• This topic has 27 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by dyls.
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  • [Jobtrack] Mrs offered a job – two things I can't make my mind up on – thoughts?
  • plyphon
    Free Member

    Hello,

    Mrs got offered a job – company looks legit etc, but two things about the contract seem odd to me and we can’t make our minds up.

    1: They’ve offered her a target based salary with a base salary that’s lowish but with a higher than stated top end cap. This is odd, as she’s not in a sales capacity or anything of the sort. It’s “based around the performance of the whole office”. I asked what she would be measured on and if she’ll have targets.

    Interestingly, they said if she really didn’t like the sound of that, they would offer her a fixed salary, but it would be less than the top end cap.

    Weird? Bizzare? Or perfectly normal? Again, baring in mind she’s not in sales.

    2: These dreaded words came out – “We don’t really have fixed hours, we just work until the jobs done.” – to me that rings an alarm bell, when I interviewed at places that run flexi time (like my current employer) it was made very clear that it’s flexi and what the weekly hours were, agreed overtime, etc. “We dont really have fixed hours” sounds like something else…

    Again – I’ve asked her to clarify this.

    Am I fretting too much, or are these red flags for a scummy employer?

    5thElefant
    Free Member

    1) I’ve had that, but it was a reasonably high base.
    2) Everywhere I’ve worked my entire life has had that.

    mitsumonkey
    Free Member

    Work until the jobs done means long unpaid extra hours. Would they let her go home early if the jobs done at lunchtime? No of course not. It’s just free labour.

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    plyphon
    Free Member

    I had a job once where everyone ran out of the door like schoolkids bang on 6pm – was quite funny really. Other than that it was a completely normal office.

    jekkyl
    Full Member

    perhaps ask if she can shadow a current employee for the day and then she’ll find out and can quiz the employee with such questions.

    plyphon
    Free Member

    Work until the jobs done means long unpaid extra hours. Would they let her go home early if the jobs done at lunchtime? No of course not. It’s just free labour.

    Yeah that’s what I thought… flexi is different – I still leave halfway through a job when my hours are up for the day. 😆

    plyphon
    Free Member

    perhaps ask if she can shadow a current employee for the day and then she’ll find out and can quiz the employee with such questions.

    yeh, not a bad idea. My idea was to accept the job but continue to interview. If it’s shit then bail with no notice in probationary period. Easier said than done, though.

    TheBrick
    Free Member

    For #2 they should be able to give a rough idea. Working late should be be exceptional situations rather than the norm because management are cutting short on staff numbers.

    hora
    Free Member

    “We don’t really have fixed hours, we just work until the jobs done.”

    You need to ask what that means? It’s blatantly obvious

    In London at interviews they used to say ‘here we work hard and play hard. It’s a team players ethic’. Strange the staff work all hours and the owner plays. The owner isn’t a team player. I’ve ALWAYS asked at interview, what are the hours/work culture like? If it visibly irks the interviewer you know that it’s a bullying bad place.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    why did they stay that late?

    She needs to ask them what it means i was once offered a job where they said i had to do 1 hour extra per day for free I declined the offer. I did ask if once i had done enough did i get a day of – they looked incredulous and i said , in the pause, that i felt exactly the same about working for nothing

    allan23
    Free Member

    It’s reasonably normal these days to boost a salary. As long as the basic is OK, it wouldn’t necessarily bother me. We get a small commission on contract renewals and I’ve seen consultants get extra for hours out of the office on jobs.

    The hours thing is odd, IANAL but I would expect a basic contracted number of hours even if you are expected to work until things are done. You can be expected to work unpaid overtime as long as your salary isn’t taken below minimum wage or you break the bits of the EU working time regs you aren’t allowed to opt out of. You need the contracted hours to work out an hourly rate.

    mitsumonkey
    Free Member

    You can be expected to work unpaid overtime

    Why?

    mitsumonkey
    Free Member

    Also

    as long as your salary isn’t taken below minimum wage

    Just get a minimum wage job and do less hours surely???

    jeffl
    Full Member

    Performance related pay should be based on individual targets and performance only.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Why?

    Quite common in salaried roles rather than an hourly rate.

    My last job had an opt out after a certain level whereby you’d be offered a ‘car allowance’ in return for not getting overtime, you’re just expected to work the hours needed to keep the job on track (which will probably be more than the minimum/contract).

    Wasn’t such a bad offer, the car allowance was about 10% so if you can do the work required in less than 1 extra hour a day you win.

    tomd
    Free Member

    1. Sounds totally bizarre.
    2. Isn’t necessarily bad. I worked in a place like that but it did genuinely work both ways, no bother leaving early when it was quiet and it did pretty much balance out. It could be some Wolf of Wall St esque nightmare though.

    plyphon
    Free Member

    It’s reasonably normal these days to boost a salary. As long as the basic is OK, it wouldn’t necessarily bother me. We get a small commission on contract renewals and I’ve seen consultants get extra for hours out of the office on jobs.

    If the job offered just the basic, it wouldn’t be enough. That’s what worries me, targets by nature keep going up – it it turns out theyre not hitting targets… well back to square 1.

