Worth remembering that much of the Land on which Israel was built was bought fair and square from the Palestinians

Worth remembering that a whole lot more of it wasn’t.

right up until the point it became a US puppet right wing state.

The US isn’t particularly a huge fan of the current Israel state. In the past the US has spied on Israel as they don’t trust them and also gone to big measures to stop them getting involved with Iran and the like. When Obama wanted to bring Iran back in from the cold, he did it without support from Israel. John Kerry said when he went to tell Netanyahu up front what was planned, Netanyahu briefed the press first against the US policy, then screamed at Kerry for 30 minutes, in what Kerry described as the most unpleasant meeting he’d ever been in.

Probably the only road map to peace would be to lock the Israelis and relevant surrounding Arab countries in a room, along with the 5 UN security council members and hammer out a deal. But due to various self interests that ain’t going to happen.

Worth remembering that much of the Land on which Israel was built was bought fair and square from the Palestinians

😆

Worth remembering that a whole lot more of it wasn’t.

No, it was ceded in battle after unsuccessful attempts at wholeescale ethnic cleansing of the Jews by the surrounding arab states.

edit:

@ Junky – go on then…. or are we witnessing another Junkyardtastic history fail?

“Probably the only road map to peace would be to lock the Israelis and relevant surrounding Arab countries in a room, along with the 5 UN security council members and hammer out a deal. But due to various self interests that ain’t going to happen.”

Or for both sides to stop any kind of violent act immediately and permanently and sort out the details of a deal afterwards at their leisure. That ain’t gonna happen either.

Unfortunately what you say is true. It needs brave people on both sides to sue for peace. Neither side has the appetite for this

are we witnessing another Junkyardtastic history fail?

No we are witnessing a silly scribble by you attached to a childish ad hom in order to play defend the indefensible which is your personal MO
Nice goad though. You even moved the goalposts in that response
😀

“In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice.

I am not engaging further as not even you really believe that to be a true reflection of what happened and if you do its because you are wrong

Save your google fu

The US isn’t particularly a huge fan of the current Israel state

Still gives them about $3Bn a year in military aid though
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.611001
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/usaid.html
“In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

Every few years Israel uses it’s weapons (such as its US built planes, “the purchase of 20 F-35 fighter planes for $2.7 billion – will be financed entirely by aid money”) to flatten Gaza. The world, via the UN which of course includes the US, then promises, and breaks its promises to rebuild Gaza.

“original injustice.”

As with Ireland, which injustice is the “original” one is totally subjective. That’s just one more reason why you need to ignore the issue of blame altogether or you get nowhere. South Africa got it right IMHO.

which injustice is the “original” one is totally subjective. That’s just one more reason why you need to ignore the issue of blame altogether or you get nowhere. South Africa got it right IMHO.

There’s some truth in that. AAMOI what do you think it would take for the Israelis to agree to that approach? They have rejected every overture as inadequate.

As with Ireland, which injustice is the “original” one is totally subjective

No the facts are pretty clear.

One lot were people who lived somewhere and the other lot were people who took the land and partitioned the country using military force and use this military force to maintain the divided state. Its really not hard at all. See Iran v kuwait if you want to ponder on whether such things are good or bad of “hard to tell”.

Its very clear cut who was the original violator and who were the victims

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs… As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in “A Land of Two Peoples” ed. Mendes-Flohr.

Its true that to focus on this in isolation wont bring about peace and we need to move past it and deal with reality now as they have in NI as this sort of shit does no one any favours. Innocent people on all sides die in a conflict whose only resolution is for people to agree to live side by side in peace and harmony. Its hard to see any actions, on either side, that makes this outcome even remotely likely.

israel has been very effective in making “peace on the ground” to the extent that going back to original borders, which they wont do, would feel like them “giving something up”. they are still expansionist now. Of course they say its for “peace” just like we split Ireland for “peace”.

“AAMOI what do you think it would take for the Israelis to agree to that approach?”

Presumably Israel will stop fighting when the Arabs stop fighting and the Arabs will stop fighting when the Israelis have been ‘driven into the sea’.

I could be wrong about that, but if I’m right it would explain why its been impossible to end the cycle of violence.

Doubtlessly the lack of acceptance of a two state solution by many arabs/palestinians is a major bar to any peace deal

Treating them this way is unlikely to lead to a change of heart.
Israel strategy is to contain and continue to steal land.
We then support them from “terrorist” who dont like this.

The US gives military support to Israel to enable it to defend itself against the likes of Iran who have stated they want to wipe it off the map. And lets not forget Israels neighbours are hardly friends as past history shows.

