given that she is deputy leader does make it a tad awkward

Well its been open season on the deputy leader in the commons for the last 3 years, so surely this is the next logical step.

This kind of thing will stop once the non-believers have all been purged and the party can live in beautiful, irrelevant, ideologically-pure isolation, in permanent opposition.

Won’t that be lovely, comrades?

Ah wicked, another “centrist” echo chamber filled with misrepresentation!

Because from where i’m Looking, you’re now both has bad as each other.

0.06% of Labour members (less than population average) have antisemitic views
60% of Conservative members do not want a Muslim PM

Galaxy brain thinking: Hmm, yes, this is exactly the same

Did you also know that 198% of people on internet forums can pluck figures out of the air to help back their position?

Makes you think…

‘They have. That’s the whole point.’

The people complaining on the Panorama programme wouldn’t even name themselves.

If you think that no one has been provided with “names, dates and evidence” of antisemitism in the Party, then you are defending the indefensible without even bothering to take the time to look into what you are defending.

> waves hands around <

“There is no problem, it’s all just trumped up nonsense pushed by our enemies”

I’m out of this thread ‘till it returns to being about something other than antisemitism.

Yes… both the Leader & his team, and the party system they have ensured they have a strangle hold on, are quite arbitrary about who they discipline and how.

So you are also claiming that the selection of the front bench and general party discipline are the same thing? You dont think there are different standards/controls for each?
Interesting.

No, I’m suggesting that the decisions being made as regards both have now become about protecting Jeremy and his inner bunker rather than working for the wider interests of the party and the country. In addition, others have pointed out how the party disciplinary procedure is now tightly controlled, and I would suggest abused, by the same very tight knit group of people surrounding the Leader.

Ta ta!

I think the worst thing is the disappointment. Usually this forum is full of actual debate, people willing to listen to each other’s point of view. But all the politics threads recently have descended into willful misrepresentation and a complete inability to admit even the slightest sense that a poster might have been wrong.

Did you also know that 198% of people on internet forums can pluck figures out of the air to help back their position?

0.06 was the figure from a Labour spokesperson, quoted in an article in the JC
60% – and here, you’re right, I got the detail wrong – of conservative members think Islam is a threat. It was only just under half who would not accept a Muslim PM.

Anyway, I’m oot. I don’t know what Corbyn has done to binners – maybe he nicked your chips at school – but your crusade against him is getting really boring.

*posts Monty Python memes, complains about other posters being sixth formers*

We’re doing a survey of party members, sir, would you mind answering a few questions?

Certainly.

Firstly, what do you think about Jewish people?

I think we need rid of the dirty, money-grubbing bastards! They’re secretly running the planet you know. Enslaving whole populations to enrich themselves. Oh…. hang on a minute… this is a trick question isn’t it? Actually, I think they’re all lovely.

Thanks. And whats your favourite biscuit?

That stat had nothing to do with surveys of attitudes/views within the membership, it was just a meaningless figure offered up as distraction. Something to do with the percentage of members facing disciplinary action for antisemitism, but I can’t be sure, it was all quite opaque.

I know I should be staying out of this, but such misrepresentation in a post complaining about misrepresentation made me itch.

There is a big difference between members of a party and the general public. Not much you can do about members of the public having racist views and saying racist stuff (within the law) but if they did it in my party they would be straight out. And as leader of the party I would have made sure it was dealt with within a week of it coming to my attention and not ignoring it, blaming other stuff etc,. for 2 years. I would then be in a strong position to dispute the false claims and open them up publicly for examination so people could see they were false.

Really not that difficult.

Now it looks like it might be Steve Bell’s turn:

https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2019/07/steve-bell-guardian-split-worrying.html?fbclid=IwAR24crcsKy-9O5V_7pLF7e2DxvBeS-Wl9SVIw5V0nTVThDg5TWC0uGDo2Ww

Just heard on the radio Labour peers plan an unprecedented no confidence vote on JC…

Baroness Hayter is being interviewed on Radio 4 at the moment. She found out she had been sacked via the Corbynite social media channels (which appear to be the only way he communicates with the world). They announced her sacking without any consultation with her. She has still had no contact at all with Corbyns office.

Corbyns office have been asked for a comment on it but have said that nobody was available.

She’s commented, quite correctly, that if you want to prove that you don’t have a ‘bunker mentality’ its probably best not to shoot the messenger. Again.

Just heard on the radio Labour peers plan an unprecedented no confidence vote on JC…

Doesn’t mean a thing. Even if the MPs had a vote of no confidence (again) the £3 blackshirts would just give him another go. Again.

