Like it or not the membership voted for Corbyn because he offered an approach which they could identify as labour policies and principles

Oh, I absolutely agree with you, Corbyn seemed to represent everything that the Labour party should aspire to.  Especially after the fag end of the Blair/Brown era. Turned out that he wasn’t a good leader though. That’s not anyone’s fault, it’s just the way it is sometimes. He was in way over his ability. End.

And saying that someone is taking the party to court purely to enrich themselves is precisely the kind of defamatory comment that got the party into this mess in the first instance. The leadership became infected with hyperbolic rhetoric for anyone perceived as disloyal – and explaining away opposition and dissent within a broad political movement as rooted in bad faith and self-serving motives.

They reveled in their totally politically-ineffectual troublemaking and voter-repelling ideological purity

Binners you really need to let go of your Derek Hatton obsession. I could introduce you to any number of labour activists who you would dismiss as leftwing nutters who not only put in hundreds of hours of legwork in the last election, but are also the very opposite of what you describe. Their only failing in the past 4 years, which they would admit, was having hope that a radical, green and progressive labour government was possible. They are the people who will put labour back into power, not the sneering and macchiavelian Oxbridge PPE careerists.

Well for a start Starmer could unambiguously condemn the actions of the people who are taking the party to court in order to enrich themselves

You mean repeat the defamation? Why? Why replace the leadership team only to double down on their mistakes?

This should be over and done with now, and forgotten by the time we get to any major election. Those that dug this hole should leave Starmer and his team to fill it in as they see fit, not keep digging. Their focus should be on encouraging Starmer to stick to their left wing policy base, not complain about his methods when he tries to clean up the mess they left the party in.

The party is currently trailing behind the leader in all the polls… he has to act, and act fast, to change that. He’s not going fast enough in my opinion… but the resistance being put up to what he is doing by the outgoing leadership, and those that support them even when it really makes little sense to do so, is baffling, and depressing.

Binners you really need to let go of your Derek Hatton obsession. I could introduce you to any number of labour activists who you would dismiss as leftwing nutters who not only put in hundreds of hours of legwork in the last election, but are also the very opposite of what you describe.

You’ll apparently have more luck arguing with a set of Daily Mail headlines.

Their only failing in the past 4 years, which they would admit, was having hope that a radical, green and progressive labour government was possible. They are the people who will put labour back into power, not the sneering and macchiavelian Oxbridge PPE careerists.

Absolutely agree, but looks like those lot are ‘taking back control’.

Which PPE careerists are the problem here? Personally, I’m pleased that a career politican is no longer at the head of the Labour Party… a life of professional political activism is laudable, but it did not prepare him well for the challenge of leading a major political party, sadly.

For your bit of balance… Johnson’s “career” looks to have made him even less suitable to lead a party, never mind a country.

They are the people who will put labour back into power, not the sneering and macchiavelian Oxbridge PPE careerists.

Third time lucky?

Third time lucky?

It would be first time lucky, because we’ve never actually had a labour party offering a modern, radical, progressive and green vision to solve the problems we face. Many policies of the Corbyn leadership came close, but sadly they fell back on their outdated Bennite instincts when it came to the crunch. As I’ve said many times, they weren’t radical enough. The next generation will be very different, as long as the current leadership doesn’t allow itself to be dragged back in time to follow some outdated managerialist, don’t rock the boat, politics-by-numbers approach as the Blairites would like.

Can we not wait ‘till the “next generation”, please?

Edit: Unless you just mean this generation, rather than the old dinosaurs not going quietly, in which case I share your hope.

Edit: And I like some of those dinosaurs, but they need to let people get on and mend the party, fast, in the eyes of the public.

they weren’t radical enough.

Good luck persuading the electorate to follow you down your radical path…

By radical, I hope he means 21st Century solutions, rather than what looks like 1970s ones.

Supporting distributed green energy initiatives, rather than miners [ gross over simplification ].

they weren’t radical enough.

