Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 41 total)
  • Learning to swim for triathlon
  • joebristol
    Full Member

    As above I’m planning to do my first triathlon at some point during the summer and I haven’t done front crawl since I was about 10 or so (and it was always my worst stroke that I avoided) – I’m now 39.

    I’m looking to do an Olympic length trim so need to get to the point I can do 1500m non-stop front crawl. In open water.

    I had a first swimming lesson on the weekend – and within that hour (which was awesome – they had Bluetooth headsets so could talk to you whilst swimming) I’ve gone from almost nothing front crawl wise to being able to do the breathing and now looking to improve technique and stamina.

    How long has it taken you to get from almost nothing to 1500m or so?

    I popped to the pool at lunchtime and knocked out about 26 lengths (Garmin proved inaccurate) as a mixture of front crawl / breaststroke / kicking on my back. Found my shoulders were getting tired quite quite and think that’s going to be my limiting factor – as well as getting enough oxygen onboard quick enough.

    I’ve ordered a kick board so going to repeat some of the drills from the lesson – and have another one booked in a months time. Hopefully I build up a bit of distance before then so I’m that lesson I can learn some more drills and work on technique.

    mashr
    Full Member

    I’m looking to do an Olympic length trim so need to get to the point I can do 1500m non-stop front crawl. In open water.

    Jeebus. Sprints and Novices are available as starters you know!

    joebristol
    Full Member

    But where’s the fun in that? May as well go whole hog with it. I had in the back of my mind looking at a half Ironman but decided that’s crazy – the bike is fine but the run would be tricky and the swim so so much more than I could do this year.

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    wors
    Full Member

    I’m looking to do an Olympic length trim so need to get to the point I can do 1500m non-stop front crawl. In open water.

    You’ll need to get to the point where you can knock out 3000m non stop front crawl as after 1500m you need to jump on a bike for 40 km then run 10 km.

    Anyway, took me a good 6 months to get from your starting point to feel confident of swimming 2.4 miles, and then I was still slow. add another 12 months on that to be happy to do that distance in a respectable time!

    sgn23
    Free Member

    A few tips from novices I see in the pool
    Exhale underwater, you wouldn’t hold your breath when running
    Breathing on three strokes (bilateral) gives you a more balanced stroke, but breathing on two might be better to help build up stamina
    Raise your feet closer to the surface, to make a more streamlined position, using your core muscles
    Don’t kick too much, those quad muscles seem to use up more O2 and tire quicker. Just do a gentle kick to help keep your feet up. Focus more power on the arm pulls.
    Mix in a few sprint lengths.
    PS Garmin doesn’t like you switching stroke mid set, so pause and restart and it should record correctly.

    bazzer
    Free Member

    My advice is you really should be swimming 3 times a week.

    In generally just going and swimming a distance is not that productive. Intervals are where its at. When you get tired your stroke suffers and you just practice bad form.

    Join a tri club that do a coached session is a good way forward too.

    I was only doing 3000m sets for Ironman distance swims so I would not worry too much about super long sessions 2000m (as warm up, intervals and cool down) should be more than enough.

    Trick is to swim often though at least 3 times a week.

    cows_in_cars
    Free Member

    This is me at the moment. I want to do an off road triathlon late in the year. I can swim the distance in a semi slow/reasonable time but can’t front crawl for any length of time. Breathing is what gets me most but think there is probably 101 things I am doing wrong. I fip between “this is exciting to learn something new at 40” to “oh my god what’s wrong with you? This is so depressing and embarrassing”.
    I am hoping that going along to the local Tri club swim sessions will help although being dyslexic and mildly dispraxic I worry that I will struggle to follow any instructions well.

    Tallpaul
    Full Member

    Don’t rule out using breaststroke in alternation with crawl during the open water swim. Although it’s not as ‘fast’ I find it gives you a bit of a rest whilst still making progress.

    convert
    Full Member

    At the blunt end of the race there are plenty of completers (rather than competers) that breaststroke virtually the whole thing.

    Assuming this is an open water event don’t discount how much longer it is in open water without the benefit of a wall to push off of every 25m and a few hundred other people thrashing about.

    tbh a 1500m swim for a standard distance and 1900 for a 70.3 event are much of a muchness. The big swim jumps are sprint to standard and 70.3 to full IM.

    If your goal is a standard distance as your main event of the year that does not mean you can’t do a sprint or pool based event earlier in the summer as a gauge.

