Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 215 total)
  • Jess Varnish
  • Premier Icon crashtestmonkey
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    the whole episode does leave BC with a nasty stain.

    Premier Icon silentsi
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    Sounds like his people skills could do with a bit of a polish.

    Premier Icon mboy
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    No Plane to Rio for her!

    Wonder who Shane will Chisel out next…?

    Premier Icon swavis
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    She’ll just be satin watching it on the telly like the rest of us

    Premier Icon ac282
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    Nicole was a pain to those dismissive of women’s cycling. If she’d sat back and went along with how BC wanted to do things she would never have got anywhere.

    Premier Icon scaredypants
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    I guess Sutton’s suggesting that, in the end, shellacced something ?

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
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    The “go and have a baby” comment is not good but we don’t know the context and as has been mentioned above, if her plan was to do Rio and then have a family then saying to her “you’re not going to Rio so go and have a baby” is not that unreasonable, not overly tactful but not as bad as it could be.

    How could it have been worse? I’m intrigued.

    Premier Icon ratherbeintobago
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    Nicole was a pain to those dismissive of women’s cycling.

    And team-mates, by all accounts.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
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    How could it have been worse? I’m intrigued

    Like I say – context. It’s whataboutery but if she’d always suggested she’d work towards Rio and then retire and start a family, to tell her she wasn’t going so she should ‘go and have a baby’ like she’d planned might be tactless but no more.

    Say she’d for example said “Well, I think you’re wrong and I’m going to go away, work extra hard and prove you wrong” and his retort to that was ‘I don’t think so love, be a good little girl and go and have a baby’

    Might that be worse?

    UNTIL WE KNOW WHAT WAS SAID AND IN WHAT CONTEXT, WE ONLY HAVE ONE SIDE AND NO CONTEXT SO WHILE IT MIGHT APPEAR BAD, WE JUST DON’T KNOW.

    Premier Icon Clover
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    To be honest BC’s whole selection ‘strategy’ seems to be a bit of a shambles in so many areas.

    And as for women’s cycling… it really does feel as though the initiatives outside BC are better and more effective for getting women racing. MTB and CX just seem easier to do as a woman than road. The best scheme for getting women to road race is run by a woman who just thought she’d do it because no one else was – she has been filling up race start lines in the north west (to the incredulity of BC staff).

    They’ve got form so I’m afraid I find someone saying they cocked up the strategy to get riders selected and they’re sexist pretty credible.

    Premier Icon ninfan
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    Given the known performance benefits of early stage pregnancy in elite athletes, then perhaps it was a training tip 😉

    Premier Icon taxi25
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    If he’d said to a male cyclist ” look it’s over your not quite good enough. Time to get on with your life maybe marry that girl your with, start a family” would that be sexist, would we be having this debate, I very much doubt it.

    Premier Icon andylaightscat
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    ratherbeintobago, have you read NCs’ autobiography?

    Premier Icon reggiegasket
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    Looks to me like Varnish is trying to get Sutton sacked, by going to the press with a sexism charge on Sutton. Which he has denied, according to CN, and we don’t have any proof of (that I’ve seen).

    From the Cycling News:
    “I wholeheartedly deny that I said or did anything other than act with complete professionalism in my dealings with Jess,” said Sutton.

    Whether or not Sutton did say something is, currently, unprovable. What is clear however is that Varnish is going after Sutton in the press, and I can only assume that would be to get him sacked. Not a good thing to do Jess, I suggest.

    Premier Icon ratherbeintobago
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    ratherbeintobago, have you read NCs’ autobiography?

    No, is it any good?

    Premier Icon jambalaya
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    @ghostely, right you are of course I remembered the wrong athlete

    Re Nicole top level sport isnt’t a personality contest, if she had the work ethic and produced the goods then that’s what counts. If the coaches found her difficult then its up to them to sort themselves out. Unkess she’s disrupting a team ornthe whole project who cares if she’s difficult to work with.

    Premier Icon cinnamon_girl
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    No, is it any good?

    @ ratherbeintobago – yes but you’ll probably end up with a sense of anger at the injustice she endured. Here you go and free delivery too:

    https://wordery.com/the-breakaway-nicole-cooke-9781471130359

    Premier Icon andylaightscat
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    C_G
    agreed 🙂
    Yes it is good

    Premier Icon atlaz
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    Whether or not Sutton did say something is, currently, unprovable. What is clear however is that Varnish is going after Sutton in the press, and I can only assume that would be to get him sacked. Not a good thing to do Jess, I suggest.