Given that the electorate consists of racist pensioners who all vote and the under 30’s who largely don’t bother, good luck with that radical green agenda

I don’t know if you noticed but they just elected an Old Etonian Winston Churchill tribute act who was promising a return to a sepia-tinted 1950’s colonial myth?

Good luck persuading the electorate to follow you down your radical path…

Tony Blair, “one of Murdoch’s closest friends”.

What’s your point, caller?

It’s a picture of someone connected to someone else.

Makes you think…

Tony Blair, “one of Murdoch’s closest friends”.

Tony Blair, “one of Murdoch’s closest friends”. “last Labour Leader to win a general election”.

An alternative view.

As I’ve said many times, they weren’t radical enough.

and as many of us have pointed out, and to which you’ve (on countless occassions) agreed. Are never, in a millions years going to happen in this country ever, as for the most part it’s population is centre-right, and look upon such things as UB hell even electric cars, as a terrifying vision of a dystopian soviet style future world.

Anecdote: all the old Brexit and Tory voters I know are bang into solar power, electric car, recycle and reuse everything… there are votes in that there green agenda where you might not expect it… but you have to look very “pro-Britain” to get many of those votes, and there are many ways to do that without going all “anti-immigrant” or “centralise everything in London”… Blair understood that part, and it can’t be ignored (I never voted for him though).

You can sneak in a load of radical green policies without changing much of the status quo. FFS just do what the Tories do & do wtf you want after being elected.

Agree with Kelvin there are loads of votes in green issues especially if couched in make Britain great/green again.

By radical, I hope he means 21st Century solutions, rather than what looks like 1970s ones.

Of course I am. I thought that was clear from my ‘outdated Bennite instincts’ comment. 1970s Bennite socialism was outdated in the 1970s, let alone the 21st century. John McDonnell was the closest to the new breed of libertarian green progressives, but even he struggled to fully jump on board. The likes of Seamus and Len weren’t stuck in the 70s, more like the 1920s.

Supporting distributed green energy initiatives, rather than miners [ gross over simplification ].

Exactly. I remember sometime around 2010 after the tories won the election the northern branch of the TUC organised a march against austerity in Manchester. One of the platform speakers was from the NUM, and spent 20 minutes ranting about how we had all the wealth we needed under the ground and all we needed to do was reopen the pits. It confirmed everything I ever thought about 70s era socialists.

Given that the electorate consists of racist pensioners who all vote and the under 30’s who largely don’t bother, good luck with that radical green agenda

Binners you really depress me sometimes. The reason young people don’t vote is because there isn’t a mainstream party which represents their interests. Your preferred flavour of labour politics is cynical reactionary liberalism, focused only on winning power whilst dismissing ‘idealistic’ causes such as climate change as hippy fantasism. And you wonder why the under-30s don’t vote?

I agree with every word in that post dazh.

And with that… I’m going to stay away from this thread while we agree..

= ;87)

The reason young people don’t vote is because there isn’t a mainstream party which represents their interests.

Nonsense. You vote for the party that is closest to a party that represents what you want and how you think society should be run. No party fully represents my interests so I pick the closest one (Green party in my case). If you can’t decide then at least go against a party that you know really doesn’t represent your interests (tories in my case)
To just put your hands up in the air and don’t bother doing anything is not the fault of the parties it is the fault of the under 30’s who can’t be bothered and not bothering is certainly not going to ever bring about anything that get’s closer to representing them is it.

1+ Dazh

@ others:

If you can’t what I’m saying with that picture, well then, I think that’s called not seeing the forest for the trees?

If you can’t what I’m saying

Can you have a go at saying it?

If you can’t what I’m saying with that picture, well then, I think that’s called not seeing the forest for the trees?

Very ‘Zen’

Thanks for the benefit of your wisdom and insight. I feel we’ve all learned something today

So now that EHRC has found the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyns leadership was institutionally antisemitic, and there were 23 separate incidents of the leader’s office interfering in complaints, I expect we’ll have a statement from Jeremy showing contrition and apologising for it all happening on his watch

In its report, the watchdog found the Labour Party responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act:

– Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints
– Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints
– Harassmenthttps://t.co/OaXTvaP6R2 https://t.co/Qc1grXwB0k

— BBC Politics (@BBCPolitics) October 29, 2020

Oh wait… hang on a minute…. scratch that. What on earth was I thinking?

