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  • Laura Kuennesberg State of Chaos
  • binners
    Full Member

    Makes things worse for who though? For a large portion of the lower/working classes things can’t get much worse.

    You realise that the entire Tory party is looking at that statement and saying ‘hold my pint châteauneuf du pape….’

    kelvin
    Full Member

    For a large portion of the lower/working classes things can’t get much worse.

    They are getting worse. Have been for years. You might be isolated from the additional shit brought upon the UK by these people, but many of us are not.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    TL:DR Cummings was smarter than the directors of the BEEB and used it to his advantage because he’s a psychopathic scheming sack of shit with no morals.

    Pretty good summary, that.
    The problem with the BBC is precisely due to the ability of the government to threaten its funding if it feels the Beeb isn’t being subservient enough. I’ve never really paid much attention to Laura Kuennesberg, or any of the political wonks for that matter, so I’ve been immune to whatever she’s been whittering on about, but there really does need to be a national network that doesn’t rely on advertising, but is entirely immune from intimidation and interference from the government of the day. What sort of legal framework would enable that I don’t know, government is quite happy to change laws to get its way, even when the law is supposedly written to be immune from interference.
    I’m happy to pay for the BBC just for the sheer quality of its nature and science programmes, and its national radio stations, commercial radio is absolute garbage.

    dazh
    Full Member

    You realise that the entire Tory party is looking at that statement and saying ‘hold my pint châteauneuf du pape….’

    Doesn’t matter if it can actually get worse, what matters is that people perceive that it can’t and then start electing the really dangerous types.

    binners
    Full Member

    What? Can you tell me who’s presently more dangerous than this lot?

    You get that the programme we’re discussing is detailing 13 years of total chaos, brought to you by a gang of insane right wing headbangers?

    Daffy
    Full Member

    And any “Cummings ideas would have been sound if it wasn’t for the Tories” line ignores that he was in power only because of people voting for a Tory government. He helped get them in, and him in, by leveraging Brexit as a tool not an aim.

    Who said that?  I certainly didn’t.  I never said they were good ideas.  I said others seemed to agree with some of his ideas.  I only really agree with the idea of strategic, state funded, fundamental, not necessarily applicable, highly exploratory research, I was simply pointing out that he wasn’t a Tory, wasn’t a believer and wasn’t an intentional chaos maker.  He just had some shit he wanted to get done and found a way to do it.  Blame those who gave him the chance, not the man to whom the chance was given.

    dazh
    Full Member

    You might be isolated from the additional shit brought upon the UK by these people, but many of us are not.

    Eh? So now you’ve suffered at the hands of the tories, you want to keep everything the same? You do realise labour are (probably*) not coming to the rescue don’t you? Look at the bigger picture, the reason anyone who can call themselves working class has suffered over the past 40 years is not the result of one political party, but the system of government and the people who sustain it. Labour are as complicit in that as the tories.

    *If you believe what Starmer and Reeves tell us.

    What? Can you tell me who’s presently more dangerous than this lot?

    The people you call insane rightwing headbangers were the same people who paid millions of people’s wages and propped up the entire economy during covid. When the chips were down they did as any other sensible goverment or political party would. That’s not deserving of much credit, but it illustrates the point that they could have been much, much worse. You have a lack of imagination.

    nickc
    Full Member

    I was simply pointing out that he wasn’t a Tory

    He is “of the right” though. Every single one of his forays into local or national politics has been in opposition to left wing ideas and he’s consistently and continually worked with the Right. I think he dislikes the sort of “gentlemen amateur arts degree politician ” that certain parts of the Tory establishment produce, although arguably; that’s exactly what he is himself.

    dazh
    Full Member

    He is “of the right” though. Every single one of his forays into local or national politics has been in opposition to left wing ideas and he’s consistently and continually worked with the Right.

    Are you talking about Keir Starmer here or Dominic Cummings?

    nickc
    Full Member

    Boom and possibly Tish

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Blame those who gave him the chance, not the man to whom the chance was given.

    But that’s so circular… he helped put those people in power, and he knew how shit they would be once there.

    paid millions of people’s wages and propped up the entire economy during covid. When the chips were down they did as any other sensible goverment or political party would.