    Remember this is meant to be a fun thing to do in your spare time – I’m guessing you were not swimming for the last 30 years for a reason. Unless you actually enjoy swimming I’d question why you are bothering and look at a duathlon instead.

    willyboy
    Free Member

    Comfortably (so you’ve got energy left for the other 2 disciplines) I reckon 3 or 4 months, swimming a couple of times a week. You may be able to do the distance sooner than this, but you’ll be knackered after if you’ve not swum for a while. 60 lengths is a good distance especially non stop (there are lots of other factors in open water too; no side to have a rest at/ getting kicked or whacked/ water temperature/ navigating).

    I build up my distance in blocks. Say get used to doing blocks of 8, then repeat 3 or 4 times etc. Following week maybe do a steady 2 x 16 with a couple of breaststroke in between. Next swim do 4 x 8 with a few faster lengths at the end, next swim 3 x 10 but nice and easy. Don’t try and add distance/ speed each swim, do some easier swims in between.

    Always try to warm up and cool down too. I do between 6 and 10 lengths warm up, and 4 and 8 to cool down (depending on how long i can take for lunch).

    As suggested above i’d try a pool based sprint tri 8 weeks or so before your chosen event. This will get you used to the transitions and pacing yourself. Good luck.

    Brick training is good too.

    MaryHinge
    Free Member

    I learnt to do crawl aged 45 specifically to do triathlons.

    It will probably take 6 months to fully get it.

    Try to swim smoothly, be streamlined and etc. Dont go smashing it hard trying to power your way. It’s all technique including breathing.

    Swim as many times a week as possible at least 3 times. Even if they are short 15 minute sessions. I sometimes went and did twenty lengths and came home knackered.

    Expect some days to go well and others to be demoralising.

    It was great to learn new skills in my mind 40s.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    Thanks guys:


    @wors
    – I just want to get round this year and if I enjoy it carry on training and see if I can get a bit faster next year


    @sgn23
    – sounds like some good tips in there. I’m now exhaling all my air out underwater and breathing every 3 strokes – so alternate sides. I think a few more sessions and that will become more second nature. Good tip on the garmin – that must be it. Maybe I’ll just set the timing and count my lengths manually.


    @bazzer
    – I’ve joined a local tri club but want to get a little more solid in the pool before going to their coached session. I plan to try and swim twice a week – once I’ve had my next lesson I’ll start going to the tri club sessions I think.

    I hadn’t really considered using breaststroke to mix it up in whichever Tri I enter – that makes me feel a bit better about it. If I just go to a pool and breaststroke up and down then I could do 60 lengths ok with a few breaks. So if I’m training twice a week until Tehran I’m more hopeful I can get to be confident doing 1500m in open water and with all sorts of carnage going on!

    FYI – my main motivation is to lose some weight and be in the best shape of my life by my 40th bday in December. Already lost 8lbs in Jan and would like to lose another 10lbs by end of March ideally. That will take me to bang on 12 stone which feels about right at 5’9 and with a reasonably stocky build.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    @willyboy – I like the blocks idea – I’ll try and use that next time I go. I’m slightly time limited so need to try and workout when I can get the 2nd half hour per week. At this moment in time I’m not too bothered about speed (hopefully that’ll just come with practice) just getting more comfortable / getting front crawl to be easier / to up the distance I can go with it nonstop.


    @mary
    hinge – good to hear from someone else who has done something similar. Today and Sunday were good days – I’m sure the demoralising days are to come….

    It might be cheaper for me to actually join the gym/swim thing at the local pool rather than paying each time – will make me more likely to go for short sessions too.

    poolman
    Free Member

    2 mates of mine do breast stroke in open water comps. I have watched them a good breast stroke beats a bad crawl. They both finish mid field with a smile on their face.

    I try crawl with a snorkel, the one that comes out the front. I can concentrate on my stroke then. It’s hard but am getting there. Good for your back too as you are flat to the water, as is backstroke.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    There’s some good advice up there but one contradicts totally my own experience:

    You’ll need to get to the point where you can knock out 3000m non stop front crawl as after 1500m you need to jump on a bike for 40 km then run 10 km.

    If you can swim 500m crawl non stop in a pool then the flotation provided by the wet suit will transform that into a comfortable 1500m in open water. I found the effort expended on the swim made next to no difference to my performance on the bike or run unless I swam absolutely flat out. Even training for 3800m open water swims I only trained up to 2500m in the pool.

