiple factions within the party planning for getting truss out

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I am very pleased that Johnson was PM during the pandemic and lockdown rather than Liz Truss, I don’t mind saying so.

    I absolutely 100% agree with you.

    In other news, I’ll take my dogshit sandwich on wholemeal rather than white.

    binners
    Full Member

    I shudder to think where we’d have ended up if Liz ‘its not the job of government to interfere in peoples lives’ Truss was in charge during the pandemic.

    Probably making Bolsonaro’s Brazil look sane in comparison

    Basically saying that the there are multiple factions within the party planning for getting truss out

    And also changing the leadership election rules so that 80,000 senile racists can’t impose another economically illiterate headcase on the country

    CountZero
    Full Member

    working-class, basic education, anti-woke,

    So all for prejudice and discrimination, then. Nice. Texas has a welcome mat all ready for you. And it’s a Red state, appropriately.

    FWIW, I was brought up working class, never got beyond doing CSE’s at school, but I was taught to treat everyone the same, regardless of place of origin, gender, etc.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    I heard something on a political podcast recently. Can’t remember which one but it was about a bit of research that basically showed the right understands the left much better than the left understands the right. You can see that on this thread where lots of people seem to find it hard to understand how anyone can vote Tory. But rather than try to understand the appeal of the Tories (which is surely a pre-requisite to beating them) there is a tendency to just assume that their voters are stupid, racist, selfish etc.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Tories Vs the Spice Girls

    Part two…

    “I try not to be political but in all honesty it’s a flipping disgrace.

    “You’re talking about the bankers getting their bonuses.

    “I’m in a very privileged position, I can’t get up on my high horse and start saying things, but I think any person with any morals can see what’s going on isn’t right.

    “I think we all feel just so worn out by it all and it concerns me what’s going to happen. People are desperate, what is going to happen?”

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    working-class, basic education, anti-woke,

    So all for prejudice and discrimination, then. Nice.

    Because I think accusing people of racism because they say “coloured people” instead of “people of colour” is bollox that makes me prejudice? Get a grip FFS.

    I am intensely opposed to all prejudices, including those based on colour, sex, race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, and class.

    Some people seem to think that certain prejudices are perfectly acceptable, including on here. The obvious examples are that all working-class are racists and all Tory voters are uncaring selfish bastards.

    Those are two blatant prejudices on here which on more than one occasion I have found myself arguing against. As indeed also prejudices against people’s religions, although that does seem less prevalent these days.

    As I have said recently, I judge people as individuals, I leave bigotry to others.

    And I don’t much appreciate the sanctimonious middle-class self-appointed woke police, full of their own personal prejudices, accusing working-class people of sexism and racism and telling them how to speak.

    And it’s not just me that it pisses off – whole swathes of the electorate are wound up by it with unfortunately very negative consequences. HTH

    kimbers
    Full Member

    woke police,

    There’s woke police 🚨 !!?? 😳

    kimbers
    Full Member

    FWIW, I was brought up working class, never got beyond doing CSE’s at school, but I was taught to treat everyone the same, regardless of place of origin, gender, etc.

    What saddens me is that my parents were quite implicit that people should be treated equally and fairly, when I grew up.
    It’s pretty depressing to see them drift to the right as they’ve aged, my dad certainly way more openly homophobic and both seem to have become more racist, especially towards Travellers/ gypsies & eastern Europeans as well as South Asians etc, even though as far as I can see they have very little interaction with them.

    Much of this prejudice comes from the media they consume.
    Brexit certainly brought out a side to them I’d not seen/ been aware of. They bought into the vote leave/ farage propaganda & bigotry very easily

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    they say “coloured people” instead of “people of colour”

    Not racism, just honest to goodness ignorance from those that use the former term. How hard can it be to be less offensive to those that differ from you?

    I am intensely opposed to all prejudices, including those based on colour, sex, race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, and class.

    So “woke” then despite your protestations to the contrary. Welcome to the caring side or were you just trolling?

    mattyfez
    Free Member

    There’s woke police 🚨 !!?? 😳

    What does ‘woke’ even mean anyway? It seems so be some sort of slur made by bigots to anyone who shows an ounce of compassion about anything?

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Its all going much as I thought / hoped..
    truss has trashed the Tories reputation and is so incompetent that she has her party openly rebelling against her meaning she will struggle to get any policy changes thru parliament.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    What does ‘woke’ even mean anyway?

    It’s an American import, just like “people of colour”.

    bearGrease
    Full Member

    >So what happened between 2017-19 that caused areas of the UK to return Tory MPs after having elected Labour  >MPs since the Labour Party first became a credible political force?

    Corbyn

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Corbyn

    I’m afraid that isn’t the correct answer – Corbyn happened in 2015.

    The Labour vote went up in the red wall seats in 2017.

    mattyfez
    Free Member

    I had to look it up…

    “Woke means being conscious of racial discrimination in society and other forms of oppression and injustice.”

    So to be anti woke, it basicaly means you do not belive in justice, and in favour of opression and are a racist.

    Ok, gotcha.

    Jordan
    Full Member

    they say “coloured people” instead of “people of colour”

    Both sound like discrimination to me.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    basicaly means you do not belive in justice, and in favour of opression and are a racist.

    Yup, but surely you can tell from my posts that I don’t believe in justice and that I am in favour of oppression and racism? Why the need to look it up?

    I had already outed myself in the first post on this page.

    cb200
    Free Member

    So what happened between 2017-19 that caused areas of the UK to return Tory MPs after having elected Labour

    <<hits buzzer>>

    that hugely divisive Brexit thing?

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