    Ive asked her to get clarification on the hours thing. Rings bells for bad culture for me also.

    poly
    Free Member

    And yet the strangest thing isn’t either of the two points you mention – its that you seem to be making up your wife’s mind on the job. FWIW: whilst my staff have “official hours” we work a ‘get the job done approach’ so sometimes people will be working later and other times they will leave earlier, its not formalised like flexi time. If the workforce are professional and deliver on time then nobody is looking to calculate the number of hours you do. Whilst the bonus aspect may not be normal its not unheard of either. If the back office team can make or break the success of the business just as much as the guy who gets the order in (e.g. by delivering on time, customer retention, ensuring the sales team have the information they need, by making sure that the call from a customer gets dealt with even although the person who should have done it is on holiday) then why not make they feel like they own it and succeed if the company succeeds.

    plyphon
    Free Member

    And yet the strangest thing isn’t either of the two points you mention – its that you seem to be making up your wife’s mind on the job.

    i think thats a pretty gross conclusion to jump to, really.

    ourmaninthenorth
    Full Member

    Pay and rations is always one to shake people up.

    To address the questions:

    1. Never seen it quite like this other than in sales roles. Normally I’d expect a base salary plus bonus, which would be payable on individual and business performance (or a thousand combinations on that theme). This is basically a higher risk bonus structure – the gamble is between safe and steady but no risk of the bonus not coming in, or higher risk with higher reward. I rather like the idea.

    Her concern should not be about the total £££ achievable, but on the likelihood of it being achieved a d what the factors are that influence it. Since she won’t know until she’s there she can’t make an informed decision. Can she ask to go on the “safe and steady” for the first year and then choose to switch st the start of year 2 (or new FY) to the bonused option once she understands it?

    2. If she’s being paid a salary, this is normal. Always has been and always will be. The level of hours expectation is not related to the importance of the role or the size of the salary. Often it’s culture and industry sector. Put it this way: when I was a newly qualified lawyer 15 years ago I’d often work 80+ hour weeks. I’m now not a lawyer and earn 3-4 times as much for fewer hours. But, while I know my contract probably says 37.5 hours a week in it, there are some weeks when I do that and others where I work way more.

    If you have a lifestyle based around the idea you never leave the office later than 6, entering a job where a deadline means you’re there past 11 will be an unpleasant shock. Or a sense of achievement and satisfaction at a job well done.

    plyphon
    Free Member

    Her concern should not be about the total £££ achievable, but on the likelihood of it being achieved a d what the factors are that influence it. Since she won’t know until she’s there she can’t make an informed decision. Can she ask to go on the “safe and steady” for the first year and then choose to switch st the start of year 2 (or new FY) to the bonused option once she understands it?

    Yeah, thats the nail on the head really. I might suggest that. Thanks.

    Regarding 2: I’m lucky in that my industry the culture is fantastic and very conductive to doing great work. And i’m very grateful of that, but understand I doubt it’ll be forever! Again, she won’t know until she’s there!

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    A few folk here have obviously never worked in a shop. Do you think customers get thrown out the door as soon as the “official” hour is passed? 😆 There are countless other jobs where it’s not possible to knock off when the whistle sounds. It’s about flexibility and having a good relationship with your employer/manager.

    simon_g
    Full Member

    I have seen #1 – in a declining company that after a couple of years of frozen pay, offered it as a kind of pay rise. If the company hit it’s performance targets we’d get a bonus of x% of salary. Of course, they didn’t have a hope in hell of hitting them so no-one got anything. Saw similar at a place I interviewed at and also didn’t see that their targets were achievable. Good companies pay a competitive salary then pay a bonus on top if things are going well.

    #2 depends entirely on how flexible they are the other way. If they’d have a problem with you knocking off early in the calm after a crazy week then not somewhere I’d want to work. At the very least, you need a basic idea of expected weekly hours and core times (and how contactable they expect you to be outside of those). If not, big red flag for me that it’s run by workaholics that don’t have enough staff.

    suburbanreuben
    Free Member

    … salary that’s lowish but with a higher than stated top end cap. T

    A top end cap? Is it usual to limit the rewards for performance?
    Sounds like a shit employer TBH, but what do I know? Haven’t worked for an employer for 30 years+…

    chakaping
    Free Member

    See if any employees have posted on here…
    https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/index.htm

    plyphon
    Free Member

    Yeah tried glassdoor – no entries yet as theyre new to the UK market (but successful overseas.)

    She’s decided she’s going to go for it and thanks you all for your input

    wrecker
    Free Member

    It’s about flexibility and having a good relationship with your employer/manager.

    I agree with this, and think it’s important. I work on a “don’t take the piss” principle and it works both ways. Some days I’ll get home a bit early, some days I’ll get on the road at 0500, and not get home until late. If it ever got too much give and not enough take, I’d request additional staff and if this didn’t come, I’d just stop putting in all the hours.
    I had a comment on one of the team recently, complaining that the guy was finishing on time every day. I asked if he had delivered anything late, which was replied in the negative. Just said, OK let me know if he does. If someone is sufficiently effective at managing their time/workload then good on them, they’ll get no shit from me.

    dyls
    Full Member

    Without having something to compare to, id prefer a fixed salary to start with. How would you know if the targets are acheivable?

    Id also like something stating core hours. Nothing wrong working to get a job done as long ad you get it back, otherwise could end up in a culture of always working late to complete tasks instead of the company hiring more staff.

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