    IMO the only time you need to train up to the distance is for swims where wet suits aren’t allowed.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    At age 61 I’ve just started front crawl lessons, having only ever managed a crap breast stroke.

    Lots of good tips above about keeping feet up, only relying on 20% of power coming from the kick etc.

    Hoping to do a novice tri later this year. The cycling/running bit will be fine, it’s just the swimming I need to work on really. I’ve certainly not ruled out doing a large portion of it as breast stroke.

    MrPottatoHead
    Full Member

    If you can – try and get as much open water swimming in as you can to get used to the feeling and being in a wetsuit. Personally I still find open water swimming both exhilarating and slightly terrifying, but very different to the pool. You also need to practice swimming straight outdoors or you’ll spend to much effort weaving all over the place-its amazing how much you rely on following the black line in the pool.

    sirromj
    Full Member

    Just before secondary school I did my 10m badge, in a single breath, front crawl. Never did any better and that was pretty much my best ever swim.
    I’m now mid 40’s and have been having weekly half hour swimming lessons for a couple of months by now (with a break over Christmas). Personally finding getting the breathing right very difficult, guess that’s where bluetooth headsets come into their own ;-D
    Have only just started going to extra practice sessions.. Yeah it’s pretty demoralizing attempting to swim in the baby pool under the watch of the bored lifeguard while listening to the social “swimmers” natter non-stop.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    Some interesting experiences up there.

    I hadn’t considered the wetsuit might give extra buoyancy when it comes to open water swimming. I’ve kind of assumed I’ll have a wetsuit swim with a tri suit (or tri shorts / top) underneath the wetsuit.

    My breaststroke is reasonable I think – I reckon I could just go up and down a pool for a fair period of time at not too bad a pace on it. So it’s not I can’t swim – it’s just I was nowhere with front crawl.

    What time of year is the water warm enough with a wetsuit to start doing some open water stuff?

    TheDTs
    Free Member

    Have a look at David Lloyd if you are going down the gym route. They have a Tri Coach, and they have a tri swim session Tuesday at 8pm. and a Tri spin session Weds at 6:30pm (Westbury gym does anyway) Quite a few Triathlon/ironman people in the bike session tonight, never done the swim one.
    They have got 3 gym in Bristol now so one of them may be convenient to you. It’s going to need t be if you are there 3 times a week!

    redmist
    Free Member

    I went from same position as you (survival swimmer) to a 2.00 min/100 Ironman swim in 9 months, so to oly you’ll be fine. Stuck with the lessons, and keep at your own practice. You’ll probably have some breakthroughs when you make big progress and other days you feel terrible. Drills and sets are fine but there was nothing like doing close to the full distance in one continuous swim a few weeks out from the event to give confidence. As Edukator says, buoyancy from wetsuit will help a lot. I sometimes use buoyancy shorts in the pool as a technique boost and to mimic wetsuit swimming, makes a big difference.

    bazzer
    Free Member

    @joebristol

    If your club is anything like mine, don’t worry about getting better before you turn up to a swim. They will normally run a lane system for different levels.

    Some one else pointed out here try and get as much open water swimming in as you can. You would be surprised how many competent pool swimmers panic in open water. Also cold water is something I struggle with. A warm lake in Austria I am fine, sea swim in Weymouth and I can really struggle to get my breath and get into a rhythm. Sometimes I manage it (tenby) and I have a great swim other times (malorca) I really struggled to get my face in the water in the cold and breath properly.

    My friend went from a non swimmer to 70.3 Ironman in two years and Ironman in 3

    Also yes swimming is a technique sport but don’t get 100% hung up on it. For years I thought I was missing the one thing that would turn my swimming around. Like most things, doing a lot of it will improve. Most triathletes are never going to swim like someone who swam for a swimming club since they were 10.

    Once you do get reasonable though you will hate swimming in a public pool, even as a moderate swimmer everyone will be in your way 🙂

    As for breast stroke yes some people do it, but its more fatiguing on the legs than front crawl. Just put the effort in and learn to swim crawl and you will be in a better place and you will feel proud of yourself.

    mogrim
    Full Member

    Jeebus. Sprints and Novices are available as starters you know!

    lol my first triathlon was ironman distance 🙂

    Lots of good tips above, just remember swimming is 80% technique and 20% fitness, I regularly get beaten by chubby swimmers with better technique. I’d be aiming for at least one one-on-one class per week (if you can afford it) and another couple of sessions on your own, either that or join a tri club and do a couple of group sessions a week. And I wouldn’t worry too much about the swim, as mentioned above assuming you make the cut off you can always just do breaststroke.

    bluebird
    Free Member

    As already said there’s a lot of technique to swimming. Having a pool side coach who can help you identify things to work on will get you swimming better faster than trying to work it out for yourself. Find a local Tri club and attend their swim sessions. (Masters swimming sessions might feel a bit intimidating if you’re not already a good swimmer.)

    oikeith
    Full Member

    OP I have just looked back through my garmin swimming activities, it took me 4 months to swim 1650metres in one effort.