It should also be remembered that the US also gives significant money and military assistance to the likes of Turkey, Kuwait and Saudi

One lot were people who lived somewhere and the other lot were people who took the land and partitioned the country using military force

Utter codswallop – go and read the Peel Commission report, Arab violence against jewish settlers long predated any of this.

Non sequitur
Unless you wish to argue Israel came into being peacefully and without the use of force that resulted in a partition country then the point stands
You are way of your game today

Nothing to see here, ladies and gentlemen and I’m sure that he can’t be racist because:
One of his friends is black
He is a Labour councillor
His dog ate his homework
It is all a slur against the labour party.

What the story there as that is a picture from twitter of someone from 2015 that seems to have grabbed your attention.

What is the context/story – I dont do twitter.

http://order-order.com/2016/05/02/labour-councillor-israel-behind-isis-zionist-jews-are-a-disgrace-to-humanity/

Edit, it is the story after:

http://order-order.com/2016/05/02/labour-suspends-relocate-jews-councillor/

Ta
His views are bonkers

Did you comment on Kimbers list of similar incidents involving Tories?

Still not proof its endemic and I genuinely dont think either labour or tory has anything other than handful of nutters amongst there many hundred of thousands of members/supporters

Its correct to weed them out wherever we find them
its not correct to pretend racism is left only issue.

The comments section from that site are quite telling. Easy to see the types of people it’s there for.

Quite hilarious. We have lefties saying the BBC is a blairite infested termite mound over-reporting endemic anti-semitism and on the likes of Guido, which seems set up for right-wing nut-jobs, saying that the BBC is a big left-wing conspiracy not reporting endemic anti-semitism at all.

Meanwhile, nothing of real importance to the country is discussed in earnest.

The US gives military support to Israel to enable it to defend itself against the likes of Iran who have stated they want to wipe it off the map. And lets not forget Israels neighbours are hardly friends as past history shows.

It should also be remembered that Iran would be very different today if not for repeated interference by Western interests to control their oil, including the 1953 coup set up by MI6 and the CIA, involving some of the very same players who hold responsibility for bringing the Nazis to power, which also played a big part in the creation of Israel

The coup was carried out by the U.S. administration of Dwight D. Eisenhower in a covert action advocated by Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, and implemented under the supervision of his brother Allen Dulles, the Director of Central Intelligence.[76] The coup was organized by the United States’ CIA and the United Kingdom’s MI6, two spy agencies that aided royalists and royalist elements of the Iranian army.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjlNR09PY58[/video]

Its correct to weed them out wherever we find them
its not correct to pretend racism is left only issue.

1. I agree of course.
2. There’s a fair bit in the last 12 pages of people trying to pretend that there isn’t a problem on the left at all, when of course, both political extremes have issues and are driven more by anger and hate than they should be.

I think folk are deny their is a problem- its been called endemic by the more vocal RW on here- because there is no endemic problem in either party

there are isolated cases of nobbers in each party, that show that racists are both everywhere and a very small minority.
Its not a left issue and its obvious, in general, that racism is much more a right wing issue than a left wing issue.

Ots about the upcoming mayoral and local elections rather than deep seated fear or evidence of widespread anti semitism in the labour party

hence we get a few year old tweets from a lowly councillor in Blackburn.

Lets not overstate the issue for political gain.

You shouldn’t need to be on any side of a political ideology to know what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians is plain wrong.

Use whatever fancy words you like, but the simple one is “wrong”.

It should also be remembered that the US also gives significant money and military assistance to the likes of Turkey, Kuwait and Saudi

Significant? Per http://us-foreign-aid.insidegov.com/ (last figures they seem to have are 2012 unfortunately. Military assistance shown only –

Israel $3,100,059,524
Saudi $9.000
Turkey $4,447,100
Kuwait $227,000

“You shouldn’t need to be on any side of a political ideology to know what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians is plain wrong.”

Two sets of wrong happen.

You only mention one set of wrong things.

You understand why people (probably incorrectly) think that the reason you omit the other wrong set is race?

outofbreath – Member
…You understand why people (probably incorrectly) think that the reason you omit the other wrong set is race?

Well seeing as most Israelis are of recent European origin, no.

And if not, in that case are not both groups Semitic?

What I see is a group of people who have invaded another’s country bleating that they are being hard done by when anyone voices a complaint against their aggression.

It’s beyond race/religion. On one hand you have a powerful western backed and wealthy invader, on the other an oppressed and poor original population.

