Especially the centerist parties, the more people who are doing well, the more people subscribe to the neo-liberal consensus.

The slight flaw there is the “centrist” parties lurched ever further rightwards into the dream world of the market is always right and when in doubt hire some consultants. Leaving lots of people wondering why they werent being represented.
Quite a few of whom fell into the laps of UKIP and co blaming the professional politicians of abandoning them. Not completely unreasonably although of course the professional politicians of UKIP were just using them.
The thing the centrists seems to miss is that they arent actually very many who agree with them. It just works for a while when they hijack a party and the older supporters take time to wise up.

Either Brown or Milliband would have thrashed May

Based on their track record of success in general elections?

“centrist” is meaningless now, it’s been so abused. We were told over and over about how the tories are the centre ground during the last election and of course Labour are far extreme loonie left. But when Miliband was leader with his wishy washy one-inch-left-of-the-tories approach, he was “too left wing” and he was “Red Ed” and we all had to be scared of his zombie communist dad. Wherever the tories are, that’s the centre now apparently.

“Based on their track record of success in general elections?”

Yes, based on the fact they both very nearly beat the Tory First team (Cam/Osbourne). If you can nearly beat the Firsts, you can deffo beat the reserve team (May).

Corbyn lost to the Tory reserve team.

outofbreath
Personally, I think the Labour party will fizzle out and either there will be a Lib Dem ressurgance, or a new centerist party will emerge.

Actually disagree.
I think there is a growing mood in the country for the hard left.

Even re-nationalisation is not talked about as an utter impossibility.

Few people have seen the benefits of privatised utilities etc. The nation of share holders was also a myth.

Cornyn may never be PM, his successor is almost guaranteed to be.

By trying to appease their own party with a referendum and the ensuing madness, at the expense of the country, they may well not see themselves in government for over a decade when they do next lose….

“Wherever the tories are, that’s the centre now apparently.”

Well since 1997 both main parties have tried to hold the centre ground because they think that’s where the votes are. So yeah, the Tories have been on the centre ground.

I don’t think you can characterise Milliband as left, he might have appealed to the left of his party but in policy terms he was a conventional centreist liberal remainer.

“Actually disagree.
I think there is a growing mood in the country for the hard left.”

My political predictions are literally always wrong so disagreeing is a very safe bet!

To be honest, my opinion is based on hope as much as anything. 🙁

I’m just deeply saddened by the way society is heading under the Tories.

outofbreath – Member

I don’t think you can characterise Milliband as left,

Read my post, I didn’t. But others did. Remember this?

“The man who hated Britain: Red Ed’s pledge to bring back socialism is a homage to his Marxist father. So what did Miliband Snr really believe in? The answer should disturb everyone who loves this country”

FT: “Ed Miliband’s move to the left lost Labour the election”

outofbreath – Member

So yeah, the Tories have been on the centre ground.

A ludicrious claim. And nicely proves my point.

Labour Is The New Nasty Party Under Jeremy Corbyn – Maajid Nawaz

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/labour-is-the-new-nasty-party-under-jeremy-corbyn/

Labour Is The New Nasty Party Under Jeremy Corbyn – Maajid Nawaz

Yes, of course they are.  You do know what is meant by a nasty party don’t you?

Yes, based on the fact they both very nearly beat the Tory First team (Cam/Osbourne). If you can nearly beat the Firsts, you can deffo beat the reserve team (May).

Corbyn lost to the Tory reserve team.

By the same token, Blaire only narrowly beat the disorganized rabble that was the Tories in 2005, with a lower vote share than Corbyn managed in 2017.

Your analogy doesn’t stand up to a moment’s thought.

I had a labour campaigner on the doorstep the other day – I just said there was no way whilst McDonnell was there – he just turned round and walked away, didn’t even want to discuss it and maybe challange my views. Must have had the same views…

Yes i argued with a tory campaigner said i would rather kill my first borne than vote for them and they walked away without saying a word….Must have had the same views

By all means hate them for whatever reason you like but its very unwise to claim they must have agreed with you just because they chose not to engage. Basically the Labour saw you as the tory RW you are and the tory saw me as the lefty i am . Any other conclusion is deeply flawed
Why do some people have to give up all critical thinking just because if their political affiliations?

FWIW to win corbyn either has to
1) reclaim the centre ground – not going to happen for obvious reasons
2) move the centre ground to him
3) get those who dont vote for him to vote

IMHO appealing to centre voters – or those bizarre confused folk in the middle who will flip flop from party to party based on who has the nicest hair[ just vote liberal] is one of the weaknesses of politics. Its why neither party does very much when in power.

said i would rather kill my first borne than vote for them and they walked away without saying a word….Must have had the same views

Or they just thought you were a nutter.