    I too went down after not swimming for years, realised granny breaststroke and drowning man freestyle wouldnt cut it so watched a few youtube videos and went to the pool two times a week (occasionally 3). Once I had cracked actual freestyle and breathing properly I did a crude interval strucutre of swimming as many length as I could and then stopped, when I went back for the 2nd session I would aim to swim the 1st sessions lengths twice with a rest of a few mins in the middle. The following week I would then look to swim the same amount of lengths as interval session but with no rest, then the second session swimming the second weeks first session lengths twice with a rest in the middle.

    I did this weekly for the 4 months and then swam 1650 in one effort, due to the way I did those intervals I had done the distance in intervals few weeks before I did it in one effort.

    For getting better, I would watch other swimmers when resting between intervals or ask other swimmers. The big change I found when I started to cover more distance was slowing down my stroke but focusing on being more efficient with it, so shutting my fingers and ensuring I pulled to my thigh, this slowing of the stroke also slowed down my breathing, initially just doing 16lengths/400 metres felt like doing a 100m sprint!

    TiRed
    Full Member

    Spend the money you put aside for posh bike wheels on the best wet suit you can afford. I love swimming in the sea as the salt water helps my buoyancy. I also like the waves. Breathing out under water is what did it for me. That and thinking “legs”. Being a cyclist, my legs won’t float so I have to always think little kicks.

    As for effort. Wearing my smart watch, I noted my HR was 140, which is bang on my standard endurance TT rate. So not onerous. I can see how it’s possible to swim the channel four the times if you 1) float 2) eat and 3) don’t go too hard.

    convert
    Full Member

    Being a cyclist, my legs won’t float so I have to always think little kicks.

    I’m really not sure why non swim specialists think this. Yes muscle is more dense than water, but so is bone. And you don’t get many fat legged swimmers. Great lane swimmers also have some pretty impressing leg strength (with commensurate muscles) to push off the wall and competition pace.

    Sadly sinking legs is a technique thing not a being a cyclist thing. Mostly about head position. And an inability/ acknowledgement of the need to point your toes.

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    Well done for jumping in.

    You need to focus on technique, technique, technique….. arguably swimming is actually a skill sport …. so try

    Ten sets of 4x25m… with a good rest in between (2mins) and don’t go zooming off on the first length of each set 🙂

    Stamina will come naturally and then you can focus more on it at a later date. Don’t go knackering yourself out which will result in your stoke going to pot and then you’ll be practising rubbish form….. Try to only practise good form.

    After you’ve done a few sessions of that try a pyramid set 100,200.300.400,300,200,100

    Great way to clear the mind, swimming….. there is no room for other thoughts when you are wondering is my bum high enough? Where are my feet? What about my forearms? My elbow is dropping on the left and I’m not using my hips enough.

    Good luck, have fun

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Being a cyclist, my legs won’t float

    My swimming coach agrees that this is a problem but also says that we (cyclists) aren’t used to using the right muscles and that it takes a lot of unlearning.

    poolman
    Free Member

    Some brilliant tips above, much appreciated.

    So slow down the stroke, close fingers, stroke down to thigh. I ll be doing this tomorrow. Keep posting tips howeverbasic or obvious to you.

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    Kinda “lean” (but not too much) on the water with your chest/arm pit, it’ll kept your bum/feet up

    Don’t cross your stoke …. kept you hands when entering the water as wide as your shoulders (it may feel really wide, but kept em there) Try and imagine two parallel poles, your shoulder width apart, running the length of the pool… grab the pole and pull past the hand that’s holding it.

    Close fingers ?? lots say slightly open is better ??? But that’s why swimming is maybe more like golf than an endurance sport.

    ell_tell
    Free Member

    So if I’m training twice a week until Tehran I’m more hopeful I can get to be confident doing 1500m in open water and with all sorts of carnage going on!