    A good point. But they didn’t pay Binners, so perhaps don’t rub it in…😉

    dissonance
    Full Member

    It’s surprising how many of you dislike Dominic Cummings since many of you seem to agree with 90% of his beliefs and only disagree with his means of achieving them.

    I am not sure I agree with that high percentage of his beliefs but even if I did the “means of achieving” is a rather important difference. Its also unclear how much he believed in,for example, helping the north vs using it as a way of achieving his aims. Certainly he did very little to actually help beyond campaign slogans and if anything undermined it by the antidevolution campaigns.

    It’s just a shame he can’t add – Tories are idiots + tearing down society doesn’t a good outcome.

    Because his views, in general, aligned with the tories although more of the Sunak pretend techno bro variety than one nation. Whilst he was more about using the tories rather than being a loyal party member he was still very much politically aligned with them.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    He just had some shit he wanted to get done and found a way to do it. Blame those who gave him the chance, not the man to whom the chance was given.

    Eh? Why not hold both accountable.
    If I got made PM then those who gave me the chance should definitely be blamed for being morons.
    However I should also be blamed for being deluded enough to think I could do the job.

    With regards to the research it sums him up really. A half arsed knock off of the US DARPA moulded through simplistic silicon valley view of technology will solve everything without thinking about the larger picture or understanding when technology fails us.

    rone
    Free Member

    Guys the policy is the problem.

    We are being fed a looney-bin economic system stated as ‘fact’ that endless growth will deliver the things that we want when it’s the exact opposite way around. You can’t make a case for small state and somehow growth springs up – like Truss believes, or many of the Tories. State has to come first – any party ignoring this is doomed to failure. This has been the way since 1979 not 13 years ago. The stripping of the state gave us the growth between. That’s eroded now.

    Harping on about Tory behaviour solves nothing. It’s a rotten distraction. Well behaved neoliberals like Starmer are not rewriting the narrative. Tories control the narrative and we seem to be stuck in this reactionary world.

    We need a new way of prioritising things. And stronger political will.  Either pay now for Climate Change or pay when it’s too late by way of example.

    Twodogs
    Full Member

    Oh change the record, please!

    dazh
    Full Member

    Oh change the record, please!

    Truth hurts!

    Daffy
    Full Member

     Its also unclear how much he believed in,for example, helping the north vs using it as a way of achieving his aims. Certainly he did very little to actually help beyond campaign slogans and if anything undermined it by the antidevolution campaigns.

    I never said he believed in the North, nor that he wanted to help them.  He believed that the North was under represented and taken for granted and tried to tell people.  Had Labour actually listened, properly listened to what he was saying almost 10 years before Brexit, we might not be here now. Instead, he used what he knew and what he’d actually stated to win the referendum, an election and a chance to enact change.  He might well have believed his grand goals would help by eliminating migration as an issue, stabilising British politics, etc, but only he would know and who would believe what he said if now asked about it?  Again, not defending DC, just saying that people keep attributing things (desire to help the North) to statements (under representation of the North) and then complaining that he misled them.  It’s all there in black and white.  The Tories used him to eliminate UKIP (truly their only real goal, right?) via winning Brexit via targeting the disenfranchised areas of British politics. He tried to use the Tories to get into the halls of power and break apart what he saw as non-functional systems or hindering issues which he believed were the major (only?) drag on British politics.   My stand is that he was blithely/willfully ignorant to the incompetence of the Tories, despite having worked with Gove for almost 10 years.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Dummings is a stupid person’s clever person. He’s never actually done anything of note in his miserable life, just smashed things up. He name-drops shameless from all the books he’s read, about things he couldn’t begin to create or even properly understand.

