I suspect that Corbyn isnt that upset about all this

You have no basis whatsoever for that suspicion. I recommend you stop now before you out yourself as a Mail shill.

The thing is, we know the game now and so should Corbyn. The right wing press will dig around and find something juicy, throw it around until it hides whatever The Tory’s are doing badly at that moment in time. We know it shouldn’t happen like that, but it does. So find a leader who either has less baggage to be found or can handle this better.

Binners has already said it, any opposition who are worth their salt would be 20 points + up in the polls against an absolute shambles of a government. That Corbyn is, at very best, level is the biggest insult to him and his team. Blair, Brown, Kinnock, whoever, would be smashing the Tory cabinet at every PMQ’s, would be challenging them on Brexit and would be holding them to account, but they’re not and it’s pathetic. Clearly Cameron/The Conservatives were/are responsible for starting Brexit but if/when it goes to crap Labour deserve a fair amount of blame for failing to stop a minority government putting it through.

My problem with Corbyn is his total lack of any discernable political judgement. Both by himself and the echo chamber he surrounds himself with. Who’s advising him FFS?! Or is he actually listening?

I suspect most people couldn’t give a monkeys about whether he layed a wreath, or didn’t, but they’ll note that he does seem to have consistently expended a lot of political effort over the plight of the Palestinians. That’s all very admirable, and a legitimate cause we’d all support.

But it now stands in sharp contrast to the political energy he expends (or doesn’t?) on far more pressing issues closer to home, to which he seems to be, at best, disinterested

*nobody mention the B word*

And of course, he’s just the gift that keeps on giving for the right-wing press. They just have a quick look through the archives and see what they can line up next.

You can argue about how fair it all is, but Jeremy Corbyns track record is just warehouses full of ammunition for anyone who wants to portray him as unfit to be PM.

With every day that passes with him at the helm, the Labour party stand less and less chance of forming a government. And in the face of what? A complete and utter shambles in government which they can’t, or won’t, properly oppose

That’s a self fulfilling prophecy. If your requirement for a leader of Labour is that he shouldn’t have anything for the Mail to moan about (and for the BBC to pick up) then you’ll end up with someone like, oh, I don’t know – Tony Blair.

you’ll end up with someone like, oh, I don’t know – Tony Blair

Which, in the current political climate, is no bad thing at all. He would be destroying the current bunch at the helm, no question at all.

 So find a leader who either has less baggage to be found or can handle this better.

Apart from the shit can keep getting invented until something sticks. The only way to beat it is to surrender to the press barons as Blair did.

Binners has already said it, any opposition who are worth their salt would be 20 points +

Binners keeps saying it but that doesnt make it correct. Remember that, if anything, Labour are more divided than the tories. For the tories at least they would tend to hold fire to a certain extent to avoid Labour getting ahead whereas the “moderates” in Labour seemingly would prefer a hardright tory government than anything to the left of them.

I suspect most people couldn’t give a monkeys about whether he layed a wreath, or didn’t, but they’ll note that he does seem to have consistently expended a lot of political effort over the plight of the Palestinians. That’s all very admirable, and a legitimate cause we’d all support.

But it now stands in sharp contrast to the political energy he expends (or doesn’t?) on far more pressing issues closer to home, to which he seems to be, at best, disinterested

Again, how do you know what energy he is spending where and over what period?

Oh Christ?!!! Not that?!! The last thing the labour party needs right now is someone who could win 3 consecutive elections

*sits back and awaits howls of “But… but… IRAQ!!!”*

He would be destroying the current bunch at the helm, no question at all.

He really wouldnt. He cleverly jumped before his movement imploded but if he was at the front I would reckon the support for Brexit would be far higher. He is the perfect example of the “professional politician”  that helped lead to the protest votes.