    Is that another auto-correct typo Joe, or are you planning on visiting Iran this summer!?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Sadly sinking legs is a technique thing

    Watch people under water with sinking legs and you’ll find they use part of the arm movement to push down on the water (probably because they aren’t rotating their body/head enough to breathe and push down to lift their heads to get air) rather than pulling themselves forward through the water. I’m distinctly dense and low fat, but just use a 2-beat kick going hard and a really lazy 4-beat kick drifting along (2-beat with a shuffle between). Probably 90% of my forward motion comes from the arms.

    In a pool you need quite good technique and to pull reasonably hard to get away with a 2-beat kick but with a wet suit it’s really easy, economical on oxygen and fast. Anyhow have a look at this vid, especailly the way he’s swimming at 2:24:

    Get the coordiation right and the arm movement right, and your legs stop sinking however dense they are. Kicking more will just knacker you.

    And 14:39

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7zCxMy6SUw

    joebristol
    Full Member

    Have a look at David Lloyd if you are going down the gym route. They have a Tri Coach, and they have a tri swim session Tuesday at 8pm. and a Tri spin session Weds at 6:30pm (Westbury gym does anyway) Quite a few Triathlon/ironman people in the bike session tonight, never done the swim one.
    They have got 3 gym in Bristol now so one of them may be convenient to you. It’s going to need t be if you are there 3 times a week!

    I’m not made of money – it’s over £100 a month for David Lloyd (and that doesn’t include racquet sports or even being able to use the jacuzzi / sauna / steam room which is extra) – there’s a brand new one about 15 mins round the ring road.

    I live right behind Longwell Green pool in Hanham so I think I’m going to join there for about £30 a month which also includes Kingswood pool where Kingswood Tri do Thursday night sessions – an hour of swimming sets and an hour of technique separately.


    @bazzer
    – maybe I might go to the tri club sessions a bit earlier than the next lesson – going to get a few more solo practises I’m first before that.

    I’m planning to get up to speed in the pool then think about open water in April and aim for a July or August tri I think.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    The big change I found when I started to cover more distance was slowing down my stroke but focusing on being more efficient with it, so shutting my fingers and ensuring I pulled to my thigh, this slowing of the stroke also slowed down my breathing, initially just doing 16lengths/400 metres felt like doing a 100m sprint!

    The swimming coach suggested I concentrate on fully extending the shoulder forward and stretching with each stroke – I’ve found that slows down the stroke a little / makes getting the breathing right easier / feels more efficient. So this tallies with what you say above – I think it’s keyno don’t try to go too fast / pull too hard and concentrate on getting more efficient and better technique. Hopefully this makes it easier to get enough oxygen in as I struggled with that at the lesson doing a few lengths in a row non-stop front crawl.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    @ell-tell

    B*ll*cks! Stupid iPhone. No plans to go any further afield than Majorca….

    branes
    Full Member

    @joebristol I’m in a similar position in Bristol – decent crawl is on my list of things to get good at. Where did you do your lesson pls?

    TiRed
    Full Member

    My swimming coach agrees that this is a problem but also says that we (cyclists) aren’t used to using the right muscles and that it takes a lot of unlearning.

    Did he say anything about cyclists having the upper body of a 12yo?

    joebristol
    Full Member

    I don’t think I’ve got an upper body issue – I’m not the size of froome – I’ve got a 42” chest at the moment and dabble with weights from time to time. Although I’ve done none so far in Jan –
    I’m concentrated on losing some pounds / improving my cardio at the moment.


    @branes
    – I was recommended a.n.t swimming and on first experience I’d recommend them too. £30 121 or £8 something for a group lesson (max 5 people). Apparently they do open water swimming coaching too with someone in the water with you.

    They specialise in triathlon swim training and Nicky is a triathlete herself I think.

    https://ant-swimming.co.uk/

    joebristol
    Full Member

    Had a disaster swimming this morning – couldn’t seem to get enough air in with breathing for breast stroke or front crawl – might have been asthma related.

    Still ploughed through 30 lengths in a half hour session – just alternating breaststroke with kicking on my back. At least at it’ll get some more stamina into my shoulders / body for now.

    I hate the goggles I’ve got and that’s freaking me out a bit. One pair seal well but make you feel very enclosed and are quite dark. The other pair feel much nicer with a much bigger goggle size b it when you push off the side they seem to let a bit of water in the top. Need to try some other pairs I think.

    Time to cycle to work!

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