• This topic has 25 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 1 month ago by TiRed.
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  • Jumbo-Visma: the Story (no mention of PEDs)
  • Premier Icon SaxonRider
    Full Member

    I know quite a bit about how Sky developed and how they earned their success.

    I have like DQS for quite awhile, and understand their historic focus on one-days.

    But watching Jumbo-Visma this TdF has been remarkable. I always thought of them as they yellow team in the peloton’, and now their leading in a way that I associated with Sky.

    So, without any glib mention of drugs, how have they emerged so strongly so quickly? Is it just the addition of the right riders? A new approach to training and equipment? A new team director who has breathed some new life into them?

    What’s their story?

    Premier Icon TiRed
    Full Member

    Copy Sky tactics. Recruit team to accomplish this. HTH.

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Full Member

    Look at the palmares of half the team.

    When someone as good as Tom Dumoulin is arguably your 3rd best rider then your team is in a good place

    Premier Icon the00
    Free Member

    And the ketones supplement that they openly take. Possibly.

    Premier Icon w00dster
    Full Member

    Pretty much nailed by Tired. Just to add that they’re not a new team, or new to the top of the rankings.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wins_by_Kwantum–Decosol–Yoko_and_its_successors

    Also worth noting Dylan G has been a major part of the team. So the team have been part supporting a sprinter as well as a GC rider.

    Premier Icon Superficial
    Free Member

    They’re a team of very strong riders, with a good game-plan. Before Sky, people could win due to great individual performances. Then Sky came along and completely harnessed the power of a team working together. Ever since they got rid of Cavendish, they made sure they were about one thing only – GC wins. They were bold, confident and entirely dedicated to that aim. Whereas almost every other team would try and hedge their bets, aiming for breakaways and stage wins and sprints and mountain points here and there. The other teams have just got their shit together. Sky were great, but I don’t believe there was any secret. And now JV copied the playbook.

    So, without any glib mention of drugs,

    … he mentioned, glibly.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    In 5 year’s time when the GC-focus tactics are the same across 4 or 5 teams, will one team still clearly dominate across 3 weeks of racing? If so, will we still be wondering how?

    Premier Icon IdleJon
    Full Member

    They look very strong until you look at who is in the bunch with them – still 15, 20 riders when Bernal was getting dropped, including Yates, Porte, Landa, etc. Good, but not the classiest riders ever. Their performance doesn’t look that remarkable unless you are basing it on the fact that Ineos are getting dropped, and Ineos are very under-prepared for this race. For as long as I can remember there’s always been a team controlling the race for as long as they can, in the mountains. And, as said above, when you’ve got Dumoulin, WvA, et al..

    The suggestion that Jumbo are on PEDs is laughable after years of Ineos looking unbeatable – and Jumbo certainly look beatable. Is this some weird jingoistic thing that to be better than a British team they must be taking drugs? (They probably are, but then they probably all are, imo, but that’s a different thing!)

    And the ketones supplement that they openly take. Possibly.

    Doesn’t every team that can afford it do this?

    Premier Icon mrmo
    Free Member

    Doesn’t every team that can afford it do this?

    I would suggest most teams are taking advantage of everything that isn’t banned. If it gives an advantage why wouldn’t you?

    Premier Icon w00dster
    Full Member

    If you look at my link above and view the years, you can see from 2017 the stage and overall victories are increasing year in year. There is a definite increase in overall victories as each year goes on. That is to do with the roster and who has come into the team.
    It’s not out of the blue or a complete surprise. But you also have other teams on the decline, for example, Movistar are a shadow of their former team, Ineos not competitive this year, Astana as a team not able to compete. So no contador, Valverdi, Quintana and no Nibali attacking and putting pressure on the team.
    I do think there has been some serious planning based around Roglic from around 2017 to get them to where they are now. It’s Dylan I feel sorry for.

    Premier Icon DanW
    Free Member

    I think some Texan may disagree that Sky invented mountain trains and strong teams.

    It’s not a stacked field and the preparation of almost everyone has been sub optimal, some made worse by crashes and injuries coming in to the race, on top of the pandemic affecting different people and countries differently. Jumbo have managed to bring a strong enough team with everyone there or thereabouts whilst the other teams haven’t had all the cards fall in the same way IMO.

    Oh and I’m sure the purists would say rim brakes are the reason they do so well 😉 😀

    Premier Icon IdleJon
    Full Member

    It’s not out of the blue or a complete surprise.

