http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/28/labour-has-serious-problem-with-antisemitism-peers-claim-politics-live

More of the if you criticise Israel then you hate Jews

the real problem here is you cannot criticise Israel without being called a Jew hater.

In essence its easier to shout racist than defend what Israel does hence why we have to do this

Her post showing Israel in the USA was anti Israel at worst. its said nothing about jews
I have not massively followed the issue as I am tired of the slur of racism being used to stifle reasonable criticism – her point was not that reasonable but it is some way form the worst insult you will find on the internet or FB

TBh I think I could draw a picture of israel falling into the sea and not be a Jew hater

I would also like China overthrown and North Korea but I am not a racist I just hate what they do and what they stand for their race is irrelevant.

Ken will be like throwing petrol on a fire

Ken will be like throwing petrol on a fire

Quite, Ken said: “Hitler was supporting Zionism before he went mad”

Ken has form on this, so whoever is the media controller at the top of Labour needs to get a grip and send someone to do the interview who isn’t tainted and likely to say something idiotic.

the real problem here is you cannot criticise Israel without being called a Jew hater.

Yes you can. People do all the time rightly criticize Israeli policies, what one should avoid is using phrases that are obviously inflammatory such as “transportation” and “Finally solve the problem” which was the language used in the FB post that Naz Shah shared.

she was foolish.

Yes you can.

I am not 100% sure that is the case.

+1

Her post showing Israel in the USA was anti Israel at worst. its said nothing about jews
I have not massively followed the issue as I am tired of the slur of racism being used to stifle reasonable criticism – her point was not that reasonable but it is some way form the worst insult you will find on the internet or FB

Good to see casual racism alive and well.

Nickc +1 more. Stupid terms to use in connection with any Jewish/Israeli related issue.

Iirc, this isn’t the only anti-Semitic incident within the party.

the real problem here is you cannot criticise Israel without being called a Jew hater.

Yep, that’s how I read it.

Nickc +1

And then Ken brought Hitler up 😯

The row now seems to be about whether Hitlers early work was ‘a good thing’ or not.

Ken went Full Godwin too soon, imo.

Labour have got a virtual open goal with the Tories divided and what do they choose to do? Ignore the ball and start a fight amongst themselves. Genius.

she was foolish.

Absolutely, but one person being an idiot is not the same as “Labour has a serious problem with anti-Semitism”. Whole thing does seem to be blown out of proportion.

He can’t help himself;

Advocating the forced deportation of everyone in Israel is not anti-Semitic, merely “rude”, says Ken Livingstone

nickc – Member

Yes you can. People do all the time rightly criticize Israeli policies, what one should avoid is using phrases that are obviously inflammatory such as “transportation” and “Finally solve the problem” which was the language used in the FB post that Naz Shah shared.

she was foolish.

Totally agree with this. But… still not convinced this amounts to evidence of antisemitism, it could equally be explained by regular arseholeism. OTOH the “final solution” line doesn’t read naturally, it feels very intentional. That goes way beyond tactless or ignorant, it’s intentionally offensive. Antisemitic? Still not convinced. But it doesn’t have to be antisemitic, to be totally out of order.

Ken is, and will always be, a pure fanny.

Naz Shah will be a great loss to politics.

Other apologies for various pre-elctoral comments and deeds have been accepted and sometimes never given, Blair had a conviction to his name. I can’t help but see the attacks on her as being racially motivated.

Good to see casual racism alive and well.

See if you criticise Israel then some person comes along as says you are a racist as they know its a deeply personal insult that will enrage the poster and it saves them the trouble of having to defend Israel

Thanks for proving my case so succinctly

Oh am I racist for disliking China and North Korea or is it just dislike of Israel that makes me a racist – I mean what other reason could I have except for anti Semitism

Its just done to stifle debate as who wants to listen to the views of a racist

the real problem here is you cannot criticise Israel without being called a Jew hater.

Of course you can and many Jewish people manage it ever day.

Word for word what he just said.

“A real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel,”

and

the Holocaust was bad because it also affected “Communists like me”.

Can someone take his shovel away now, the hole’s big enough.

Of course you can and many Jewish people manage it ever day.

Aye only Jews can do this
Good to see causal racism is alive and well

“Quite, Ken said: “Hitler was supporting Zionism before he went mad””

Well, I think Ken Livingstone is referring to things like the Haavara Agreement:

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=haavara%20agreement

Plenty of reading there.

