Cool… am waiting with interest. The warranty side must be a huge challenge, given the reliability of them in general, but great that you’re trying to do something better.

The full fat one is paused while we contemplate the challenges of warranty and support. We’re also working on a lightweight one, hence the interest in what people are running.

Will be interesting to see how the EP801 is compared to the EP800, had a couple of mates who have been plagued with EP800 motors failing relatively quickly, ridden once a week, never jet washed and the motor just stops.

I do wonder how the EP800 faired in the Orbea Rise’s, being lower power, did they see the same issues.

Spesh seems to have it ticked as far as the support goes, yes their motors fail, but the turnaround from what I have seen an experienced is pretty good. I would buy another spesh eeb on the support alone.

Just to helpfully(?) comment that although the KSL has ‘only’ 35Nm, it’s not as far away as you might think to a full 85Nm in terms of how/when it gives its power. Nm numbers aren’t the whole story. I’d have a KSL before I’d have a 50Nm TQ ebike, for example.

I do wonder how the EP800 faired in the Orbea Rise’s, being lower power, did they see the same issues.

I have a mate whos on his 4th ep8 in his rise – its just packed up again, so soon to be 5th motor. No jetwashing, but ridden in all conditions all year round – has probably covered a total of 1200-1500 miles.

Just to helpfully(?) comment that although the KSL has ‘only’ 35Nm, it’s not as far away as you might think to a full 85Nm in terms of how/when it gives its power. Nm numbers aren’t the whole story. I’d have a KSL before I’d have a 50Nm TQ ebike, for example.

There was a test with a levo sl and a load of other bikes, think it was MBR and the results were surprising, see if I can find it.

ALso found this: https://www.mtbr.com/threads/trek-fuel-ex-e-vs-specialized-levo-sl-vs-santa-cruz-blur-xc-climb-speed-test-with-constant-rider-power.1214639/

No, but did buy a Levo which I sold after 6 rides and got a Kenevo SL. Super happy with the SL

– max power – a power output limit that the motor will not exceed (max 300w)

This show the joke that the the current ebike regs are. 35nm gives a power in excess of the alleged limit. A common FF ebike is 85nm and at 90rm that’s 800W

FWIW I was out yesterday with a pal on his new Canyon (the 900 battery) and my KSL.

He dialed his power down and we rode at a pace that suited me and although I was putting in more effort (backed up by comparing our HRM afterwards), if he hadn’t he wouldn’t have had the range that me & my bike have – even though he’s twice the battery capacity.

Did over 6000ft and nearly 40 miles with a good 80-90% offroad, lot’s of it soft and muddy and had plenty of battery range left.

On the full power side
Yesterdays ride was 5250 ft/1600 meters all offroad in two hours fifteen and I still had 50% battery left.

No turning any settings down but did stay in eco until half way up the last climb when I treated myself to a couple of minutes of trail mode.
My HR was fairly close to a similar ride on my leg powered bike that took around double the time.
I’ve not ridden with anyone on a SL that can get near that. Including a mate who has the new Forestal who’s a stronger rider than me.

Other peoples ranges are pointless as they’re not the same.😉

I’ve not ridden with anyone on a SL that can get near that. Including a mate who has the new Forestal who’s a stronger rider than me.

Agree. I couldn’t even get close to my 625wH Bosch climbing record, and was even further away from a 700wH Gen3 Levo that was turned down.

I tried to do some big days out on the KSL & had it turned right down (15% assistance) and the most I could get out of it was 1750m which wasn’t pleasant and that’s with a range extender, in fact I would say it was probably harder than a normal bike. I’m about 85kg and fit enough to do a 2000m vert day on a leg bike in less than 5 hours, so I don’t think fitness was the issue…

I can get 2700m out of a Bosch bike & 3K+ out of a Levo for comparison.