    I guess that it is a surprise if you support Sky/Ineos or only time arch one race per year.

    Premier Icon 136stu
    Full Member

    It’s Dylan I feel sorry for

    Its Fabio Jakobsen that I feel sorry for.

    Premier Icon w00dster
    Full Member

    @136stu yeah fair point, can’t argue with that.

    Premier Icon madeupname
    Free Member

    Jumbo DS kicked off Tour

    ‘Sprinters’ leading up mountains, train of riders powering at the front of the peleton, yet DS gets funny when yellow jersey bike has routine examination.
    Twitter would explode if that was related to Sky/Ineos!

    No mention of PEDS 😉

    Premier Icon stevious
    Full Member

    Some good insight into the team’s development over recent years from The Cycling Podcast:

    Premier Icon oikeith
    Full Member

    I only really watch the TDF each year, dont watch the other races, my assumption is COVID created the perfect storm for another team to win it this year, not too dissimilar to how Leicester City won the Premier League few years ago.

    Did the different and varying lockdowns help create this perfect storm? France, Monaco and Spain all had quite severe lock downs for awhile, I am not aware of how restrictive Holland or Slovakia locked down and whether those athletes could get out and train in the real world.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Yeah, I’d read that Belgium had looser restrictions, riders could go out and train for as long as they liked?

    yet DS gets funny when yellow jersey bike has routine examination.

    Apparently he got funny because the inspector damaged the chainset when dismantling it. The bike itself was ‘clean’.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    Did the different and varying lockdowns help create this perfect storm?

    Belgium does sound like it was less restricted, but Dan Martin was interviewed and said the move to more indoor, focused training was a benefit and his endurance came back very easily. I wonder if some riders have simply benefited from a change of training and racing regime (timing also) whereas it’s detrimental to others. Some might have got more rest among the focused training and benefited from that also.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Am trying to relate WvA’s form to his extended lay-off after his TdF crash last time.

    My physio was saying the other day that she is seeing a lot of amateurs using lockdown and the cessation of racing to take a step back, address any niggling issues and rebuild slowly and ‘properly’ with lots of base first etc.

    Basically what I’ve done and I’m feeling a lot fitter for it, when in the past I would start cramming in lots of turbo time as CX season approached and usually end up injuring myself again 🙁

    Wonder if some pros have benefitted from doing the same e.g. rebuilding slowly over a more extended period rather than rushing things in order to peak for a certain event. WvA would have had more time than others after he effectively missed a full season.

    Premier Icon t3ap0t
    Free Member

    There’s another good episode of the Cycling Podcast called “chasing Sky” that was made a year or two ago. Think it might be a subscriber only episode though (Friends of the podcast, which is about £15/year)

    Premier Icon CaptainFlashheart
    Free Member

    Better training
    Rounder wheels
    Marginal gains

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    I’m still bemused that they’re allowed to ride the Tour wearing yellow jerseys that are more or less the same shade as the maillot jaune. The whole point of a leader’s jersey is being able to pick out the first rider in GC instantly. It just feels wrong.

    I wonder if some riders have simply benefited from a change of training and racing regime (timing also) whereas it’s detrimental to others. Some might have got more rest among the focused training and benefited from that also.

    Lefevere is on record as saying that Alaphilippe’s relatively poor form is down to being locked up inside for months. Meanwhile Bernal was similarly trapped at home in Colombia, then once restrictions were lifted did a series of massive, mountainous rides at altitude that may well have been counter productive. It’s definitely an odd year. And riders don’t always do what their coaches tell them to.

    Premier Icon natrix
    Free Member

    In the past I think that team yellow jerseys weren’t allowed in the Tdf and so some teams had a special jersey that they only wore for the TdF (team Once maybe).

    Premier Icon IdleJon
    Full Member

    Sprinters’ leading up mountains, train of riders powering at

    If it’s WvA you’re talking about you probably need to remember that he’s not a sprinter, just very good in a sprint. (And on a hill, and in a TT, and…. 😁 )

    Premier Icon TiRed
    Full Member

    When you can convince (pay) GC riders like TdM and WvA to ride for another, then you will win (see Froome, G, Kwi, Porte…). That is what Sky showed. That is THE tactic. DG is in the same position as Cav. If you can convince those GC riders that their time will come, then so much the better (TdM and Carapaz in the Giro for example). It’s a team sport. The best team wins.

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