Oh Christ?!!! Not that?!! The last thing the labour party needs right now is someone who could win 3 consecutive elections

*sits back and awaits howls of “But… but… IRAQ!!!”*

This, just this. A leader who knew how to play the game a bit, won 3 elections and presided over a vaguely united country? Hell no, why on earth would we want someone like that?

The last thing the labour party needs right now is someone who could win 3 consecutive elections

And could he win a fourth? Could he bollocks.

You forget how he won those three elections.Namely by ignoring the traditional voters whilst chasing the city money, right wing press coverage and swing voters. The cunning triangulation strategy had the massive flaw that it had to keep moving rightwards for those three “wins”.

Yes it worked for a while but that **** bears almost the same responsibility as Cameron for the mess we are in now. He teed it up nicely and then ran away.

Because Iraq was such a success, right?

whereas the “moderates” in Labour seemingly would prefer a hardright tory government than anything to the left of them

I’m sorry, but that’s the level of paranoid, delusional, bunker mentality cobblers spouted by Momentum and the cult of Corbyn who see fit to label everyone as ‘The Enemy’.

They aren’t a political party, they’re sixth form placard wavers. Most people can see this, which is why Labour can’t make any impact on a totally inept and divided government in the process of doing untold damage to this country

“professional politician”

This IS Corbyn, isn’t it? Perhaps not as professional as Blair, I’ll give you that

Are you arguing for a Trump style “non-politician” to lead Labour (and the country)?

I’m sorry, but that’s the level of paranoid, delusional, bunker mentality cobblers

No. You are the perfect example of it. Or, at a higher level, just look at Mandelson and Blairs splutterings on the subject.

I aint a fan of momentum but I find it fascinating the absolute ideological extremism of the “moderates”. Do you really not see how well you play into the hard rights hands?

The cult of Corbyn is odd but even odder is the Cult of anti-Corbyn.

Are you arguing for a Trump style “non-politician” to lead Labour (and the country)?

Nope try again. I am simply saying that Blair fits the extreme stereotype extremely well. That someone is a professional politican is irrelevant after all Farage and co all fall into that category but just not the stereotype.

sixth form placard wavers.

Repetition. Lose a point.

Surely there is no point to a Labour party that is always in opposition? If Labour want to be in power then they have to have a leader that appeals to the voters in the areas where Labour can overturn a Conservative small majority (or Lib Dems etc) or face being in opposition for ever. Die hard Tory voters won’t do a u-turn and vote the polar opposite of their entrenched views, so leave them to it.

With the present divisions in the Conservatives it is criminal that Labour aren’t way way ahead in the polls. To keep blaming everything on the press, BBC, Blairites, Israel, anti semitism allegations etc etc is simply daft. Get a flipping leader that is media savvy can win a general election or stay in opposition.

The cult of Corbyn is odd but even odder is the Cult of anti-Corbyn.

Personally, I don’t give a stuff about Corbyn as an individual. What I do care about is having a meaningful, electable opposition to hold the current shower to account. We are making the biggest, most important political move this country has made in decades (arguably, ever) and the opposition don’t have a set position on it. We need a opposition who have a clear position and who will fight for it, we haven’t got that now and are large amount of that blame must lie with the leader of the opposition.

Edit, and what is said above, absolutely spot on.

Binners keeps saying it but that doesnt make it correct. Remember that, if anything, Labour are more divided than the tories.

A bit lacking in in the required level of salt, you mean?

It always comes across to me that Corbyn is just utterly unprepared for front-line politics in the UK at the moment. He lurches from one issue to another, issuing half-arsed mealy-mouth statements which neither confirm nor deny anything nor do they satisfy anyone, even his hardcore fans (see: “I was present but not involved” which is the “I didn’t inhale” excuse)

You’d think anti-semitism would be an easy one to knock down but no, it’s been dragging on for months. Sure, the press is happy to keep it rolling but the amount of nothing being done by the labour party makes this easy. When they finally do something to try to contain the damage, the press roll out another embarrassing moment (and I’m sure there are lots more). I don’t know WHO could lead the labour party but the damage being done to them is incredible with the current mode of operation of the party.