Instead, we’ll have a statement of denial, absolutely no contrition whatsoever, playing the victim, dodgy conspiracy theories and his supporters taking to social media to deny antisemitism through the novel approach of being even more antisemitic.

I hope Starmer boots him out of the party, just to watch the sixth formers go into meltdown. It would provide the opportunity to draw a line once and for all under his disastrous leadership

While I agree that Corbyn was a disaster for Labour and for the UK, as he helped Boris get this massive majority, there seems to be a lot of anti Zionist people being called racist.

Do you really think Ken Livingstone is a racist?

Its bollox Bionners and you know it. labour did not suddenly become antisemetic under corbyn and antizionism is not anti semitism.

The problem of a few antisemites predates Corbyn. what this was was pure character assassination

Do you really think Ken Livingstone is a racist?

I don’t believe that he is, but some of his comments were idiotic.

Do you really think Ken Livingstone is a racist?

Yes. Obviously. He’s proved it on many occasions.

Its bollox Bionners and you know it. labour did not suddenly become antisemitic under corbyn and antizionism is not antisemitism.

All the evidence suggests it isn’t bollox. I don’t think the EHRC deal in bollox. They deal in evidence. Including listing 23 separate occasions where Jeremy Corbyn’s office interfered in complaints of antisemitism. That sounds like giving the nod for people to express antisemitic sentiments to me. An atmosphere of tacit tolerance to it. Even a cursory glance at social media and the comments aimed at Luciana Berger from the Corbynite left would prove that. It was vile!

Basically, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then it’s….

But there are none so blind as those who still refuse to see

Its bollox Bionners and you know it.

Well, not according to the EHRC

In its report, the watchdog found the party responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act, namely:

Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints
Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints
Harassment
In a statement, it said: “The equality body’s analysis points to a culture within the party which, at best, did not do enough to prevent anti-Semitism and, at worst, could be seen to accept it.”

From the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54730425

At the risk of a little whataboutery here – when is the Conservative report into Islamaphobia due?

Labour are going to make themselves squeaky clean, but still be unelectable.

They’re conservatives, Islamaphobia is a vote winner.

So TJ knows better than the EHRC? Seems plausible.

My statement following the publication of the EHRC report can be read at https://t.co/Qq3rBwt7qI

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) October 29, 2020

Labour are going to make themselves squeaky clean, but still be unelectable.

Without the antisemites they’ll be starting from scratch.

Labour are going to make themselves squeaky clean, but still be unelectable.

The trouble is that the left, by generally having principles, get held to a much higher level of scrutiny and have a much higher bar. Things like “Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints” is hardly blatant racism, whereas we have a PM that literally says racist things on a regular basis. Unfortunately there are enough useful idiots to keep banging the drum, knocking down people who are clearly on the side of good (look at voting records). I hope they enjoy their new Tory MPs and it’s all working out for them.

Subvert everything into a dismissive ad-hominem: racist, AS, sixth former. Social class is at the forefront of the battle lines not apartheid-excusing identity politics.

Luciana Berger has just been interviewed by Emma Barnett on Five Live

It’s well worth listening to if you’re in any doubt about the antisemitism of Corbyn and those around him. It’s not an easy listen. She suffered constant harassment, intimidation, threats of physical violence, which were all brushed under the carpet and ignored by the leader’s office. She was hounded out of the party because she was Jewish.

Nice.

As a labour party member, I hope Starmer kicks the lot of them out of the party. It’s absolutely appalling that it’s come to this. How the **** did the labour party even get itself into this position? Where the leadership of the party was tacitly approving of racism (let’s call it what it is, eh?) and allowing people to be hounded out of the party through threats of violence.

And the person responsible for it is still refusing to apologise

A country that has different apartheid laws for different sections of the population is necessarily racist. By boycotting South Africa were we being racist against the Boers?