Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)
  • Justifying an Orange Five over a very capable hardtail?
  • abingham
    Full Member

    Situation: I’m a pretty average rider, and currently ride a Ragley Mmmbop which I bought to get back into MTB after a decent spell on the road/CX. Since buying it I’ve been upgrading so it now has a fairly burly build kit (Fox 36 150mm, Enve M70 rims/CK hubs, Hope V2 brakes) and gets used for regular thrashing in the woods all year round in all conditions.

    As the trails I enjoy riding have been getting steeper and more technical as my ability and confidence has developed, I’m finding it increasingly difficult to keep the rear wheel controlled under braking and in the turns (have used DHRII and DHF on it so far) which is hammering my confidence in the tight and twisty stuff I love. I’m now feeling the ‘need’ for a full susser – particularly an Orange Five frame, which I’d port the kit from my Ragley over to. In my head a FS would help keep my rear wheel in check and give me more confidence down the tech.

    I suppose the question is this: Finances aside, for UK riding, is an Orange Five a justifiable upgrade over a very capable hardtail for the reasons above, or is it just a gap in my skills which I’d still need to work on even with a FS frame?

    nickc
    Full Member

    You don’t need to justify buying a bike, you’re amongst friends here.

    Essentially It’s a toy for messing about in the woods, finances aside, buy the toy that will make you most happy.

    thepurist
    Full Member

    Two thoughts:

    If you’ve not worked on your skills/had any coaching then that will probably help and will defer the ‘new bike’ thing until availability is a bit more sensible than it is now too.

    If you’re worried about keeping the rear wheel controlled under braking then is a single pivot bike the right choice for an FS? Under braking it won’t behave that differently to your hardtail. Other suspension designs are more consistent under braking so you’d potentially get more benefit beyond the ‘new bike’ confidence boost.

    (but also what nickc said – anything that gives you more smile time is a good upgrade)

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    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    Wot Nick says.

    Plus, for a given skill level you can do more with better equipment. Natch.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Yep, but in case you really want justifications:

    1. It’s got suspension.
    2. That stuff about learning skills on hardtails is questionable anyway.
    3. Full-sus bikes are just more fun, if we’re all honest about it.

    abingham
    Full Member

    On the one hand, justification is not the problem (see above – stupid spendy carbon wheels on £300 alloy hardtail frame), but on the other I don’t want to throw good money at a new frame to find exactly the same problems, as there’s a lot I really like about the Ragley.

    I’d definitely considered getting coaching (Jay Williamson is fairly local to me) but kind of put it off thinking that turning up on a hardtail and asking to ride like a God is asking for trouble!

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Not at all. Skills training will be applicable on any bike and the coach will likely focus on the fundamentals.

    However, just out of interest, did you try the bike with aluminium rims before the Enves?

    I’m not saying all carbon wheels are harsh and detrimental to grip, but it is a thing that can happen.

    abingham
    Full Member

    @chakaping – yes, had some Spank somethings on before.

    Being honest the coaching is probably a very sensible idea, it’s not exactly going to be money wasted even if I do still want a FS afterwards…

    brads
    Free Member

    Do it

    I tested a Production Privee Shan hardtail for a few days, loved it , then bought an Orange 5.

    Best decision in my opinion.

    Wait till you hit somit like Caddon bank (rocky rough bastridge of a trail) on a hardtail.

    pothead
    Free Member

    , I’m finding it increasingly difficult to keep the rear wheel controlled under braking

    As already suggested, if this ^^^^^ is the main draw of full suss there are better options than a single pivot frame as the rear brake prevents the suspension from working to its full potential. On the upside if the bike is to be ridden all year round there is far less maintenance required. I have a 27.5 hardtail and a 29er full suss and there’s very little that I’d do on the full suss that I wouldn’t do on the hardtail, slightly slower on the hardtail and definitely more tired the next day. As far as justification goes, you only live once, if you want it and can afford it then go for it, just don’t expect to suddenly become a better rider because of the bike

    tonyd
    Full Member

    Buy the Five, when it stops making you grin sell it and buy something else 🙂

    molgrips
    Free Member

    there are better options than a single pivot frame as the rear brake prevents the suspension from working to its full potential.