Meanwhile, I reckon I’m like an awful lot of people who just sighs and wishes we had an opposition party in anything but name, that was capable of taking advantage of the open goal in front of them in the form of this totally inept and floundering government.

This +1 (from binners on the previous page).

That someone is a professional politican is irrelevant

Why did you bring it up then? Ah… dissonance indeed.

Personally, I want a more professionally led Labour Party. Ideally one that understands post 1970s international trade and politics.

I’ve been think a out this a while and I think it comes down to one of two things –

Corbyn is anti-semitic

Or

Hes a moronic man child that genuinely doesn’t understand the impacts of his actions and why people don’t like him. As long as his fanclub keeps him sweet he thinks he’s doing well. Just like Trump

Surely there is no point to a Labour party that is always in opposition?

Equally there is little point in a Labour party that, in order to win over the swing voters, lurches to a position that results in what would have been considered centre left policies a few years are now considered far left. A balance between the two is needed.

Why did you bring it up then?

There is a difference between the “professional politician” stereotype and an actual professional politician. Blair fit both perfectly and is sort that people were expertly led to hate and “vote against” during the referendum as a strike back against the elites.

we haven’t got that now and are large amount of that blame must lie with the leader of the opposition.

Or just possibly because its an impossible situation.  Its the morons who jumped out of the plane without a parachute who are responsible. Labour are no less divided on the issue than the tories are and there really is no simple answer.

The problem with coming out strongly against is that the Labour heartlands were heavily leave. They would risk Scotland levels of damage and, practically speaking, not much point in tidying up the tories mess for them if they are then destroyed as a party. Particularly given a real risk of the tories lurching even further hard right.

There is a difference between the “professional politician” stereotype and an actual professional politician. Blair fit both perfectly

I think Corbyn does too, albeit a 1980s leftie labour stereotype version not the slick smarmy type of Blair’s era.

i am generally far less anti-Corbyn than binners, but pretty much agree with him here.

Also on the Blair point: he is the only Labour leader in 44 years to win an election. Without him, we could have had 40 straight years of tory governments. Yes Iraq was a **** disaster but it doesn’t overshadow everything else he did.  Maybe others here didn’t feel the benefits of the minimum wage or the NHS boost but i certainly did, and I was very glad of it.

It really annoys me the howls about Iraq, while ignoring everything else new labour did.

Take a walk around any town in the North of England. The kind of down decimated by de-industrialisation in the 80’s, and the kind of place the Tory’s resolutely couldn’t give a flying **** about!

Given what we now know about the Tory’s ideological austerity agenda, and the glee with which they’ve set about dismantling the public sector, I honestly dread to think what these places would look like if we’d hadn’t had Labour in power for those 13 years. Post-apocalyptic wastelands, most probably.

I actually think that for all Corbyn’s ‘man of the people’ routine, Blair and Brown actually understood these places considerably more than him. They invested in the infrastructure that was so desperately needed. They actually gave us a bit of hope after a prolonged period of being ignored, at best, and more normally openly despised by Westminster

Yes, they were far from perfect. Iraq was a disaster, but to just view those 13 years purely through the prism of that is juvenile and ridiculous.

A Labour party in permanent opposition is a pointless self-indulgence. This is something that doesn’t seem to overly concern Corbyn and those around him

It really annoys me the howls about Iraq, while ignoring everything else new labour did.

But feel free to keep parroting the Mail while ignoring everything else Labour say. That is really helpful.

Ah yes… of course….. I forgot…. anyone who criticises Corbyn is a Daily Mail reading, Paul Dacre stooge?

I’ll just repeat:

That’s the level of paranoid, delusional, bunker mentality cobblers spouted by Momentum and the cult of Corbyn who see fit to label everyone as ‘The Enemy’.