I tried to do some big days out on the KSL & had it turned right down (15% assistance) and the most I could get out of it was 1750m which wasn’t pleasant and that’s with a range extender, in fact I would say it was probably harder than a normal bike. I’m about 85kg and fit enough to do a 2000m vert day on a leg bike in less than 5 hours, so I don’t think fitness was the issue…

You must be doing something different (wrong?) to me then, cadence too low maybe, especially if you can do over 1000ft per hour on an analogue bike. Yesterday I used everything from 10% to 100% and all settings in-between with 40-50% for most of the climbing. And 80kg plus new Michelin Wild Enduro’s.

Not doing anything any different on this bike than any others. Comfortable climbing pace on the naturally aspirated bike is ~400m an hour & I can push at 500m if I’m less fussed about being fresh for the downhills. Tyre choice will play a small part as I ran DH22/34’s on it, but still running them on the Rail anyway.

I would say my experience is I get more range out of a KSL from everyone else I know who rides them, or has ridden them locally.

Ultimately, the above is basically why it didn’t really work for me.

I’ve found that riding with the full fat eeebs, the climbing speed is what knackers the lightweights range and battery. I’ll climb at a pace I can maintain all day and at the end of the day it makes very little difference, as it’s just less time spent at the bottom of the hill and a a bit more time on the pedalling.

Fresh motor and battery in mine, so range and power is back where it should be!

Levo SL owner on eco 85% of the time its ideal, despite what the reviews say I find it handles
Well on off piste / steep runs. There is a new SL coming out soon so could be worth hanging on for a little while.

The full fat one is paused while we contemplate the challenges of warranty and support. We’re also working on a lightweight one, hence the interest in what people are running.

I saw one of your Ethic protos out on the trails last week and had a chat with the rider (nice bloke btw) who said as much about the project being paused.  I’m not generally a fan of how e-bikes look, but to be honest it looked a lot better than most I’ve seen. Are you considering other motor brands too?

Rise owner here and AFAIR, I run mine with the following torque; Eco, around low to mid 20´s, Trail 34 or 38Nm, Boost 60Nm. For context, I’m just old enough to have a bus pass, relatively fit for my age, ride in the Tweed Valley all year round (Typical ride is sub 3 hours with less than 900m climbing). Also tend to spin at a cadence around 90-100rpm.

As far as Rise vs Kenevo SL goes, I’d agree with previous replies – the Rise is quite definitely a trail bike that can dabble in steeper ‘enduro race type’ terrain (mine has 150mm forks and a high rise bar, which helps a bit).

Last week I spent a few hours on a Kenevo SL and, power wise, I was pleasantly surprised by the level of support in Trail mode. It was in default settings, so I gather this enables access to full 35Nm in Trail. Boost was ok, but unsurprisingly not as strong as on the Rise (I also ride analog bikes, so never really feel the need for Boost, apart from when I’m feeling unwell, weather unexpectedly turns awful).

I think if you ride on your own a lot and are reasonably fit the SL’s are spot on. I really liked the Kenevo SL for its capabilities on steep and rough trails, but to me it felt like it needs terrain like that to come alive – on more moderate descents it felt a very dull and muted compared to the Rise, or even my previous Trek Rail. I think the KSL would be fantastic for the trails at The Golfie and Innerleithen TC, but as an ‘all round’ trail bike….hmmm, maybe not? Oh, and stick a range extender on it, and it’s creeping closer to the weight of some full power eebs.

Motors wise, the power delivery and drag of the SL motor felt very similar to the way I have my Rise set up. The SL was noisier on the climbs (like a whistling kettle sound), but quieter on the descents.

I’ve just had the EP8 motor on my Rise replaced after only 700km, which involved a few weeks wait. FWIW, the Bosch perfCX in my Trek had done 3500miles and was still going strong when I sold the bike, and that had been used in all weathers, and washed regularly.

I also demo’d a full fat Levo and, for me, it wasn’t what I was looking for. However, it’s geometry felt a great halfway house between the Rise and KSL and IMO, the power delivery was way better than the Bosch. Nice quite motor and the bike felt very agile and poppy for its weight.

