Yes. But test cricket is where legends are made, and with his gigantic ego he will want to be in that elite. Compared to his peers that have already made it, he’s still potentially got 5 years left in him at test level.

Are you seriously suggesting that England sack everyone in authority rather than drop one player?

No, not at all, but it is excellent management (if perhaps unconventional in this modern, drab, scripted world of sport) that changed the team of no-hopers we laughed out of Lord’s in July to a team that dropped one match in thirteen games across three formats against us. For the tests, all Australian victories occurred after we had been in a potentially match winning position, getting rid of their top batsmen for not many runs.

Conversely, it’s at best complacent, if not downright negligent management that allowed us to fall so far so quickly. Blaming KP is fine, but as Vaughn says, the management should have been up to the task of managing difficult players, and as the past few months has shown, they weren’t. Interesting, seeing as it’s a task they’d managed quite successfully until the past year or so…

Cook in particular was completely out-captained by Clarke, and indeed there were a couple of catches that came after KP and a word with the bowler (Broady, IIRC) and shifted a couple of fielders whilst Cook wasn’t watching. Clearly KP as captain has been tried once already, but appointing him VC would have meant that his experience and ego was used to the best possible outcome. The team of “yes men” clearly isn’t working.

Ultimately, the biggest loser here is the England cricket supporter.

(And for the record, no, I haven’t played a team sport at any remotely high level. In fact, the last time I played cricket, it was an unwritten rule that you had to field whilst holding your beer! However, I work in a professional, high performing team at work. When you’re being paid to perform at a high level, whether you’re playing cricket or researching science makes no difference in how you manage difficult team members to get more than the sum of the parts. Recently, the ECB have failed spectacularly in this endeavour).

but as Vaughn says, the management should have been up to the task of managing difficult player

By perhaps throwing his kit over the balcony? (See Notts 2004)

Best years are behind him and he’s failing to adapt to that fact. Let him go to India. Can’t remember the last century he scored, and there are more than a few England players with better one day average scores in the last year

Well if KP is set aside I hope they are going to have a full clear out. No one should assume to be safe, including Cook and the management structure that was outclassed. The collective know how of the side plus the various coaches plus the whole of the English media could not get Brad Haddin out.
I am with Vaughan on most of this, though he didn’t seem to have a plan for Haddin either.
Broad captain, Cook out until he can score runs, pick on form from the start of the season. If you are going to select a leggie go for Rashid rather than a player still learning their trade – older spinners tend to get better results. Monty is still playing grade cricket to learn more and develop his game, the remainder of the Test team are at home, trying to forget the last four months?

Well zokes, your experience and belief runs contrary to the ethos of the All Blacks who have a track record of outstanding performance sustained over time. They would not tolerate KPs antics, pure and simple.

But that is only one approach. Of course, there are other successful teams that are able to incorporate the mavericks and indeed English cricket had a captain who was a master of that in Brearley. But as time has shown, captains of that calibre are few and far between.

But I have sympathy with your/MVs criticism of the management team. If you chose to pick a maverick then you have to be able to manage him. All this talk of KP needed to adapt is/was bollocks in my mind. He is what he is, for better for worse. A moulded KP is not KP, it is a weak imitation of the real thing. If you are going to incorporate a maverick you need counter-balances elswhere. The management team where unable to provide this and as a result individuals, the team and the supporters suffered. Ultimately the buck stops there IMO.

I was chatting to an ex-England and an ex-country cricketers on the football touch line yesterday. Both admitted that KP was a **** with the former saying that he would still have him in the national team but both saying he was disliked widely at the county level. The latter concluded, the only good thing was that he was less of a **** than a certain opinionated pundit who was a **** with a capital *!!!

However, I work in a professional, high performing team at work. When you’re being paid to perform at a high level, whether you’re playing cricket or researching science makes no difference in how you manage difficult team members to get more than the sum of the parts.

I see the comparison, but it isn’t the same. A test match side lives with each other as well as works, and if there’s a player on that team that starts to cause friction then that friction soon causes blistering. You don’t get the chance to go home at the weekend and forget about it for 2 days, the source of the irritation will be there at breakfast, lunch and dinner, 7/7 days, for weeks and months at a time. Spending 2 weeks on holiday with my kids, they irritate me deeply, and I love them dearly. Spending 3 months with KP……

It’s a shame that ‘the management’ haven’t found a means to manage him better, but first and foremost his acceptance / integration into the side has to be on the basis that even if he is an annoying ****, his results give him enough slack to overcome that. Unfortunately, his runs* and modes of dismissal, and then saying ‘it’s the way I play, deal with it’ will just have irritated more as opposed to compensating.