Just listening to a Corbyn apologist on Five Live tieing herself in knots, going into minute detail about the differences between the Palestinian organisations he’s shared platforms with, and the ones he hasn’t and thought to myself that this is probably playing right to the fundamental concerns of UK voters at the moment.

As long as Corbyn is Labour leader then the right-wing press will just keep doing this, and the endless paranoid naval-gazing of the labour Momentum faction will carry on being as irrelevant as ever to most voters, at best, and massively off-putting, most likely.

All while the right wing of the Tory party gets to carry on reeking havoc unperturbed by whats laughably labelled HM Opposition

Just listening to a Corbyn apologist on Five Live tieing herself in knots, going into minute detail about the differences between the Palestinian organisations he’s shared platforms with, and the ones he hasn’t and thought to myself that this is probably playing right to the fundamental concerns of UK voters at the moment.

Yep highlighting that detail is vastly unimportant to most people, the simple version Palestinians=Terrorists is much easier to understand.Perhaps some of the news organisations could have gone into that a little more and helped to educate their readers and stopped to question some of the motivations here. But that is hard to get in a headline.

I’ll just repeat:

Yes, you just repeat.

Boring.

Corbyn doesn’t have a radio station, so he can only respond to the agenda that the BBC et al promote.

If your solution is to replace him by Blair2, then the Tweedledee and Tweedledum will continue, with the actual concerns of the population ignored – that worked really well in the Brexit referendum, and I guess it will continue in that vein.

The problem that Corbyn has with the Palestinians and the different groups is that means nothing to the virtually the majority of the population.  And trying to understand the factions with the Palestinians for the last 50 years is a subject for a degree course in its own right.  But what the population do care about is the NHS, education, policing, taxation, etc.  So by him standing up and trying to explain the differences causes people to switch off.

Corbyn and his team need to move the argument.  Come out in favour or against Brexit – come up with their own plans.  Be bold, stand up and LEAD.  Or just b****r off

If you can point me in the direction of any actual Corbyn policies that are relevant to UK voters right now, I’d love to read them. Because with everything that’s going on at the moment the silence from the labour front bench is deafening.

You can blame the press for that, but I think thats just looking for easy answers to the fact that those at the top of the labour party fall a long long way short in the job they’re apparently meant to be doing

… by the rest of the sixth form common room. Yes, we know.

It’s a pity that you’re reduced to lying.

If you can point me in the direction of any actual Corbyn policies that are relevant to UK voters right now, I’d love to read them. Because with everything that’s going on at the moment the silence from the labour front bench is deafening.

It’s time for real change – Labour Party manifesto 2019

Here would be a good place to look

the Palestinian organisations he’s shared platforms with, and the ones he hasn’t

A backbench Icarus, more concerned with Palestine than Plaistow.

A backbench Icarus, more concerned with Palestine than Plaistow.

Frankly it seems like the media is more concerned with what went on there than current policy……

But what the population do care about is the NHS, education, policing, taxation, etc. So by him standing up and trying to explain the differences causes people to switch off.

He isn’t choosing to do that, he has to do it to defend his position that the media are putting him in.  If they got him in to talk about NHS, education etc,. then he would.

A key part of his job is handling the media and getting his message out in spite of them.  He manages this via social media but the massive gap is the mainstream media where he would have to work a miracle to win over unless he throw away everything he stands for.  Which is why I said earlier that Labour need a leader who can do that.  Once in power you can actually do the stuff you believe in but to get into power may need a bit more looseness with the truth (it is the way it has gone unfortunately)

binners does have a point

Labours policies are being drowned out by the AS furore, of course the rw press love to monster labour leaders who are even the tiniest bit left wing (same thing with milliband)

Labours message is being lost by corbyns inability to cut through the shitstorm, not sure how he could do it, mind!

This is partly because the brexit negotiations havce stalled over the summer & the serial incompetence of the government is less obvious right now.