Anyway, I’ll stop blethering now:)

HTH

Are you considering other motor brands too?

yes we’re also working on a lightweight option with a different motor. Thats all I can say right now other than I was surprised how heavy all these ‘SL’ bikes are when I checked. Is it that they run eBike parts still (Like rims etc.). For me the biggest advantage of dropping the weight/Nm is that you don’t trash your parts, meaning you can run ‘normal’ parts and keep the weight down.

Is it that they run eBike parts still (Like rims etc.)

I dont think most of the “SL” type ebike do use ebike parts, think they’re on normal bike parts mostly. What does your average modern trail or enduro bike weigh these days – 14kg to 16kg depending on tyres? so add 4kg of motor + battery and you’re at 18kg -20kg. The new transition “lightweight” bike is a bit on the heavy side though , think its more than 20kg.

My fuel exe is 19.2kg without pedals, but this is using an ebike specific fox 36 fork (300g heavier than standard fox 36) and ebike wheels (because its what I had spare), it’d be down to around 18.5kg with a normal fox 36 and a set of lighter wheels. Think this is similar to what a high end (ie s works) kenevo sl comes in at.

Think this is similar to what a high end (ie s works) kenevo sl comes in at.

Seems like you are paying a lot of money to get the genuinely ‘light’ bikes. 4KG all in for the battery/motor/mods to the frame etc. is what I would budget which does tally with the specialized weights – they certainly have that dialled on the high end stuff.

We have both the Levo SL and Turbo Levos. We don’t run E specific parts on any of them and can swap out parts both ways if needed with the Enduros and Stumpys.

Seems like you are paying a lot of money to get the genuinely ‘light’ bikes

yeah, prices are nuts *, the list price of the high end bike is way more than the retail cost of the parts + base model bike combined. Thats why I bought the bottom of the range fuel exe and upgraded it with parts I mostly already had, so end up with a highend build at minimal cost.

Think the fuel exe 9.5 list price is now £6400 (although I paid £5750) , weight is 19.9kg out of the box, and has really poor components on it (really low quality given the price) , by using bits I already had and buying a couple of things I ended up with a high end build for not high end prices.

* the exception is orbea with the rise, that does seem pretty good value and quite light too.

Thats all I can say right now other than I was surprised how heavy all these ‘SL’ bikes are when I checked. Is it that they run eBike parts still (Like rims etc.). For me the biggest advantage of dropping the weight/Nm is that you don’t trash your parts, meaning you can run ‘normal’ parts and keep the weight down.

Run the same parts on my G1 as I do on the KSL, I could get both bikes lighter with exo tyres and lighter wheels, but not by much and then there would be the misery of punctures and tyres that dont work.
G1 is 16kg/35.5lbs
KSL is 20kg/44lbs

I found with the full fats, they’d chew through drivetrains and rear wheels pretty quick. But you are doing double the amount of riding on a given day if you are using them properly, we’d frequently be well over 7000ft on two batteries!!

Yes, the Rise comes with normal suspension and wheels rather than eeb specific. I have factory suspension and low-mid spec components on my Rise, with EXO+ tyres, and it’s just under 19kg. My wife’s Rise is noticeably lighter than mine (same size frame) as she prefers less technical trails (her Rise has Fox 34 forks, Hunt trail wide wheels and Schwalbe ´trail’ tyres, there are some light components on there, but drivetrain is predominantly Deore with a lighter cassette – weight wise it’s just under 18kg with pedals).

The KSL I demo’d was boggo ‘comp’ model. It’d got a Rhythm 36 fork and I don’t think it was the eeb version, but gather the Rhythm version has thicker upper stanchions than Factory’s, so guess it may be stiffer but heavier(?). The wheels were not eeb specific, but my guess is there was a lot of weight in them – looked like plain gauge spokes & chunky hubs.