There does seem to be a concerted effort by certain groups, to effectively outlaw criticism of Israeli government policy and Zionism, as ‘anti-Semitism’. The fact is, that there are a lot of people who are critical of Israel, who are anti-Semitic. But there are also many who aren’t, and in fact many are Jewish themselves. Many who are opposed to such attempts at preventing freedom of speech, and actions such as the government’s plan to force local authorities to not actively boycott Israeli services and goods (BDS).

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8f963eb2-d405-11e5-829b-8564e7528e54.html#axzz477P5LqqH

Far too often in such debates, we see groups such as the Board of Deputies of British Jews claiming to speak for all British Jews, which is false and misleading. Too often, such groups are asked for comment on matters such as this situation with Naz Shah, when they possibly aren’t really an appropriate body to offer such comment. The BoD is a very right-wing organisation, which fully supports and endorses the actions and policies of the Israeli government, but chooses to ignore the atrocities caused by those actions and policies. There is no one ‘Jewish voice’ in the UK, or anywhere else. Media organisations simply love to sensationalise events, and such organisations as the BoD are perfect if you want a bit of a hot debate. They’ll also choose particularly militant Hamas supporting groups as the counter, rather than seeking better informed and more rational commentators and thinkers.

Naz Shah is ill-educated and ignorant. Her naivete has been exposed harshly here, although I am struggling to see any genuine anti-Semitism on her part, just gullible thoughtlessness. There are some in her constituency and within the greater Labour party, who are deeply anti-Semitic however, and Labour simply must deal with this issue and expel those who are guilty. Full stop.

“Ken has form on this”

Ken Livingstone is an outspoken critic of Israel, and a supporter of the Palestinian people. There are times when he could perhaps choose his words more carefully, but he knows full well how to generate pubic interest, so will often use seemingly inflammatory language. He is not anti-Semitic in any way, however, despite any claims from the right.

We must consider that many proponents of Zionism are in fact extreme right-wing often religious fundamentalists, who are as hateful towards Arabs/Gentiles as many anti-Semites are towards Jews, or White Supremacists are towards Black people etc. Such people are being protected and even facilitated by the Israeli government (the Likud part contains many anti-Arab xenophobes), and beyond, by Western interests. TheUK is a supplier of weapons to the Israeli state. We, as UK citizens, are unwittingly complicit in the murder of innocent people on both sides of that conflict. Hence the need to challenge Israel.

I fear that the leaping on of Naz Shah’s stupidity by pro-Israel groups and individuals, is yet another smokescreen to detract form the reality of what is happening in Israel and Palestine. Which is why Labour and anti-Israel organisations must ensure that they are completely blameless and without any cause for criticism. Which, as we are seeing, is almost impossible. And so it rumbles on. And people continue to die.

OTOH the “final solution” line doesn’t read naturally, it feels very intentional. That goes way beyond tactless or ignorant, it’s intentionally offensive. Antisemitic? Still not convinced. But it doesn’t have to be antisemitic, to be totally out of order.

yes Northwind, I think you’re spot on, I don’t think that phrase in that article was put there by accident, I tend towards the belief that it was placed carefully and would be ignored by most, but immediately picked up by the the people for whom it was intended (Jewish people), as you rightly point out, racism and arsehole-ism tend to go hand in hand

Good to see Israel is still using the anti-Semite / Racist card every time they want to discredit someone whose critical of their treatment of Palestinians….

See if you criticise Israel then some person comes along as says you are a racist as they know its a deeply personal insult that will enrage the poster and it saves them the trouble of having to defend Israel

Read what she supported – for someone who routinely calls anyone who questions immigration levels a bigot it is pretty bloody rich for you to call foul in a pretty clear cut case. Her draft apology was very good and hits the nail on the head, unfortunately it was toned down.

@ nickc

There will never ever be a thread where Israel is discussed and folk are not accused of racism/anti Semitism

I can say lets overthrow North korea and china as they are pariah nations.

No one will ever accuse me of racism for that. Replace those countries with Israel …what do you think happens now?

Its just to stifle debate and make us discuss racism

I don’t think most people disagree with you JY – questioning Israel’s behaviour is not anti-Jewish.

The issue is that Ken (who has form) has chosen to defend something that contains so many anti-Jewish elements in a way that includes saying ‘That Mr Hitler really had a good heart but went a bit bonkers towards the end’. What did he expect the outcome to be?

What did anyone think his involvement would bring but Labour Party disarray and the Tories sitting back ont here NHS, BREXIT, Academy and Taxation issues and laughing their socks off.