    Rubbish.

    is a single pivot bike the right choice for an FS? Under braking it won’t behave that differently to your hardtail.

    Also rubbish.

    samuelr
    Free Member

    An orange 5 is a fine bike. It works best when you let off the brakes.

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    What nick and chaka said, go for it. 👍🏻

    benp1
    Full Member

    re the coaching point. I went had a session with Jedi and did it on a £500 Spesh Hardrock! That was back in about 2014. Bike wasn’t the thing holding me back, although I did buy a dropper afterwards. I’ve since upgraded and long sold that bike on

    brads
    Free Member

    I’ve heard all sorts of rubbish about single pivot 5,s etc
    I love mine , I ride stuff I thought I never would a pace that feking scares me (slow) and it always performs.

    I also replace the frame bearings for peanuts last week

    belugabob
    Free Member

    Of course there’s justification for buying an Orange 5 – how else are you supposed to feel like you’re being chased downhill, by a filing cabinet?

    Seriously, though, if you feel like you want it, can afford it, and can swap your bits back to the Ragley, if it doesn’t work out, then go for it.

    mtbqwerty
    Full Member

    I vote to go for it, if it doesn’t work out, you still have the Ragley frame.

    What’s making you dead set on the 5?

    abingham
    Full Member

    Sorry for the delay in replying – 502 server error all last night trying to get on STW!

    I’ve booked a coaching session with Jay Williamson, been meaning to for ages so go to get the push to get it done.


    @mtbqwerty
    , I want something made of metal, simple to maintain as it will be ridden all year round and ideally by a UK-based brand (to do my bit for local-ish business). Aside from that, they are pretty synomymous with UK biking and easily had on the 2nd hand market for a good price. I had a poster of Steve Peat on a 324 on my wall as a kid so am pretty bought in to the Orange ‘thing’, also think they look great to my tastes.

    Other options would be a Starling Swoop (but ££) or Pipedream Full Moxie (but also ££), I guess Cotic would be in there too. I’d be buying second hand and want to be a chunk under £1k ideally, and would like non-boost for my existing wheels without needing adapters.

    stevede
    Free Member

    To be fair, i wouldn’t worry about keeping the rear wheel controlled on a hardtail 🙂 It’s a bit of a different style of riding than a full suss, you tend to ride the fork more (well i do anyway), the back wheel does it’s own thing!!!! Guessing you’re South West based for a coaching sesh with Jay – for reference if you haven’t been to Gawton on the hardtail it’s fine, i’ve hit everything there on my hardtail which is basically a dh bike without a rear shock to be fair (On One Hello Dave).
    A full suss will help with confidence but a hardtail is also great for learning how to weight and unweight the bike properly and pick lines etc.
    Always had a soft spot for the older Oranges, had a few Fives and Alpine 160’s over the years, all great fun, just make sure you get a decent shock – CCDB coil and airs on my last few were all decent.

    militantmandy
    Free Member

    is a single pivot bike the right choice for an FS? Under braking it won’t behave that differently to your hardtail.

    Also rubbish.

    Is it really? I thought it was fairly well accepted? I am happy to be educated!

    I went from a Nomad 4 to a Starling Murmur. I absolutely love the Starling and I’m faster on it for sure, but it to me it feels like it doesn’t behave as well as the Nomad when dragging the rear brake. Good incentive to brake less though.

    Olly
    Free Member

    the price of fives is pretty reasonable now, thanks to the price of everything else shooting up.
    Im on board with your reasoning, low maintenance single pivot, british made. There’s always the latest and greatest frames out there with links and variable pivots and plastic back ends and shiny paint but the happiest guys seem to be the ones on the battered 10 yr old five.

    I got mine cause i was fed up with 10 tiny little bearings to change once a year. The back end does bind a bit under braking so dont go overboard on the rotor size at the rear, but you get used to that and it encourages you to get off the brakes and move your weight more centrally on the steeper rough stuff.

