Liteville or Nicolai

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  • Liteville or Nicolai
  • Rik – Member
    That is true. It something like the Ion 16 is listed on the Nicolai site as being about 8.25lb

    Frame is listed at 3.2kg, which is 7.05 lbs.

    They do picture an orange frame with Monarch plus and headset included on the site, which is 3.95kg – that’s probably where you’re getting your number from.

    Rik
    Member

    3.2kg is without shock, 3.95kg with shock (not the lightest but not the heaviest either)and hardware. So 8.7 lb, so even heavier.

    Now compare that to a Bronson. There starts to be a big difference.

    I’m not a weight weenie by any means. I ride fast, so would never use say Crests rather than Flows as they would not last very long. But times have moved on from a few years ago, if you can afford it (and I’m not saying I can), you can have a strong dependable and light trail bike, so 8.7lb for a frame and shock starts to look heavy.

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    My Ion29 is 29lbs with pedals and 1.9kg tyres. frame is 3.3kg. You can’t compare carbon and Aluminium, if you’re that weight obsessed, just buy carbon. If comparing Aluminium there will be a strength and stiffness difference between comparable frames from competent manufacturers if one is much lighter.

    Biggest difference to how a bike rides…buy good light stiff wheels and forget the 1lb on the frame.

    Ncolai won’t be launching a 650b 140mm travel Ion at Eurobike. 650b Ion16 you will see.

    An alloy Bronson is 3.1kg using all sorts of hydro forming , which Nicolai won’t do as they would contest it compromises strength.

    maurizio
    Member

    Popcorn anyone? 😆

    Rik – admittedly some of the ‘big’ manufacturers are bringing out lots of fancy new 650b frames for this/next year but lots of other companies are sticking with or offering 26″ cotic for example. People new to mtb will undoubtedly be buying from big companies however mountain bikers – lets face it, we’re all niche whores and proud – are buying the ‘nice’/rare bike the one that has the ‘geometry’ to suit them! All of which come from companies such as nicolai or on-one etc. and as ‘ahem’ *we* dont care for this new size or changing our components we’ll be buying 26 (or god forbid 29 – 😛 ). FURTHERMORE you are discounting the ware houses full of stock out there, the raging secondhand market and the growing (in reliability) asian/niche companies that provide 26 because thats what ‘we’ are paying good money for. I’m about to drop huge coin on my first and hopefully last dream bike.. nicolai and 26″ – if in 5 years 26 is fading away i’ll stock pile a couple of rims!

    PHEW – back to the OP, i’d go nicolai if ultimate strength is important and liteville of your planning a lighter build. Between the two there isnt really much, i personally prefer the looks of Nicolai bikes!

    boltonjon
    Member

    Nice one maurizio!

    I’ve invested heavily in 26″ wheels over the last 2 years and i have no plans to change anything major for at least 5 years

    I’m 6ft 4″ and everyone tells me that i need to ride a 29er

    Well, i’ve ridden a few, and yes, they go quick, but i’d rather be hammering my 26er through the tight stuff – which is the objective for 90% of my riding

    Fox, Sram and others would be crazy to discontinue forks for the 26er – the volumes manufactured might go down, which might push the price up – but they’ll still be available

    This whole wheel size thing is nothing more than a marketing man’s wet dream – and what a wet dream he’s having with all the public jumping on his spunky little bandwagon 🙂

    Although I don’t entirely agree with this:

    So if we ignore the question of being suckered into the whole very slightly different sized wheels/biggest con job in the history of MTB and you are falling for it argument…

    I think this is up there amongst some of the silliest comments I’ve ever read on here, and that’s saying something!

    Oh and you can sod off with that comment – grow up. 26 inch is dead and 650b is here to stay. Didn’t say I wanted it, but we are being forced to have it. So I’m not going to buy a frame that going to be out of date before I even ride it.

    Can I interest you in some new clothes, Emperor? 😉

    wrecker
    Member

    Jury is still out at the moment IMHO. The big boys have jumped on 650b (less spesh), but no announcements from some smaller enthusiast manufacturers like Transition, Yeti, Devinci, Knolly and others like Nic and Liteville haven’t committed fully as yet. SC still have 26″ bikes in their 2014 line up as do spesh, kona and trek. Top end revs, pikes and lyriks, 32, 34 and 36 Floats all still available in 26. The Mavic enduro wheels are available in 26, and that’s a brand new product. Let’s not forget, many on here claimed that 29 would be the death of 26 and it just didn’t happen.
    Having said that; we’ll just get whatever america buys, so it’ll probably be 650b as Rik said.

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    And smaller companies with smaller production runs can adapt quickly.