Forgot to mention earlier, while my Rise was in the shop for a new motor, the guys there leant me a top of range new Pivot Shuttle LT full fat – now that was a very fine handling bike for its weight, very ‘hop & pop’. I guess the LT was around the 22kg mark, as it was built up for enduro-ing and had got a 38 on the front. I didn’t notice the weight until loading into my van! The new Shimano EP801 on the bike was noticeably quieter and less rattley than my EP8. It’d be interesting to try the SL version of the Pivot, as I think it uses a different motor(?).

The SL Pivot has a Fazua 60, which might be what Ethic/Bird would be using on their SL.

I’ve managed to find one (KSL) to demo so I’ll be popping over to Ludlow tomorrow for a razz around on one for a couple of hours.

I’ve been all over the place this week, from deciding on a KSL to a Levo and back again, I’ve also thought about forgetting the whole thing and just sticking with my Stumpy Evo. The more I look at that bike the more I think I’m being silly about getting an e-mtb, it’s close to perfect with all the nice bits I’ve put on it (Fox 38s, AXS, etc). Trading it in for an e-bike, albeit a very nice one, will be a tough pill to swallow.

In any case we’ll know for sure tomorrow what the verdict is on the KSL and whether it’s a goer!

Be interested to hear how you get on with the KSL, as I’ve also got a ‘22 Stumpy Evo (that I think is a superb all rounder). I guess you’re already aware that there’s an SL version of the ‘Stevo’ in the pipeline(?). Allegedly, Spesh delayed its release because of the arrival of the Fuel EXe.

just sticking with my Stumpy Evo. The more I look at that bike the more I think I’m being silly about getting an e-mtb, it’s close to perfect with all the nice bits I’ve put on it (Fox 38s, AXS, etc).

I’ve got Fox36s and full AXS on my carbon Levo SL. A Stumpy with a light motor….

Out of interest, has any one raced their SL e-bikes against regular ones? How did you get on? Asking a a bellend chap I know has entered his KSL and thinks that as most e-bikers a fat old biffers (his words) he, a 41yo streak of piss, will clean up. My heart would sing if he got his arse handed to him. It’s the hamsterley trail bike TT next weekend, so there is a 150m flat/slight uphill sprint in the middle, which could have an effect. He already claims it takes more effort to ride than a regular bike on account of the weight. It’s maybe a kilo heavier than the (not e)bike I’ll be racing.

Out of interest, has any one raced their SL e-bikes against regular ones? How did you get on?

Not formally raced, but assuming the course is a loop with significant hills and not predominantly downhill, your mate won’t stand a chance. A full fat ebike puts out 600+watts on top of whatever the rider can muster, a kenevo SL puts out 240w on top of whatever the rider can muster, so your mate will have a 360w
deficit to make up with his legs.

If it’s just a downhill race (or predominantly downhill) then he might be ok.

Edit just looked up the hamsterly TT, seems to be a mostly DH event, he’ll probably be fine.

It’s technically a DH race. Only the ‘down’ is timed, but is a trail centre red, with an uphill ish bit in the middle.

Depends how steep the uphill bit is, if your average ebiker can hit 16mph up it using less than 240w of motor power then your mate will be at no disadvantage on his ksl ,but if it’s steep enough that an ebike can’t hit the speed limiter even with 600w plus the riders legs then your mate is going to be at a disadvantage.

Nah it’s fairly flat. My thought would be the lack of torque vs the big bikes out of the corners?

So, I return from an afternoon spent ripping around Hopton woods on a rather fetching Peach coloured Kenevo SL comp.

Overall I think it’s an incredible machine and it was a blast to ride, I’ve never ridden an e-mtb other than a quick whip around a car park so it was all very much new to me but I did really enjoy the experience.

I rode it mostly in trail with a stint of turbo for the last 20 minutes or so. I found Eco to be pointless in my scenario, for someone of my size I might as well have switched the motor off, lighter riders might feel some benefit but for me trail was a perfect balance of physical work + motor assist.

It’s definitely not a monster on some of the steeper climbs and at times you really need to put some effort in. However what it lacks in climbing grunt I found it made up for on the downhills, point it down through any Rooty or rocky sections and it felt just like my Stumpy, albeit with a bit more squish. I could pop it, unweight the back, move it around easily and generally treat it like a regular bike. I really liked this element.