Doesn’t mean a thing. Even if the MPs had a vote of no confidence (again) the £3 blackshirts would just give him another go. Again.

Only if he wants the job, and I don’t think he does. He’s got the required rule changes to ensure the next leader will be from his wing of the party, he can go any time now with his job done.

I suspect he’s only been staying because of the the people chanting his name and to take the flak for the next incumbent in the (long) run up to an election. Well people have stopped chanting and an election could be just around the corner.

He might be glad of a good excuse to quit.

Not sure where Unite fit into this. They seem keen to keep him on and I don’t really know why.

The trouble with that is that he’ll only be allowed to go if Seamas says he can go.

And Seamas doesn’t look like he’s quite completed his task of making the Labour party completely and utterly unelectable just yet (so very nearly there) as the Tory’s keep making his job harder. Just when he thinks he’s got it done and dusted, up pops Chris Grayling, Andrea Leadsome, Dominic Raab or some other six-toed, born-to-rule pony-****er.

Corbyn does remain his greatest possible asset for the task in hand though, so for the time being I suspect he’ll be going nowhere. Literally and metaphorically

Unelectable. Anyone mentioned that yet I’m not reading another 460 pages to find out.

I think it’s best if you don’t compare your party leader to Hitler. I assume you critics were similarly supportive of Ken Livingstone when he compared a newspaper reporter to a Nazi?

I assume you critics were similarly supportive of Ken Livingstone when he compared a newspaper reporter to a Nazi?

Not sure if I count as a critic but personally I had no problem with that comparison. He was just making the point the newspaper guy was just following orders. I also had no problem with KL’s ‘Hitler was a zionist’ comment. In the context he was talking about it he was correct. Not sure it was wise for a senior politician to mention Nazis at all in public discourse but I didn’t feel the comparisons were wrong. In the journo case KL wasn’t calling the guy a mass murderer, he was calling him an “order follower”.

I know for a fact JC has compared journalists to Vermin, and I think he had a point. Is Vermin better than Nazi? I’m not sure it is.

He was just making the point the newspaper guy was just following orders.

I believe this comment came after the reporter identified himself as Jewish.

I think it’s best if you don’t compare your party leader to Hitler

Maybe try taking the tinfoil helmet off for a bit comrade.

She didn’t accuse him of being some kind of nazi. She accused him and his team of having a bunker mentality, rather than implying any genocidal instincts towards Jews, or owt.

Whats funny is that since sacking her (without actually communicating with her) Corbyns team have been comically efficient in proving her assertion correct. But I suppose when you live in a bunker, its difficult to see even the most obvious….

I think it’s best if you don’t compare your party leader to Hitler.

It does seem supremely arrogant and distasteful, especially seeing as the criticism actually relates specifically to the accusations of antisemitism. It’s not surprising she was fired, really.

Genuine question; how much of the antisemitism row do people think originated from the conflation of (understandable) criticism of the government of Israel with (antisemitic) criticism of Jews in general?

Seems to be an easy way to spread muck, although I completely recognise that stupid/ignorant/racist stuff has been said by stupid/ignorant/racist people.

I believe this comment came after the reporter identified himself as Jewish.

That’s not my recollection and it’s hard to imagine how that conversation would go:

Paparazzi Vermin: Hi, I’m Jewish.

Seems unlikely.

My recollection is the Journo said he was Jewish after he’d been accused of following orders.

Maybe try taking the tinfoil helmet off for a bit comrade.

She didn’t accuse him of being some kind of nazi. She accused him and his team of having a bunker mentality, rather than implying any genocidal instincts towards Jews, or owt.

When it comes to spin, you have much to learn from your hero Alastair Campbell. In actual
fact she compared him to the last days of Hitler. Funny how you missed that reference out.

Now you can get back to stamping your feet.

My recollection is the Journo said he was Jewish after he’d been accused of following orders.

My recollection is that Livingstone carried on with the comparison after he had been told. Which seems antisemitic to me.

Genuine question; how much of the antisemitism row do people think originated from the conflation of (understandable) criticism of the government of Israel with (antisemitic) criticism of Jews in general?

As was mentioned earlier, it’s difficult to see how sending death threats and torrents of abuse to Margaret Hodge and Luciana Berger for no other reason than being Jewish and not being big fans of JC, actually advance the chances of a two state solution.

In actual fact she compared him to the last days of Hitler.

I think the ‘bunker mentality’ reference, rather than any implication of being genocidal, is fairly obvious to all but the professionally offended who are trying to conflate it with something it clearly isn’t, for whatever reason

Genuine question; how much of the antisemitism row do people think originated from the conflation of (understandable) criticism of the government of Israel with (antisemitic) criticism of Jews in general?