    Mrtrotter
    Member

    I have a Medium Liteville 301 mk10. Only things I’d change is the size. Feels a tad short (I’m about 5 foot 9 or 10). Previous bike was an 18.5″ Trek Remedy, which was spot on sizewise. It’s also a bit bobby on climbs even with the shock set to firm but I can live with that. My 301 has 140mm rear travel , 150mm front (lowered Fox 36). 26″ wheels, 1x 10 gearing. I like the 301 so much that I’m thinking of selling my other bike (Hardtail) as it never gets used. It has the ‘pop’ of a hardtail and yet very smooth/supple rear suspension. As a 30lbs trail/enduro type build it feels light and nippy. Syntace kit is also well thought out and works well. Recently did a 30 mile local mtb challenge (Pennnines)on it and managed to keep up with at least some of the xc whippets. Having said all that, I only got my 301 as it was 2nd hand and a very good price. Can’t comment on Nicolai. I’d be comparing the geometry and sizing between the 2 then get a test ride or 2.

    Rik
    Member

    I’d be an XL in both Nicolai and Liteville to get the top tube length long enough

    Rik – Member
    I’d be an XL in both Nicolai and Liteville to get the top tube length long enough

    You can ask Nicolai to do you an XL top tube on an L frame though, to avoid riding a gate.

    My Nicolai Helius is the best bike in the woooooorrrrrllllldddddd.

    Rik
    Member

    You can ask Nicolai to do you an XL top tube on an L frame though, to avoid riding a gate.

    Is that not classed as ‘custom’ so another £650?

    Be great if you could and it was included in the price….

    messiah
    Member

    That is not considered a full custom… IIRC it might have a cost but its certainly not the full £650.

    geetee1972
    Member

    You can ask Nicolai to do you an XL top tube on an L frame though, to avoid riding a gate.

    Most likely it would be a Large seat tube on an XL bike as that would only cost £90 whereas the other way around would attract the custom charge of £600.

    FWIW (having had this myself) the shorter seat tube doesn’t change the stand over height at all. All they do is cut the ST short so you lose the extension and the bracing struts.

    It ends up looking less like a gate, but rides the same.

    Rik
    Member

    Cool – thanks for that. Heavily swaying towards a 650b Helius L with an XL top tube

    Going to see if I can get a go on the moonglu one.

    Rik
    Member

    Geetee – what does your highly spec’d bike weigh?

    Premier Icon mmannerr
    Subscriber

    I don’t know anything about Litevilles but I’ll have to say that Nicolais have quite disappointing bearing system in the main pivot.

    For my mates riding a lot they have had to replace every moving part 2-3 times per season and even for normal riders the lack of maintenance will result in worn axles and shot bushings in a lot shorter time than other brands. Somehow this bearing problem is not mentioned often in the discussions but I think there was 4 Nicolais in our group a while ago and now there is only one…
    Nicolais do look cool and custom geo options are nice.

    geetee1972
    Member

    Geetee – what does your highly spec’d bike weigh?

    With an air can on the back and the BOS Devile fork, 30lbs dead.

    I don’t know anything about Litevilles but I’ll have to say that Nicolais have quite disappointing bearing system in the main pivot.

    I had my first Helius three years and never had a problem. Had it serviced twice and it covered something in the region of 3000 miles. It’s not a fit and forget system and it does need looking after so maybe your mates weren’t doing that part right?

    The lack of mention is a clue I think.

    Rik
    Member

    I don’t know anything about Litevilles but I’ll have to say that Nicolais have quite disappointing solution bearing system in the main pivot.

    Majorly differing views here one post says bearing life is fantastic due to quality control, tolerances and stiffness – 2 year + bearing life.
    Another post says needs changing 3 times a year…….yikes!

    Rik
    Member

    I had my first Helius three years and never had a problem. Had it serviced twice and it covered something in the region of 3000 miles. It’s not a fit and forget system and it does need looking after so maybe your mates weren’t doing that part right?

    Is that just removing the bearing covers and refreshing the grease?

    geetee1972
    Member

    No that was the bike shop taking all the axles out, cleaning and regreasiing. The tolerances are so tight between the axle and the bushing that you can’t physically get grease between them without taking them out.

    The adjustment you need do keep an eye on at home is simple wear, especially around the BB pivot which sees the most stress. The bearing covers are actually pre-load collars; as the system wears, it will develop play that is easily removed by adjusting the pre-load.

    If you don’t do that, then you will massively accelerate the wear and likely get to the frequency of replacement that Mmanner references.