    The Oxford humanities education consists largely of training people to bullshit volubly and fairly convincingly about things they don’t understand, based on a shallow reading of authoritative sources. It’s pretty much the human equivalent of ChatGPT. When such people stray into areas that you actually have direct knowledge, their shallowness is immediately apparent, but most of the time, for most of the audience, that doesn’t really happen much and their voluble bullshit appears authoritative and convincing.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    He believed that the North was under represented and taken for granted and tried to tell people

    Did he? Then why did he campaign against the attempts to better represent the north?
    Cummings entry into politics was a campaign against (Prescotts baby) the northern devolution which would have resulted in better representation for the north. The campaign was pretty much a carbon copy of all his future ones. Filled with lies and claims about giving money to the NHS.
    He also did the same bunch of lies against the AV referendum. Once again resulting in the north being underrepresented.

    My stand is that he was blithely/willfully ignorant to the incompetence of the Tories

    Nope. He was blithely and willfully ignorant of the fact that his own ideas were a bunch of half baked ted talks on steroids and unwilling to accept that whilst he is probably skilled* at negative campaigning he has absolutely no talent or skills at leading and inspiring people.

    * I say probably skilled because I dont think he has ever gone against the right wing rags and hence been tested without having serious support. Just like Cameron up until the brexit referendum so it may be he would fall apart without that support.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    that’s the problem. They are all from the same establishment clique

    You’d be surprised how many top civil servants aren’t from that background, but don’t let facts get in the way….

    The comparison between Cummings sneaking into power and the Rise of tbe Nazis series on tbe Beeb was uncanny, and very obvious.

    And while many of his criticisms of the government and civil service are valid, simoly smashing it while having nothing lined up to replace seemed very similar to the way we **** up Iraq after Saddam

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Sorry this is a long thread I cannot be bothered to read but has it put to bed the “yeah but Corbyns worse” argument?

    colournoise
    Full Member

    dazh
    People like me? Last time I looked there weren’t many working class lefty liberal anarchists around. Happy to be corrected though.

    There’s at least two of us.

    greyspoke
    Free Member

    You’d be surprised how many top civil servants aren’t from that background, but don’t let facts get in the way…

    True, but the culture is very pervasive. My daughter is a civil servant and she showed me a report she had written (publicly available). I commended her on how well she had picked up civil service language. She replied “Oh they grind it into you”.

    fourtopsallnight
    Free Member

    There’s no way I’m going to watch this.

    All that will happen is that it will confirm what anyone with 2+ brain cells knew anyway – and make me cross all over again.

    And to have it paraded in my face by someone who was instrumental in some of it just so she can get all frisky at the thought of all that jolly interesting chaos.

    No thanks – tellys are expensive and I don’t want to have to replace mine when I’ve kicked it in.

    Daffy
    Full Member

    Again (and for the last time) you’re conflating identification of an issue with wanting to help solve it.  And again you’re conflating policies with people.

    Many people on here seem remarkably familiar with ALL of Westminster and the people that staff it and are intimately familiar with DC and his strengths and weakness and are able to fairly judge.  It’s uncanny.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    you’re conflating identification of an issue with wanting to help solve it

    If you mean that Cummings has the knack of identifying issues that can resonate with people to garner their votes… history proves you right on that. Few would dare disagree with you. That doesn’t mean we agree that he had any interest in, or the ability to, improve things for us or those around us. Most of us ascertained that to be the case based on his track record well before he was running no 10.

    As someone else said… on the outside pointing out the failures.. great. On the insides adding to the failures… never going to cheer him on for that. I absolutely would stand with any civil servant whose expertise, experience and professionalism was simply scratched out because they chose not to blow smoke up Cummings’ arse and questioned his approach as some kind of all seeing all knowing renaissance man who thought he always knew better than those with more than a surface understanding of their brief.

    Daffy
    Full Member

    That doesn’t mean we agree that he had any interest in, or the ability to, improve things for us or those around us. Most of us ascertained that to be the case based on his track record well before he was running no 10.

    Wow.  It’s somehow me vs. the rest of you 😂

    I don’t disagree that he lacked experience and was quick to dismiss established experience based on prejudice, but let’s face it, he’s not unique in that regard.

    I also don’t ascribe to the idea that he’s incapable of leading/inspiring.  He seemed quite capable of doing both for many years before directly joining government.

    Arrogant, self centred, lacking morals, driven, committed, self assured.  Take your pick.