    Unprovable by us but who knows, perhaps not unprovable by Varnish and/or Sutton.

    As for her trying to get him sacked, it’s a tough one. If you genuinely feel that someone is damaging your workplace and have tried the correct lines of complaint, sometimes an alternative route is your only option. We can debate the morality of that but it tends to be based on your perspective at that time.

    Premier Icon clodhopper
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    I find the fact that Sutton has not directly denied making the statements Varnish is accusing him of, very telling. All he is doing, is expressing his own opinion of how he conducted himself, claiming he ‘acted professionally’. It’s this definition that is under scrutiny here. Having seen Sutton in action at events, it wouldn’t surprise me if the claims are true. Sutton was an average pro without any globally significant major wins, now surrounded by athletes who are the very best in the world, so it is highly possible his ego needs an outlet for his frustrations and insecurities at times. A bit like the frustrated dad projecting his insecurities through his kids. I suspect BC is full of men like him.

    The fact that some commentators on here don’t seem to recognise or appreciate the depth of sexism that women in all fields have to endure, shows the extent of the issue. Saying ‘oh it’s not that bad’ or ‘it’s not really sexist is it’ seems to be a way of dismissing what to many men, is a very uncomfortable issue that they are unwilling/unable to engage with. You don’t get to decide what sexism is or isn’t. That’s why it’s the subject of debate and discussion. If you aren’t able to engage with that discourse , then that speaks about you as an individual, not the issue itself.

    Premier Icon lunge
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    The fact that some commentators on here don’t seem to recognise or appreciate the depth of sexism that women in all fields have to endure, shows the extent of the issue

    What I’m trying to do is separate the 2 issues. Is there sexism in sport and indeed in the world at large? Well sadly, yes, yes there is.

    But, what I said above is that we have no idea of the context of some of the remarks made to Jess, the “go and have babies” comment on the surface is pretty ropey, but with context it may not have been made in the way a lot of people are suggesting. My view in the surface is that you have an athlete who is raging that she is not been taken forward and is airing her dirty washing in public and the odd person here is questioning the wisdom of that. They’re not doing that because she’s female, they’re doing that because they don’t like how she’s handling it.

    And in the subject if Sutton being an failed pro, well that may be true but then most coaches are, in fact very few elite athletes make great coaches as they have little sympathy with how to motive people who are less good than they were. In fact, much go the BC and Sky tpmanagement team are failed athletes, Tim Kerrison for one.

    Premier Icon clodhopper
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    “My view in the surface is that you have an athlete who is raging that she is not been taken forward and is airing her dirty washing in public and the odd person here is questioning the wisdom of that.”

    Or you could take the alternative view, that Sutton has indeed been sexist, Varnish has been treated unfairly, and some commentators are either failing to recognise that, or acting as apologists for sexism.

    I think it’s pretty fair to say that female athletes are generally victims of sexism; we only have to look at rates of pay and media treatment of athletes to see just how deeply entrenched this is. And to immediately suggest that an athlete is only making statements because they’re ‘pissed off’, is taking a pretty narrow-minded view, in my opinion.

    Premier Icon ratherbeintobago
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    Or you could take the alternative view, that Sutton has indeed been sexist, Varnish has been treated unfairly, and some commentators are either failing to recognise that, or acting as apologists for sexism.

    You could also take a middle view that while she’s been treated badly by a sexist coaching team, not renewing her contract was a reasonable decision on performance grounds?

    Premier Icon jambalaya
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    Succesful elite level athletes are almost by definition single minded and as such don’t make good coaches. They also feel they’ve been there done that. Team sportspeople tend to be a bit different but imho by and large they are the same. “Giving something back” via talks or individual sessions is a bit different than the full time grind of coaching

    Premier Icon MTB-Rob
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    putting the sexism issue aside just for a bit, I think there is just as big questions people have to ask about how BC and have handled the whole thing.

    1, If Jess was not getting better times quicker, why wasn’t she told before hand and review her training etc.
    2, (I might be wrong) As Jess is on BC program surely BC is coaching her and setting her training etc, so you could say BC are the ones who failed by not setting the right training/program?
    3, after been told, Jess tried to get her training data etc but was told no “They couldn’t give it to her” Which to me if that what they using to not renewing her contract, then why can’t she have it, look at it and see where she is not performing and for them to back up what they are saying?

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
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    All very odd. I’m surprised that people are rushing to take sides based on one side of a story and their own preconceived ideas of the people involved.