    Premier Icon mmannerr
    Subscriber

    One of the mentioned bikes was ridden several hundred hours per season by lightweight rider, maintained religiously and it still ate axles and bushings, other ones were ridden more casually and yet required more maintenance than some other bikes. Other thing is the bit artisan way of delivering the bikes… Meaning those AC linkage mounting position changes and very fast changes to models so that you’ll get slightly different bike than guy who ordered same frame as you a week ago.
    Still good bikes and touches like der hanger offset to match the exact frame are really nice touches.

    Premier Icon adsh
    Subscriber

    Tell me more about the awful bearing life.

    I SOOO want a Helius RC I’ve even found out the price for a one off. Bad bearing life would save me a lot of cash!

    geetee1972
    Member

    There is no bad news other than ‘they don’t have bearings in them’. They use, mostly, bushings like Turner. I believe the Horst Link itself has needle bearings in them, but everything else is good old fashioned bushes.

    They are lovely machines and if they are the kind of thing you want, there is very little else that you could consider a substitute or equivalent product.

    Rik
    Member

    Bushings not bearings – didn’t expect that.

    How much is a complete set then? Are the user serviceable like bearings? What tools are required? As I like to be self sufficient.

    Max
    Member

    Don’t let the bushes put you off. They’re no bother – just keep on top of adjusting the preload, which takes no time at all. Oh yes, and wheel size – myself I’m hoping that 650 is 650betamax but that’s just because I own a lot of 26″ kit and just got a new 26″ bike. Ride whatever

    Max
    Member

    Notes on adjustable bearings – applies to bushings equally

    http://www.nicolai-uk.com/index.php/service-2/

    Tools and kit pricing here

    http://www.nicolai-uk.com/?page_id=33

    geetee1972
    Member

    myself I’m hoping that 650 is 650betamax but that’s just because I own a lot of 26″ kit and just got a new 26″ bike. Ride whatever

    Likewise Max – my Helius is less than 12 months old and is full custom 😀 I won’t be letting it go any time soon.

    duir
    Member

    Oh and you can sod off with that comment – grow up. 26 inch is dead and 650b is here to stay

    It’s an emotive subject isn’t it? Sorry I pushed your buttons, I can see it’s much more than an industry lead con to make us buy their new design so they can recoup their R & D layout. Now I know 26″ is dead I will just have to learn to accept it and start saving for a set of 650b everything instead.

    Just out of interest where are you based/do you ride?

    I wouldn’t worry at all about the bushing system, like all things Nicolai, it’s well thought out and made to the highest possible standard and once riding there is no difference in feel between them and bearings. With correct maintenance there is no reason it shouldn’t wear as well as bearings.

    Once you fit proper tyres, tough wheels, wide bars, dropper etc are other makes really that light? If they are really light how long will they last in the mountains?

    Rik
    Member

    Duir – Live in the Peaks – ride there and the Lakes.

    Bushing kit – £140!!! What they bloody made of – precious metals??

    Give Oranges a big advantage – two £5 bearing, 15 minutes to change and last 2 years in the Peak grit!

    duir
    Member

    Duir – Live in the Peaks – ride there and the Lakes.

    Bushing kit – £140!!! What they bloody made of – precious metals??

    Yes that is steep isn’t it? Then on top of that there is a £60 tool so £200 total. That said if what some owners/dealers say is to be believed that a well maintained system can last up to 3 years then it’s probably just as economical as top quality bearings on a multi pivot bike every 12 months. Not as economical as an Orange though but that’s like comparing Bear Grylls to a real ex-member of the SAS/Survival expert……it’s just not the same thing.

    Anyway all sarcasm and winding you up about 650b aside, if you are in T’Lakes or NE Scotland and see a bloke on a large 2013 Nicolai Helius AC raw with white Revelations on (soon to be Black Pikes) it’s probably me. You would be more than welcome to have a blast on it to see if you get on with the design.

    nicolaisam
    Member

    My new Nicolai AC 650b

    And the new 142×12 rear end with post mount caliper mount

    The bearing kit includes 5 axles and all the bearings/bushings (model dependent) and Igus washers. There’s no need to replace, or buy, a full set – it’s very unlikely everything wears at the same speed. We will happily sell you just the parts for a single pivot or sell a complete kit on ‘sale or return’ to refund any parts you don’t use. Tools we rent for £10 and whilst they make the job easier they’re not essential.

    Bearings and bushings are interchangeable – it is possible to run the current frames with the steel axles and needle roller bearings (for some or all pivots) though there is a weight penalty of course.

    geetee1972
    Member

    Bear Grylls to a real ex-member of the SAS/Survival expert……it’s just not the same thing.

    I though Bear Grylls was in the SAS?