Labour have an open goal on so many policy areas at the moment and yet, as always, take their eye off the ball. It’s a farce.

@ mefty Defend your claim I am casual racist
You seem to think I am not on every other issue but this one. Indeed that is a bit rich but its not my principles that have moved due to the specific race in question.

I am not going to stop criticising Israel just because folk lazily shout racist.

Yes Junky, lazy (mostly) right wing Israeli politicians and apologists do it all the time, agreed. But…There is still genuine outspoken criticism of Israeli foreign policy that can be found.

However, that shouldn’t excuse one from going out of ones way to insult, and anyone with half an intellect would see how those words used about a Jewish state would be seen as inflammatory.

Great post clodhopper, thanks

Of course you can and many Jewish people manage it ever day.

And are promptly labelled “self hating”.

More of the if you criticise Israel then you hate Jews

the real problem here is you cannot criticise Israel without being called a Jew hater.

The problem is that many who claim to be anti-zionist are exactly the same as those cockends who say “I have nothing against the blacks, its just that they should go back where they came from” – hiding behind semantics.

It doesn’t work – people see through it.

BTW when did she make these FB posts?
Who has raised the issue?
Why has the media jumped on it?

You seem to think I am not on every other issue

I don’t think that at all, I think you are a partisan idiot who can’t see an obvious problem when so many others, including Naz Shah, can.

a detailed rebuttal of the “labour is the home of anti-Semites” accusation.

https://opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner/jeremy-corbyn-hasn-t-got-antisemitism-problem-his-opponents-do

looking forward to part II.

Well at least I have been elevated from casual racist to “partisan idiot” now – such a strong defence of Israel by personally attacking me . Thanks for your kind words – they are ok though as I am not a jew so you just hate me rather than my race 🙄

Little to be gained from trading increasingly personal insults so I politely refuse your kind offer.

anyone with half an intellect would see how those words used about a Jewish state would be seen as inflammatory

Hold on a minute. Some people are not as aware of how other people will interpret their words as others. It’s very easy to have a thought, and choose words to articulate it in a way that seems clear to yourself, but others don’t follow the same link and draw a different conclusion.

Happens to me all the time.

so you just hate me rather than my race

personal detestation is so much better – it feels like some real thought’s gone into it 😉

“The issue is that Ken (who has form) has chosen to defend something that contains so many anti-Jewish elements in a way that includes saying ‘That Mr Hitler really had a good heart but went a bit bonkers towards the end’. What did he expect the outcome to be?”

You’re being disingenuous here, to reinforce yourself. Livingstone was referring to the Haavara Agreement, which Hitler’s government supported. That’s actually a historical fact. I agree that his choice of words was poor, but he has never ‘defended’ Hitler as you and others seem to suggest. And if you really want to be pedantic; Naz Shah hasn’t actually said anything herself that is genuinely anti-Semitic. She did share material that is offensive, I agree. She’s been an utter idiot. But both her and Livingstone are vehemently opposed to the Israeli regime, which is causing the deaths of countless innocent people and facilitating racially-motivated murder. I’d much rather people got outraged about that.

“The problem is that many who claim to be anti-zionist are exactly the same as those cockends who say “I have nothing against the blacks, its just that they should go back where they came from” – hiding behind semantics.”

Some, maybe, Not ‘many’. The vast majority of ‘anti-Zionists’ are opposed to a racist supremacist ideology*, not a race or religion. To suggest otherwise is to deliberately obfuscate matters.

*I appreciate that Zionism is not one uniform single thing, but a very complex and multi-layered concept and ideology. I refer here to ‘Zionism’ being used as an excuse for oppression, displacement and murder of innocent people.

Is there a full transcript of the interview knocking about? There seems to be a lot of outrage among certain Labour MPs, but aside from some clumsy phrasing from Livingstone, I can’t actually find the comment that makes him a raving anti-semite.

I wonder how many of the Labour MPs calling for his suspension happen to fall in the anti-Corbyn camp?

clodhopper – anyone bringing Hitler into a debate on anti-semetism in today’s ‘sound bite’ news media is on to a loser.

The sort of nuances you’re trying to convey are lost.

the message that gets through is one of suggesting that “Hitler wasn’t as bad as he’s made out” which in the context of trying to calm down a debate on anti-jewish propaganda that was shared by an MP is pouring petrol on the flames.

Ken knows all this.

Whatever he feels about Israel airing it today was calculated to a) raise Ken’s own profile and b) damage Corbyn as leader and the rest of the Labour party a week before an election.