    Its been said a million times before, but they really do just have spot on sorted Geometry. (or mine does, at least)

    If i found a crack, i think i would either get another one the same (which it doesnt look like i can, as im on a 150 fork/140rear 29er five29), or perhaps a Cotic FlareMax, or actually just a steel hardtail frame, for the change. 🙂

    scandal42
    Free Member

    I just built a stage 5. It’s flipping ace, just buy one if your heart is set on one.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Oranges are great bikes for hardtail fans, to be fair.

    gribble
    Free Member

    I think if you have justified it in your head, that’s all good. Orange 5 was (still is) my dream bike.

    I have a hard tail and a full suss. My HT (Bird Zero AM) is awesome for most of my local stuff (Surrey Hills) and more capable than I am; it is also efficient to climb on, compared to the FS. But my FS (Transition Supressor) is great for pointing downhill, especially on rough(er) ground. Makes descents easier work.

    I have just had a weekend with a days uplift in FOD; I am sure others could have coped on a HT, but it felt to me like the FS was very helpful – the roots got the bike suspension working overtime and I was glad I had the Transition FS for that.

    chestrockwell
    Full Member

    Chaka’s right, the 5 is great for a hardtail fan. I’ve had various Orange full suss bikes and currently own a Stage 5, which is ace! I love a good hardtail but when I reduced the fleet I kept the full suss, not ht.

    I’ve tried other supposedly fancier rear suss systems but prefer the feel of the Orange. Buy one!

    mildred
    Full Member

    There is definitely “something” about an Orange 5 (well actually most orange suspension bikes).

    There’s loads spoken about how terrible they are under braking: they’re not. And how they’re made from or look like filing cabinets: they don’t.

    Yes, the suspension stiffens under braking; in my experience this makes no difference whatsoever to the enjoyment I got from my Orange. I would also argue that when the bike is well set up it’s virtually unnoticeable, with only a very subtle effect on the way the bike feels.

    What it does give you is something that is totally predictable; the suspension squats ever so slightly under braking and then extends slightly when the brakes are released. I remember Steve Jones writing in Dirt magazine describing how he feels like it seemed to gain speed out of every bend and over every root, and was particularly poppy and playful over small lips etc. I think this is the subtle effect of the suspension extending slightly & the slightly rearward axle path pushing the bike forward. Again, it’s a very subtle feeling but coupled with some of the best geometry it makes for a fun & engaging ride.

    I personally find them the easiest bike to pump over trail undulations etc. You do seem to be able to make speed where more complex designs can feel a little too controlled or even dead. But that’s often more to do with the other bikes’ designers having different priorities. That is, they’re not bad bikes, just different. What I’ve found is that it all boils down to personal preference.

    I like a playful, poppy yet very predictable bike. Someone said that the shock is important for these bikes; I’d second that – I think the lack of complications & being fairly linear means that shock set up can be felt very easily, whether good or bad.

    As always I’d say try before you buy, but if that’s not possible it wouldn’t be difficult to sell on if you didn’t gel with it.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Is it really? I thought it was fairly well accepted?

    People have heard about this thing called ‘brake jack’ but it seems that there is a lot of misinformation about this. In some designs, the brake caliper was/is on a different suspension element to the main pivot so that when you applied the brakes the torque on the caliper went to compress or extend the suspension, which could stiffen it up.

    On an Orange, or any other design where the caliper is on the main swingarm, this can’t happen. The stiffness you feel under braking is caused by the wheel resisting your forward motion and skipping over bumps. Now, due to the spring rates, damping and leverage ratio curves and such, some bikes are less stiff when braking than others. So your Orange might feel like the back is skipping about under braking on rough surfaces more than on other bikes.

    But the real question is – is this a problem? Most probably not. An executive saloon car needs the suspension as plush as possible, but we’re all happy with the idea that sporty handling cars need harder suspension which is less comfortable. In MTB terms, suspension plushness is not the main concern, IMO – there are so many things that make a bike fun to ride that are far more important than suspension plushness.

    This is why armchair engineers complain about Oranges, but owners often love them.

    militantmandy
    Free Member

    Makes sense. It’s purely anecdotal that I feel the rear end stiffen up more on the Murmur and there are many other differences between the two bikes that could account for it I guess. As you say, it certainly doesn’t reduce my enjoyment, but it does make me consider how I ride in a slightly different way.

    chiefgrooveguru
    Full Member

    “ People have heard about this thing called ‘brake jack’ but it seems that there is a lot of misinformation about this. In some designs, the brake caliper was/is on a different suspension element to the main pivot so that when you applied the brakes the torque on the caliper went to compress or extend the suspension, which could stiffen it up.