    Rik
    Member

    Huge thanks Duir, Simon (nicolai) and Gee tee. All sounds great and proper sound!
    Full kit expensive but will sell you which ever bit you need separately and rent you or sell you the tool 🙂 😀 😆

    Nicolaisam – looks amazing!!

    Right I better get saving the pennys !!!

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    Having just got back from Nicolai and with my friend having had all the bearings in his rear and some axles replaced, I had extensive discussions with the service/maintenance encyclopaedia known as Volker. It was enlightening and showed that I had not been maintaining my bike properly!

    Firstly the caps are not preload. As previously mentioned the tolerances are very tight. Sometimes too tight. The caps are intended to keep the stays from developing any side to side play and causing wear, I guess that is a kind of preload but not in the normal bearing sense.

    Most people when they maintain them (which should only be remove and clean and lightly grease, perhaps replace the synthetic washers if they show signs of wear) do up the caps too loose. They should be tight. When the shock is out and the linkage at the top of its travel it should take 6kg or more (6kg is ideal) of force to move it. This does not affect sensitivity, there is much more going through it when you just sit on it and exerted by the shock.

    Due to the tolerances, if you do the back end too tight, it won’t be a problem, the worst that will happen is it will slowly wear to the right torque. If you do it too loose, it will knacker the bushings/axles. Simple as that. Too tight is fine, just a little too loose is not. If you can rotate the caps after locking them with the grub screw on Helius models, it may well be too loose.

    If the light rider, riding lots, at any point set them up too loose, or even just on the loose side of just right he would get rapid wear. It is surprising how tight they should be.

    I don’t think this is widely communicated and certainly was the case with my friend and why he needed so much changing.

    Also some of the older bushings were hydroscptic and actually got bigger with age and caused increased wear. This is now not the case with any new bushing.

    Just a regular check of tightness of the caps/system is good practice to ensure long life along with removal/clean of the axles/bearings after extensive use in crappy conditions. It’s not a long job.

    The new Ion bearings have some additional sealing in them too which might be cause for consideration if you ride in bad conditions alot AND.are concerned by possible bearing life issues. (Which as mentioned with proper, sensible care you should not be).

    I hope that helps.

    And Rik, if my Ion 29 comes in at 29.5lbs with big wheels, big tyres, big forks and a big rear shock (I know I could lose 1.5lbs no sweat with very few changes) with bullet proof parts, a high end light side of the mark build should come in at 28lbs or less no problem. With pedals, especially if you use tyres at the lighter end of the spectrum like some of the new enduro Hutchinsons.

    messiah
    Member

    Great info Phil, thanks for sharing 8)

    Chainline – what’s your Ion 15 build?

    I’ve built my Ion 16 pretty light but I’m a pound or so heavier

    Rik
    Member

    Great info chainline – not a bad weight on the 29er too.

    Can’t find it anymore but there was a chap on mtbr or the German sites that had a very light Ion 16? He’d rawer and polished all the bits. Very tasty.

    Do we think a 29lb Ion 16 650b or Am 650b is possible with dt 240/flow wheels, Pike 160mm fork, mainly XTR build Raceface carbon Sixc and turbine kit and a Reverb?

    Rik
    Member

    Any thoughts?

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    @honourablegeorge well my bike is kinda bling and probably doesn’t stack up on the weight savings/pound/value scale. I have a stoopid light saddle which saves 1/2lb to start with ( comfortable for me but not all) running XX1, XTR brakes but with Magura Storm SL 203/180 rotors (almost 100g saved over std Simano discs, ti bolts) 15g KCNC seatclamp (surprising how much std seatclamp weighs) Raw frame which is usually 250-400g lighter than a powder coat frame, about the me as ano, the mtbr thread has a spreadsheet breakdown of parts/weights. Enve wheels help , the rims are about 100g lighter than a Flow equivalent set, but I have King/Hope hubs which aren’t the lightest. I have a Pike and a a CCDBair

    I was really surprised how tight the rear should be, 6kg is quite a lot to get it to move.

    I would say 29lbs is very achievable with that basis for a 650b 1×11 or light 2×10 like sixc should do it. Careful bar/stem/brake selection, use the KCNC clamp off XC racer since with a reverb you don’t need to move the post…

    geetee1972
    Member

    Chainline just seen your post and it’s very helpful indeed. Thanks for this. You should put it up on the MTBR site as well if you’ve not already.

    pymwymis
    Member

    Axle width on a liteville Mk 11. Had look at the website – clear as mud – cant find the dims.

    Anyone help please ?

Viewing 45 posts - 46 through 90 (of 102 total)

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