* yes, i know he was leading run scorer, but that’s like saying I’m a faster runner than Vanessa Phelps. His runs were hardly game changing, other than the fact that he so often gave it away when he had a chance to change games.

It needs to be remembered that Michael Vaughan had the best years of KP – coming into the side for the first time and needing to establish his place. I would imagine he became rather more difficult to manage after Vaughan had retired.

It appears that the dressing room and coaches were not supportive of Pietersen’s continuing presence which is very telling.

Paul Downton is nobody’s fool. You don’t get rid of your best batsman unless you have no choice. I’m sure that as the weeks go by we’ll get to learn why he has been cut out.

You don’t get rid of your best batsman unless you have no choice

Frankly, Stokes aside, he was the only batsman who looked like scoring any runs in the last test series. The management had better have a damn good set of batsmen waiting in the academy to replace him and the rest of the misfiring top/middle order. And a damn good reason why they weren’t brought on tour instead of three useless beanpoles who height aside, exhibited not one iota of an inkling that they might be able to bowl well at test level in recent months.

I suspect that they don’t. I’m afraid throwing away plan A when it is abundantly clear to anyone outside of their caucus that there is no plan B is not a plan. It’s bloody-mined stupidity. Sadly I’ve come to expect no less from the ECB.

The management had better have a damn good set of batsmen waiting in the academy to replace him and the rest of the misfiring top/middle order. And a damn good reason why they weren’t brought on tour instead of three useless beanpoles who height aside, exhibited not one iota of an inkling that they might be able to bowl well at test level in recent months.

Being pedantic, they couldn’t take three batsmen instead of three bowlers or the squad would have been ridiculously unbalanced.

However, you are right to criticise the selections. Tremlett bowled piss-pace straight up and down filth all summer for Surrey. Finn was in the process of being dismantled and put back together and Rankin was a near novice at this level (and clearly not trusted by the management). Why they didn’t select Onions is beyond me – what does he have to do to get a look-in?

I have it on good authority too that Swann knew he was not fit for the tour, but either he alone kept that from the management or they decided to risk him. Either way, not good.

England need Trott back, that is for sure. As to new batsmen, I really don’t know, but there are numerous examples of promising young players being blooded in bad dressing rooms and disappearing without trace. At least if they are serious about repairing the team ethic, it should make the integration of any such youngsters easier. Vaughan has become a classic media schmooze now – he will raise his profile whenever possible. He is actually Mark (the smarm) Nicholas’s mini-me if you look. Tried his hand at punditry and TV work at the Masters (anyone remember that embarrassing moment with Tiger Woods?) and now feels the need to appear on whatever reality TV shite he can.

The real worry is that Broad and Anderson get the Dukes ball back in their hands this summer and it papers over the cracks.

IF it is to be a watershed, then it needs to be done properly.

Just a thought, but this situation is/was quite similar to the Gooch v Gower blow-up that ran in various forms from 1990 – 1992 and resulted in the end of Gower’s international career. As I watched this as a kid who had not played much cricket, but loved watching it, I came down on the side of Gower. The golden boy versus the dour and humourless Gooch.

As time has gone by however I have come to realise that Gooch really had not much choice. Gower (enlisting the hapless John Morris for one infamous stunt) deliberately undermined the team ethic for a whole Ashes tour, batting like a **** into the bargain (remember the one handed flick off the last ball of the session from Merv Hughes that sailed straight to long leg?). Whatever your loyalties or your desire to be ‘entertained’ you simply cannot condone the deliberate undermining of the team, on the field, in the dressing room or elsewhere.

It is clear that something has happened in Australia that has tilted the balance against the one of the best players in the team – that cannot be something trivial.

Apparently Cook was instrumental in the re-integration of Pietersen after the whole texting ‘scandal’ thing. Now he has been part of sacking him. I don’t think Cook is a devious person or someone who flits from one opinion to another daily – something has gone badly wrong.

The press release wording was interesting. Soundings were taken from some senior players, and evidently no support was coming from them, management or the relatively easy going Cook. We cannot get away from this fact, although ironically a degree of self interest may be at play. If he could have been sacked, perhaps then he should have been as it leaves many questions unanswered if saving him a degree of face and the ECB legal costs.