    On an Orange, or any other design where the caliper is on the main swingarm, this can’t happen.”

    This is mostly wrong. The pivot point’s location vs the rear contact patch determines the brake squat, which is what stiffens the suspension. The steeper the angle between the contact patch and the pivot, the more the rear resists rising under braking. This keeps the geometry more consistent but reduces the suspension sensitivity.

    The more rearward and high the pivot point the greater the brake squat. It’s most extreme on the new high pivot bikes, then on other single pivots (Evil, Cotic, Orange and all the new bendy chainstay bikes, etc), then it’s a mix of counter-rotating 4 bar (like Birds where the top link is hanging) and short link 4 bar (Banshee, Giant, Ibis, Santa Cruz etc), and least on standard “Horst link” 4 bar (Specialized et al).

    I had a Banshee before and a Specialized now. I don’t think the Spesh has enough brake squat, it would ride better if it stiffened more to keep it lower and slacker braking into turns.

    abingham
    Full Member

    With all this being said, I do keep coming back to this article https://www.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-matt-lakins-fully-rigid-stooge-cycles-mk4-enduro-race-bike.html (sorry STW crew!) and maybe think I’m missing the point entirely!

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Very eloquent and accurate description Mildred.

    Other bikes might be easier to ride, but none are more fun IME.

    iffoverload
    Free Member

    if you want the rear wheel uder control when braking and turning over bumps a single pivot is not going to offer the best available tracking.

    Still Oranges are nice though.

    zerocool
    Full Member

    Orange make great bikes. The Five is a really good bike and will happily either compliment or replace your Mmbop.

    I didn’t need a full sus bike when I first got one as my hardtail was fine but it made some stuff easier and less tiring.

    I’ve had bikes with I-Drive, VPP, Maestro and Horst links and I’ve learnt that it’s more about the geometry than the suspension design nowadays as few people make a bike with bad suspension these days.

    My Orange Alpine was one of the best bikes I’ve ever ridden. Fives are just as much fun.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    I’ve had bikes with I-Drive, VPP, Maestro and Horst links and I’ve learnt that it’s more about the geometry than the suspension design nowadays as few people make a bike with bad suspension these days.

    This is very true.

    I’ve recently made my Orange very slack and suddenly the stiffening under braking thing is MUCH less of a problem than it used to be.

    mildred
    Full Member

    I also think that a few years ago when some of the armchair experts formed their opinions, people weren’t quite so adept at bike setup. I think it’s key to whether a bike feels “good” or “bad”, & taking the time to really REALLY think about how each part interacts is essential.

    For example, a few people used to say tripe such as “you should be bottoming your suspension every ride…” ok, so if my forks were soft enough to bottom on a trail ride, every time I braked my weight would surge forward & compress my forks, which could feel like the rear extending. However, my rear shock would be trying to to squat slightly due to the kinematic of an orange single pivot. I was using an air shock so this has a natural amount of ramp up the deeper it goes into it’s travel, which means it has now lost its sensitivity, stiffened up and is skipping around, putting more of my weight forward and feeling generally dog shit..!

    Thankfully we’re all a little bit more educated but some of the armchair experts still exist, and so does their tripe on the internet.

    I’ve always believed that to make the back end feel right, you need to get the front feeling good first. This is usually quite simple & most manufactures base settings are close. Once that’s done your forks are behaving well, you can focus in on the back end. On my old patriot 66, even the chain length had a huge effect on how the back end felt. I’ve never overtook so many people at the mega (the steep wooded bit, I think from alpe d’huez – Oz station), as when my chain snapped. It was amazing.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    I did an afternoon of chainless runs at Gwydir when the freehub on my Stage 6 went on the fritz the other year. It was so fluid and smooth, one of the best feelings I’ve had on a bike.

    I’m guessing that’s a bit like these fashionable high-pivot frames feel.

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