Two things bothered me, the motor isn’t quiet and it could be an annoyance. I’m someone who really likes to listen to the natural sounds in the woods & my tyres on the ground. I found the constant whine of the motor to be a little at-odds with it’s surroundings. But I also understand you can’t have everything.

The other thing is the motor lag / limiter at around 15mph (there’s probably a better name for this). On a relatively flat section of fire road I was whizzing along smiling from ear to ear and it suddenly felt like I’d put the brakes on. I know this isn’t exclusive to this bike but it did feel really jarring and it was enough to make me question giving up my pedal bike for a moment…. until I turned back up into the woods in turbo and it all made sense again.

On the whole I think the KSL is a bit of a masterpiece and after my test ride I’m convinced that it’s the natural progression for a someone like me on a stumpy evo looking for a medium assisted e-mtb. The motor whine and 15mph motor lag limiter thing are bothersome but I think the pros far outweigh the cons.

For anyone interested I’m 95kg, I did 13km with 500m of climbing – 75% Trail /. 25% Turbo – and I finished my ride with 70% battery remaining.

The motor whine and 15mph motor lag limiter thing are bothersome but I think the pros far outweigh the cons.

The motor that the ksl and levo sl use is a noisy bugger and one reason I went for the trek fuel exe instead ( it’s virtually silent), but the 15mph cut out is a legal thing and applies to all ebikes,so they’re all the same in that regard

This thread is very dangerous for my wallet and my marriage…

Spesh Enduro owner, little bit more time constrained then I once was so not as bike fit as I’d want. Always been ebike curious, but rode a friends poorly maintained one couple of years back and it felt horrible, the weight of the bike felt really high up and the bike was quite ratty in general. Always liked the look of the KSL since launch, however few months ago got to swing a leg over a levo SL and Whyte E160 when on a group ride. The Levo SL didnt feel good going up as the owner had customised the power outputs down so he could ride with his buddies and was so so going down. The Whyte shocked me with the pace at which it shot up the climb and just how good it actually descended. This thread and that ride on the Whyte have me more curious to swing a leg over a KSL but thankfully cant demo one at the moment!

I will keep reading this thread with interest…

the 15mph cut out is a legal thing and applies to all ebikes,so they’re all the same in that regard

Not all bikes feel the same though when when pedalling through it.

I’d suggest gavinnn needs to demo/hire now a full-fat and one of the mid-fat bikes – I found the full-fat very difficult to pedal through, whereas the Rise and KSL were far easier.

Have you demo’d a full fat eeb OP?

Must admit I’m ebike curious. The Whyte, as above, was great to have a go on. Just trying to work out if the middle weight ones have any point. They don’t go as far and the whyte felt on part with a normal bike on the descents.

I’d probably keep the normal bike for days out with mates, but for solo riding I’d just use the ebike in boost i reckon.

Not all bikes feel the same though when when pedalling through it.

This is indeed true. Been riding a motor recently where the only indication you went over 15mph was the small change in noise. It tapers the power in and out at 15mph really well so its very hard to tell.

Two things bothered me, the motor isn’t quiet and it could be an annoyance. I’m someone who really likes to listen to the natural sounds in the woods & my tyres on the ground. I found the constant whine of the motor to be a little at-odds with it’s surroundings. But I also understand you can’t have everything.

The only e-bike I’ve ridden is an older Levo with the Brose motor, which has a reputation for being one of the quietest options out there. In Eco mode, it’s barely noticeable, to the point where most people don’t realise that it’s an e-bike. Less so in Trail or Turbo, when I find it quite obtrusive and it’s also audible to other people on the trail, which feels like an imposition and slightly rdue. I guess it’s quite a personal thing and neuroplasticity might mean your brain can eventually filter it out like a fridge noise or similar, but I don’t like it. Oddly it’s not mentioned often when people talk about ebikes, so I guess most riders simply don’t care.