The problem many will have though is he wasn’t sacked, nor even disciplined. His only crime on the face of it appears to be as always a few stupid shots, some of which could be explained and ignores the innings he knuckled down for more than most. The dressing room doors are pretty shut but even so there was no tittle tattle coming out of Australia let alone hard facts. We may never know what happened but there is a whiff of arse covering, about turn and scape goat about it. It could merely have been a build up of gentle undermining from the way he conducts himself, may be unintentional, to go with also being polite and engaging. KP though had no where to turn – if he had not done anything to warrant sacking but not wanted he could merely not be picked for the remainder of his contract which would be not practical for all sorts of reasons and possibly open to a legal challenge. However cutting the contract now is best for both parties especially with a full IPL thus available to him.

Whatever, its just a shame that our greatest modern batsman leaves in this way – and along with other seniors retired or missing is not ideal. Runs were not as consistent in the last year or two but he was still capable of playing some the great innings as seen in India.

It is true to say that Pieterson had the capability to be our best batsman but he does not have the highest average in any of the last six series he has played in. He had the second highest (29.4) in the last series, just, they were all clumped together in their mediocrity. He also had the second highest (38.8) in the home Ashes series but Bell was streets ahead. He was very poor against NZ (28.33), but had a good series against India with an average of 48.28. However this was only fourth best in an exceptional team performance.

So whilst he has an extraordinarily talent, he will enter the pantheon of sports’ stars who haven’t quite achieved greatness though an inability to maximize it. There is no shame in that, but at 34, on a downward trajectory, you can see why the decision was made.

From the thread title I thought you’d been sacked from your dish washing job!

Sorry “under water ceramics engineer” no offence to any KPs

I’m glad I managed to witness some of his epic batting on the pitch. There were times when he would appear and you just knew the match would change there and then.

He is in my eyes a Hero.

As for the ECB, well a bunch of fuddies in silk ties choking on thier cucumber sarnies on a Saturday afternoon is the overiding image I will take away from this.

I think that the bottom line for Pietersen, as with the rest if us, is pretty simple. If you are going to be ****, confrontational and give it the good old Charlie big potatoes every time you had better a. Deliver the goods every time b. Expect to be unpopular in your team and c. Get the blame when things go tits up.

Pietersen has nothing to cry about. His colleagues have been given the opportunity to back him. They haven’t. I wonder why that is?

I thought we were discussing a replacement for KP? When was the last time he did that, rather than throw his wicket away trying?

I’m a KP fan, very saddened to see him go and left wondering whether there couldn’t have been some way to keep him in the England team. However I can see a good argument on a purely sporting basis for letting him go – as mentioned by Tom Fordyce, the greats adapt their game when they start ageing, to allow for slowing reflexes and weakening muscles. KP showed no sign of being prepared to do this – if he’s unwilling to do so, then his best is doubtless behind him, and it’s a downward path from here. If he had played on, then the best we could have expected was the odd cameo when it didn’t really matter, with lots of failures at other times.

Yes he top scored in the Ashes, but that’s a reflection of the weakness of the rest of the team rather than his strength. The bowling was good, but he didn’t get out all that much to unplayable balls. You can’t build a team around somebody averaging 29 who keeps throwing his wicket away at the wrong time – that sort of form simply means you lose matches slightly less embarrassingly, not that you win them.

I have to admit that in the course of writing this reply I’ve persuaded myself that it was the right decision, having thought it wrong when I started typing!

Yet. Or in the case of Swann, did he jump, or was he pushed?

Vaughan has become a classic media schmooze now

Praps. Praps not. I’d still judge his comments pertaining to a team he recently captained, and players within that team as more relevant than most of the noise – be it media speculation or ECB whitewashing.

I think that the bottom line for Pietersen, as with the rest if us, is pretty simple. If you are going to be ****, confrontational and give it the good old Charlie big potatoes every time you had better a. Deliver the goods every time b. Expect to be unpopular in your team and c. Get the blame when things go tits up.

Despite all your vitriol last time we discussed this, I’m still struggling to see why it was solely KP’s fault we were thrashed so convincingly, including in two forms of the game he wasn’t even in Australia for.

I thought we were discussing a replacement for KP? When was the last time he did that, rather than throw his wicket away trying?

Fair enough comment, but Bell in the summer series excepted, when was the last time you saw any england batsman try?