    Premier Icon Clover
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    I’d say Victoria Pendleton can hardly be a case of ‘sour grapes’:Here

    And the BC comment on Nicole Cooke’s piece sums up the problem. In summary ‘yes we like it when the women win medals but they can hop in the back of the team car for the really big races’.

    Premier Icon tenacious_doug
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    And the BC comment on Nicole Cooke’s piece sums up the problem. In summary ‘yes we like it when the women win medals but they can hop in the back of the team car for the really big races’.

    No, the summary was that the fact that there was Womens race to compete in was down to the IOC & local organisers, nothing to do with BC, which seems entirely fair. I don’t think BC are coming across very well in this whole thing generally, but you’re twisting their comments in this case.

    Premier Icon curiousyellow
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    Wait what?

    So they wear the BC jersey but aren’t funded by the same bodies?

    BC’s treatment of women having read Nicole Cooke’s biography does not look good. It doesn’t look good if even half of what she’s saying is true. Some examples:

    – Men with DNFs in the road race given kit and funding while women don’t even get to field a full team.
    – Not being allowed to race in the juniors with the men’s field. The plot about her having to hide in a van so a certain race organiser wouldn’t take umbrage at her being involved in a race was particularly frustrating. Where do these people come from?
    – Sutton’s attitude towards training the women didn’t seem great either according to the biography.

    @clodhopper makes a great argument about sexism. Good to read that.

    Cooke is very scathing of Cookson’s broken promise re women’s racing as well. It will be interesting to see what he makes of it. I’d firmly discourage any women I know from racing bikes for a living, or setting it as a dream. Far better to be a triathlete/duathlete where women and men seem to get equal billing.

    Premier Icon ghostlymachine
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    Where do these people come from?

    “These people” are where most of the problem lies. They are the old guys who run most grass roots races, the old guys who run BC’s volunteer structure, they are the old guys who run for elected and quite often unpaid posts in BC.

    I’d reckon that of the entire “BC” structure in the UK, from go ride/schools stuff, all the way up to the Olympic plan. Less than 1% are actually employed by BC.

    It’s the same across europe, probably not quite as bad as the UK as some (few) of the guys involved until recently are still upset about the old BLRC/RTTC/NCU/BCF shit storm.

    Premier Icon DaRC_L
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    So from the sounds of it, as per the article, Jess having been dropped from the program went back to the Velodrome to pick up her BF’s kit and saw Shane where they then had a ‘discussion’ during which Shane told her to move on and have a baby…
    so basically two people who used to work together met outside of work and had an argument, some bad things were said.

    Premier Icon dragon
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    Two different issues here surely is Sutton sexist, almost certainly. Is Jess Varnish good enough, no.

    I wouldn’t listen to much Nicole Cooke says as she has a massive axe to grind. She better than anyone should know a road race isn’t comparable to a marathon, so the analogy in her article is duff from the outset. Then later she has a go at Brian Cookson, failing to realise he isn’t some dictator at the top of the UCI, he can’t push through everything he wants, that’s not how it works.

    Premier Icon curiousyellow
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    he can’t push through everything he wants, that’s not how it works.

    Well, if the UCI could participate in an industry wide cover up of certain “issues”, then surely championing equal pay and coverage for women is just a question of putting their minds to it? 😛

    Premier Icon dragon
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    if the UCI could participate in an industry wide cover up of certain “issues”

    You what?

    Premier Icon ghostlymachine
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    Armstrong, Verbruggen, McQuaid.

    Premier Icon ghostlymachine
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    And TBH, with Verbruggen and McQuaid in charge, it pretty much was a dictatorship.

    Premier Icon ransos
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    Nicole is a pain to deal with, i know a few people who’ve worked with her. Other than her work ethic and performance, there isn’t much nice they have to say about her. She might be fine off the bike and away from the racing. But when she’s got her bike head on. It’s a different matter.

    I’ve read similar comments about Wiggins, including from his wife. So what?

    Two different issues here surely is Sutton sexist, almost certainly. Is Jess Varnish good enough, no.

    The third issue is should someone who is sexist be making decisions about the women’s track team?

    Premier Icon dragon
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    I’m no fan of Cookson, but to blame him for what went on before is a bit much.

    I don’t think Sutton makes the sole decision on the womens track team, I’m sure it is discussed with others.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
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    Give a has-been a blazer and a clipboard and shit happens.

    Premier Icon ghostlymachine
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    ransos wrote:

    I’ve read similar comments about Wiggins, including from his wife. So what?

    I don’t think i know anyone who has worked with both Wiggins and Cooke, so it wouldn’t really be a worthwhile comparison to make.

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 215 total)

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