If you want an example of anti-Jewishness, then maybe take a look at the keenness of the European governments to dump their Jewish populations in someone else’s country instead of protecting them at home.

You only mention one set of wrong things

The sound of RW criticising Israel actions on here is positively deafening as has been your criticism of them for this.

You understand why people (probably incorrectly) think that the reason you omit the other wrong set is race?

Yes they cannot defend what Israel does so they cheaply insinuate you are racist.

I’m quite happy to condemn Israels actions, but equally the Arab surrounding nations have and continue to behave appallingly. The place is a flipping mess, with too much tit for tat and not enough talking.

simons_nicolai-uk your link shows that the US give plenty of cash to surrounding Arab states also. Plus it fails to note assistance in kind, such as intelligence sharing with the Saudi’s.

Personally I believe the West would ideally have a Middle East where everyone got along, provided that Russian and Chinese interests were not excessive.

as long as we get the oil we would tolerate anything

There is precious little morality in our foreign policy

I think most reasonable folk accept both sides do bad things

i think where we fall apart i that some think that any people would behave as the palestinians do if the same was done to them and some think israel is the victim of terrorism and Arab neighbours who despise her

There is some truth to both sides but the israeli treatment of the palestinians can never ever lead to peace.

Dragon – come back with some specifics. You said they gave “significant” military aid to 3 specific countries. The amounts for two of them are completely insignificant. The third is only smaller by a factor of 12.

“Personally I believe the West would ideally have a Middle East where everyone got along”

I think so too.

…but it’s hard to tell that from our actions in recent years.

There is some truth to both sides but the israeli treatment of the palestinians can never ever lead to peace.

and

There is some truth to both sides but the Palastinian treatment of the Israelis can never ever lead to peace.

That is the sad truth of it – the extremists on both sides are as bad as each other and keep chosing violence over peace, just as both sides did in Northern Ireland for far too long. It takes an aweful lot of squinting to look at one side and see it as an innocent victim of the other.

“Yes they cannot defend what Israel does so they cheaply insinuate you are racist.”

It would be very easy to counter that false claim if all criticism was of both sides, instead of just one.

“It takes an aweful lot of squinting to look at one side and see it as an innocent victim of the other”

Nicely put.

but the Palastinian treatment of the Israelis can never ever lead to peace

Cool put up your address and I will be around to kick you out, take your possessions, make say 25 % of the occupants leave and never return and then remind you afterwards[ whilst i am treating you brutally and punishing your entire family, restricting your access to food, water, electricity, healthcare and education] if one of you responds it will be your fault we cannot live in peace
I am sure you will find it a persuasive argument.

It takes an aweful lot of squinting to look at one side and see it as an innocent victim of the other.

It takes a lot of squinting to not know who is most to blame or to think either side is blameless.

It would be very easy to counter that false claim

Feel free to use the thread as example

Anyway its the end game now where all the zionist now try to argue that its the “pro palestinian” who are all one sided.
Your criticism of israel is indeed pretty damn harsh. careful now someone will be calling you a racist if you keep this up start 🙄

Unfortunately its not about “choosing peace” it about choosing not to be oppressed and all nations would respond as the palestinians do if they were treated how the israelis treat them as would you if i took your house.
That they do this and breach international law is why they get more of the “blame”
No one is blameless.

you said they gave “significant” military aid to 3 specific countries.

For example currently the US assistance to Saudi includes targeting assistance and mid-air refueling of fighter jets, along with weapons sales. I’m not getting onto a who gets what in $, it was merely to point out that although Israel do get a lot of military assistance from the US, so do many of their surrounding Arab neighbours, and the US and Israel aren’t in bed with each other as much as many claim.

Lots of interesting stuff but still little evidence of KL being anything other than (a bit of) a prat. This is still a Labour Party issue – it’s their mayoral candidate who is being vociferous, they are the party who have suspended a party grandee and supporter of its leader – and apart from making a pigs ear of managing this, they have said nothing that justifies the accusation made. Pretty lame defence against lazy (internal) slurs. Bloody mess.

For once they might be glad for a little princess stealing the front pages

“Unfortunately its not about “choosing peace” it about choosing not to be oppressed and all nations would respond as the palestinians do if they were treated how the israelis treat them as would you if i took your house.”

You sound quite enthusiastic about both sides fighting on like all nations would.

I think you’ll have your wish though. This is never going to stop.

You sound quite enthusiastic about both sides fighting on like all nations would.

Oh a new way of playing the man and not addressing the point….well done you.
🙄

I suppose it was either that or admit the obvious undeniable truth of what I said.
Still dont let the lack of an argument dent your fervour.