And media schmooze or not, Vaughn has a lot of sensible things to say in this piece:

The Telegraph

Nothing from Strauss on the whole thing? (at least not that I have seen)

The 2 things of the complete thrashing and what KP is up to or has been up to or may have said are different but linked, if you are not liked, can be a dick, are hard to deal with then the only thing left is to do something that makes you needed. He failed in that one – whatever went on after the return from Oz seems to have left people with no desire to take a chance on KP finding some form, perhaps he was reluctant to take on some of the responsibility for his lack of form, refused offers of help or suggestions to go away and work on some stuff?

I still see him as one of the finest hitters of the ball, with a talent that can destroy teams, unfortunately it seems his personality can also destroy the ones he play for.

He is a luxury England can’t afford right now, a Ronaldo on a wet Tuesday night in Grimsby for want of a comparison. Looking forward he has 2 maybe 3 years left at the highest level of Test Cricket. So if he takes another 12 months to regain confidence and form then thats 1 year of the “Great” KP playing for England. Looking at Wenger and Ferguson in football one of the things they both demonstrated was an ability to let a star go just before the rest of the world realised it was time.
2 home series are a good place to try other players out and give them a good go. It is time to rebuild.

Nothing from Strauss on the whole thing? (at least not that I have seen)

I think Strauss is probably going to keep his thoughts to himself for the time being.

Read Atherton in the Times yesterday, you may have a better understanding of why and how, without knowing the exact details.

Atherton’s piece is some ways lacking a little detail now with suggestions that one or two senior players are somewhat confused by what has happened and Prior called a meeting about Management while on Tour which lead to an argument between KP and Flower. There again Prior hinted about Flower’s style in his column a month ago which surprisingly wasn’t picked up on much. The problem is Prior was probebly the diplomat and KP shoots from the hip.

KP’s recent stats can be played around with as we like. It does seem a slightly odd time to rebuild with what England have coming up in the next 12 months, where his experience would be valuable and which apparently he is always keen to pass on.

Once more we are witness to the ineptitude of the ECB, of the old school tie network placing people into positions of incompetence. Their handling of this whole affair is poor. The media and bike forums are awash with speculation and rumour as to what has gone on. This, IMHO, shows complete disrespect for their supporters, sponsors and most importantly, the team.

I don’t really give a toss about KP, Sir Viv Richards was more talented and capable and went on to captain for his country. I’m not convinced about Cook as captain, nor am I about Saker as bowling coach or Gooch as batting coach.

I recall saying on here back in December after the Brisbane test that something was going seriously wrong in the England dressing room, did anyone listen? No!

Told ya so! 🙂

@Scamper – either you read the guardian, or the Guardian read STW…

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/05/matt-prior-kevin-pietersen-ngland-row

Nope don’t read the guardian, zokes. Prior last month stated the team ethos had changed a bit and gave examples of the little things – espn did a good piece too covering ‘body language’. Prior also seemed to indicate that the management were becoming more involved rather than letting the team express themselves. Furthermore, pretty sure that before his resignation Flower also indicated he’d take this even further. Doesn’t take a genious to guess how differently prior and KP would conduct themselves especially as I believe prior himself contacted KP off his own back over textgate to discuss what had happened.

It’s fun to read the three different articles in the Torygraph today. Very different perspective in the same paper. Oborns’s is bollocks though IMO, but fun to read!!!

The plot thickens…

Back room dealing.?

That sounds to me as though KP’s agent has done some very clever negotiating, KP’s stock value stay’s healthy and his book, apparently due to be published later this year will probably reveal all (well, his version of events), thereby ensuring healthy royalties. Possibly as a kind of golden handshake gesture?

aracer.

Swann was never fit for the tour and shouldn’t have gone. He probably hoped he could trade on reputation a bit out there. What actually happened is that the Aussies realised pretty quickly he wasn’t giving the ball as much of a rip and cashed in. It is worth noting that it is not just our seamers who struggle with the kookaburra ball. If it is anything like when I went on a tour to South Africa nearly 20 years ago, the difference is quite disconcerting.

We played with a Reader ball most often in England, but sometimes a Duke. The seam on the English balls is narrower, but much higher than a kookaburra. As a result, it is easier to grip (spin or seam) and ‘does more’ off the pitch.

The first thing that strikes you when you bowl with a brand new shiny kookaburra is how hard it seems. The second thing that strikes you is how quickly that wears off and you are left with something like a tightly screwed up chammy leather.