None IMHO. All the alleged anti Semitic comments I’ve seen have been nothing to do with Israel or Palestine. Can you think of an example of an anti-semetic comment that has been raised that you think was a misunderstood criticism of the government of Israel?

Taking Rasnos example of Ken Livingstone from above I can’t see any element of criticism of the government of Israel in it. [1]

Calling female MPs ‘Zionist Cum Bags’ isn’t criticism of the government of Israel either.

On a tangent: The LibDems, Torys, Greens and SNP just don’t seem to suffer from this level of name calling. The Tory party is utterly split and they still appear civil to each other. Leaving aside the Anti Semitism claims Labour member just don’t seem to engage in a very high level of discourse. It’s straight to the Ad Hom. Even if you conclude that there is no Anti-Semitism whatsover how is calling each other ‘Cum buckets’ a good idea?

[1] Mind ewe it doesn’t seem anti-semtic to me either.

My recollection is that Livingstone carried on with the comparison after he had been told. Which seems antisemitic to me.

Ok, I can’t be bothered to check so I’ll grant you that instance of Anti Semitism in the Labour party.

I think the ‘bunker mentality’ reference, rather than any implication of being genocidal, is fairly obvious to all but the professionally offended who are trying to conflate it with something it clearly isn’t, for whatever reason

I think your continued insistence on ignoring the reference to Hitler makes it pretty obvious to all that you’re not going to let the facts get in the way of another one of your toddler temper tantrums.

Calling female MPs ‘Zionist Cum Bags’ isn’t criticism of the government of Israel either.

Interesting one that, because as well as being incredibly rude and offensive, it strikes me as anti Zionist rather than antisemitic, per se. Is it possible to be anti Zionist without being antisemitic? Many Jews think so. I’m interested, and on the fence, as I don’t have a dog in the fight. What is obvious is that both sides are using accusations of various forms of racism for political point scoring, which kinda cheapens the whole argument.

On a tangent: The LibDems, Torys, Greens and SNP just don’t seem to suffer from this level of name calling.

Do you reckon that would be the case, particularly for the tories, if the same amount of effort was put into it?
Have you ventured near the telegraph comment boards. Admittedly many of those like Binners will just be whiners unwilling to try and change their party but not all.

I think your continued insistence on ignoring the reference to Hitler makes it pretty obvious to all that you’re not going to let the facts get in the way of another one of your toddler temper tantrums.

Context, dear boy. Context.

So, seeing as I’m clearly missing something here (I’m not very bright), as well as the obvious ‘bunker mentality’ reference, in the context in which she used it, what is she accusing him of?

Feel free to give me the benefit of your superior interpretive powers…

Right wing trouble makers…

BREAKING: Labour staff GMB branch has just passed this motion, effectively saying workers have no confidence in leadership over antisemitism, NDAs and citing a 'mental health crisis' among workers. Huge rift between leadership and staff. https://t.co/yZfbZKnP9J

— Paul Brand (@PaulBrandITV) July 18, 2019

Ok, I can’t be bothered to check so I’ll grant you that instance of Anti Semitism in the Labour party.

How very gracious of you.

More seriously, you were (as most people do) separating criticism of Israel from anti-semitism. Yet the International Remembrance Holocaust Association conflates the two in the guidelines that accompany its definition. The Jerusalem Post reported approvingly that “One can thus authoritatively claim that promoting BDS (boycott, divestment & sanctions), which focuses exclusively on Israel and/or the disputed areas, is antisemitic.”

Context, dear boy. Context.

So, seeing as I’m clearly missing something here (I’m not very bright), as well as the obvious ‘bunker mentality’ reference, in the context in which she used it, what is she accusing him of?

Feel free to give me the benefit of your superior interpretive powers…

First you tell me that the context makes it ok to compare Corbyn to Hitler, then you tell me that you’re missing something.

You’re right that you’re missing something: a scintilla of sincerity.

More seriously, you were (as most people do) separating criticism of Israel from anti-semitism. Yet the International Remembrance Holocaust Association conflates the two in the guidelines that accompany its definition.

And yet the LP were hounded to adopt it in toto.

The Jerusalem post can claim what it likes, but none of the antisemitism claims as regards party members have anything to do with support for BDS.

And try talking about having a bunker mentality without any reference to Downfall…

First you tell me that the context makes it ok to compare Corbyn to Hitler, then you tell me that you’re missing something.

You’re right that you’re missing something: a scintilla of sincerity.

Eh? …. erm…. ok….?

Thanks for clearing that all up for me.

FFS – stay out of it Kelvin.