    As someone else said earlier.  I think it’s a shame people ignored him for ages and will likely do so again, but equally, it’s a shame that some of the changes he wanted to enact weren’t given more structure/thought.

    Twodogs
    Full Member

    Oh change the record, please!

    Truth hurts!

    My comment was aimed at Rone who was about to bang the MMT drum again

    dazh
    Full Member

    My comment was aimed at Rone who was about to bang the MMT drum again

    Yeah I know. 😂

    Rone isn’t the only one who recognises that the govt’s finances are not the same as a households. See my comment earlier about politicians and civil servants pretending they can’t do stuff when in reality it’s because they don’t want to because money spent for the good of working people doesn’t benefit the people they associate with. The lies they tell us about how money works and what the govt can spend is one of the things that needs busting apart.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    My daughter is a civil servant and she showed me a report she had written (publicly available). I commended her on how well she had picked up civil service language. She replied “Oh they grind it into you”.

    Replace “civil servant” with “engineer.
    Most careers are like that.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Rone isn’t the only one who recognises that the govt’s finances are not the same as a households.

    Of course they aren’t. But… every… single… post. In every thread?!

    And, sorry, but this…

    Harping on about Tory behaviour solves nothing. It’s a rotten distraction.

    …is part of the problem. We absolutely need to look at how the Tories govern, and persuade others to help get rid of them. Those of us that thought that having Labour or Tories in power makes little difference have been shown to be utterly wrong by a string of Tory administrations that have been an utter embarrassment to all of us as voters.

    We can’t let the Tories off the hook… we need to be rid of them. Shine a bright light on them.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Again (and for the last time) you’re conflating identification of an issue with wanting to help solve it.

    No I am not. You made a very specific claim about Cummings ” tried to tell people”. I pointed out he didnt try to tell people instead he campaigned against those who had identified it and were trying to fix it.
    Unless you can provide those list of times when he was trying to “tell people” as opposed to simply using it as an attack vector for the length of a campaign.
    Whilst you are at it you could also provide some of those times he was a leader before joining government? In anything other than working as a negative campaigner and think tanker?

    Twodogs
    Full Member

    Rone isn’t the only one who recognises that the govt’s finances are not the same as a households

    Agreed….doesnt make MMT the answer tho.

    Nothing to do with economic theory but I’d recommend Ian Dunt’s How Parliament Works and Why It Doesn’t

    Caher
    Full Member

    For the occasional thread watcher: MMT?
    Edit: got it thanks.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    MMT

    Northwind
    Full Member

    TBH the whole Cummings thing is partly about the myth of the man. I like the idea of a super clever person with outsider ideas coming in and disrupting cozy politics and getting **** done. It’s just that Cummings wasn’t that, he just managed to give a reasonable impression of it for a while, in an incredibly low-expectations political environment.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    I like the idea of a super clever person with outsider ideas coming in and disrupting cozy politics and getting **** done.

    Except that a: He wasn’t elected

    & b: To get where he was he cynically  chose to tell a complete pack of lies.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    “wasn’t elected” is a nonissue imo, the problem isn’t whether he was elected or not, it’s the elected people that were responsible for using his ideas or not. Same as any advisor or civil servant or nominee- I don’t worry that Chris Whitty isn’t elected either.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    it’s the elected people that were responsible for using his ideas or not

    Again, circular… his primary job was to get these people into power. He IS responsible for them being there.

    Daffy
    Full Member

    Again, circular… his primary job was to get these people into power. He IS responsible for them being there.

    You’re really going to have to explain the logic there.  He ran BFS and NFF (both Britain centric) LONG before the referendum neither of which had close association with the Tories.  His “job” wasn’t to get them into power – they were already in power.  He wanted to get rid of UKIP (and stop further integration) and so did the Tories.  They used him and he used them.

    Are you saying he was somehow responsible for their 2019 election victory? UKIP collapse and Brexit delivery (bravado/bullsh1t) delivered 2019.  So, I suppose, by killing UKIP for good, his goal, he did, but it’s not like he enacted policy between 2016 and 2019 that kept them in power now, is it?

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