Anyhow, Swann should haven’t even got on the plane in the first place.

I’ve just read a summation of the interview James Whitaker gave to Sky Sports.

How on earth are we in this situation where dropping a player from a sports team has everyone pissing their pants whenever they are asked to even hint at an explanation? Why are teams of lawyers involved? Can we expect a dropped batsman to consult his lawyers if the management say he missed a succession of straight balls, so the lawyers can scrutinise hawkeye to prove that actually each one was actually an unplayable Jaffa?

I know central contracts are involved, so it is employment law rather than just dropping someone back to county cricket, but FFS.

Well the Wendy’s are using lawyers to address a red card. At least cricket hasn’t got that extreme 😉

Apparently there’s more to come today from the ECB. But they’re still not going to be able to say everything. This whole thing is pathetic now. There are loads of angles on this that are just ridiculous.

We are talking about dropping someone from a sports team. It’s not a military coup. It’s not watergate. I know why no one can say everything, because lawyers are involved. But why are lawyers involved in sport like this?

I would rather know the reasons behind all this than not know. However (on the flip side) I am not entitled to know.

All these so-called cricket fans going “I buy tickets for England matches, so I’ve got a right to know the reasons for this”. No. Buying a ticket for an England game does not entitle you to anything more than sitting in a given seat for a given period of time. No more, no less. Very much like the footie fans who rant and rave about having a right to know what is going on behind the scenes at ‘their’ club. Nope, sorry. You have a right not to buy any more tickets in the future. You have the right to withdraw your support. That’s it.

Anyway, I hope sense prevails and the ECB make a full statement. I have an inkling that if they did, a lot of the support for brand Pietersen might evaporate.

when a sports club forms part of the community of course the fans views are taken into account and are told to a certain extent what is going on.

Scamper. Yes fair enough, but it isn’t an obligation.

If they had any sense, they would spill the beans. It has to be said, being humiliated into a 5-0 drubbing by a mediocre team, then sacking (to many) your star player really isn’t a good way to get people interested in watching your sport. An explanation might at least give the paying supporter some understanding of what went on. Currently, they’re just doing a very good job of reducing the numbers of paying supporters.

It’s almost as brainless as selling the rights to Sky in 2005 just after the whole country experienced England wind a cricket match for the first time in about a century. Really, the ECB just need sacking, given their serial incompetence. As has been said, the writing was on the wall way back in NZ regarding England’s performance.

Latest ecb bollox: everyone but him has confidence in Cook and flower…

Well people, looks like we’re in for a long stint of negative passive cricket with mediocre expectations. Strap yourselves in for series after series without a change in field placement…

KP on Cook’s Case

The classic question when dealing with someone you might ‘need’ but cannot put up with. Is it better to have him in the tent pissing out or outside the tent pissing in? I still maintain that the problem with having him ‘in the tent’ is that he actually pisses all over the inside of it as well.

I’m not sure Cook’s captaincy was that much of a factor in the series loss. The Headingley test featured a ridiculous squandering of the last five wickets to Mathews’ crap medium pace. They then shelled simple chances and bowled a load of dross. Basic skills and concentration were the issue.

Not that different from the England football team, really. How can Hodgson be expected to show any tactical nous when his supposedly best player (Rooney) can’t control the ball after receiving a simple pass?

The disappointing thing in both cases is that highly rated and highly paid sportsmen don’t seem to be able to do the basics.

Th captain has to take some responsibility for that. His own lack of form is playing on his mind in terms of bating and captaincy

KP has an axe to grind – as does shane ” WTF do you look like these days mate” Warne so I have no interest in discussing or reading their views.

Great players but I dont respect either.

Cook’s captaincy is an issue but, as you rightly say, I think his form with the bat is a bigger problem. Add in the effect of that on his captaincy and there is a problem. But my point is that the higher functions of captaincy (strategy and tactics) are all that an international captain should have to worry about, the players should have the basics dialled.

In the Headingley test, though, the lower order threw their wickets away when we should have batted them out of the game, we shelled catches left right and centre (they were expensive drops as well) and the bowlers just bowled the wrong length. I’m not sure an international captain should need to say things like “don’t chuck your wicket away”, “concentrate in the slips” and “please don’t bowl everything halfway down”.

Cook is not a good captain, but he is the only choice right now. His captaincy is largely rendered irrelevant if the players cock up the basics anyway.