Blaire (sic) only narrowly beat the disorganized rabble that was the Tories in 2005, with a lower vote share than Corbyn managed in 2017.

Yes, Blair, mortally wounded by Iraq narrowly beat the Tories, mortally wounded by being a disorganized rabble. Two third rate teams and a close result. Entirely consistent with my analogy. May is the reserve team, she narrowly beat Labour/Momentum.

LOL@:

those bizarre confused folk in the middle who will flip flop

in the same post as:

Why do some people have to give up all critical thinking just because if their political affiliations?

FWIW to win corbyn either has to

Or 4) demonstrate that Corbynomics will work. Nobody in their right mind is going to vote not to have a money tree, if one is on offer. The problem is very few people believe in the money tree.

I guess one problem with that is that if Corbyn could demonstrate Corbynomics works then every country in the world would be doing it. And, of course it, would immedately become the policy of all UK parties as well.

The truth is Keynsian stimulus isn’t quite the panacea Momentum claim it is, and this is well understood by every government in the world, all the UK political parties and almost everyone in the PLP.

Seeing as we are going for deep explanations of views we disagree with LOL

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px; background-color: #eeeeee;”>Or 4) demonstrate that Corbynomics will work. Nobody in their right mind is going to vote not to have a money tree, if one is on offer. The problem is very few people believe in the money tree.</span>

The PM does…

The PM does…

She doesn’t. She’s just spending cash. She’s not claiming it’s will grow the economy in such a way as to offset itself IYSWIM. (…and if she was wouldn’t that mean there was cross party agreement on Corbynomics, in which case what’s the point in Corbynomics?)

Yes, Blair, mortally wounded by Iraq narrowly beat the Tories, mortally wounded by being a disorganized rabble. Two third rate teams and a close result. Entirely consistent with my analogy. May is the reserve team, she narrowly beat Labour/Momentum.

Labour hasn’t had a convincing victory since 2001. 2010 and 2015 weren’t close if you look at the numbers. You can try to keep explaining it away if you like, but the fact is that New Labour as a convincing proposition died a very long time ago. As a radical idea, why not try representing the needs of ordinary people?

Anti Semitic, Marxist, terrorist lover, Venezuela, blah, blah, blah. You Tory boys are are really bricking it aren’t you

This!

Its why none of the spineless pretenders willl actually make a move, despite knowing that the Maybot is a dead man walking and totally powerless, leaving the country in a weird Brexit limbo

They want her to go down in flames and lose the next election first

Nobody wants ‘handed the keys to number ten to a ‘Marxist’ on their CV. And they all know full well that if there were an election tomorrow, with the NHS in its present turmoil, they’d lose it by a mile. Theresa can take that one for the team. She’s stupid/stubborn enough

Hence the upsurge in Boris’s nauseatingly opportunistic posturing, and the freelance/make it up as you go along nature of all ministers, but not a sniff of an actual leadership bid.

But they’re all so detached from reality in the Westminster bubble that they don’t even realise how unsavoury this treacherous self-serving opportunism looks to the electorate, and how much more likely a Corbyn victory is.

What a bunch of self-absorbed shysters!! The sooner they get whats coming to them, the better

Basically the Labour saw you as the tory RW you are and the tory saw me as the lefty i am . Any other conclusion is deeply flawed

All I said was no way would I vote for them whilst McDonnell was there – I’ve heard life-long labour supporters on the radio saying that they wouldn’t vote for labour again whilst Corbyn was there. My reply did not necessarily indicate my political leanings at all, unlike your first born one, which just labelled you as a nutter.

You do know what is meant by a nasty party don’t you?

please provide with a link to the dictionary definition, I would be interested.

They want her to go down in flames and lose the next election first

This. The tories are now planning for the election after next. They calculate that they’ll be able to pin whatever happens post-brexit on Corbyn and the labour party, which will position them for another 10+ years in govt following the brief labour hiatus. Plus they can all go and get rich by calling in those favours built up over the past 10 years without the scrutiny of having to abide by the ministerial code.

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px; line-height: 15.36px;”>The tories are now planning for the election after next.</span>

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 12.8px; font-style: italic; line-height: 15.36px;”>They want her to go down in flames and lose the next election first</span>

No. If the plan involved tactically losing the next election with May as leader they could call it now, and give Labour the responsibility for all the deeply unpopular actions in the pipeline.

Their plan is the obvious one: Soldier on leaving May in place to take all the blame coming the governments way. Jettison her just before the next election in 4 or so years time in the hope the new candidate will be untouched by the unpopular actions.

The drawbacks of this are: 1) Who would the new leader be? Not long to find one. 2) The timing of the next election is not totally in the hands of the Tories. For a government in this position to last 5 years would be something of a miracle. 3) Losing the election might not be as simple as some might think Corbyn/Momentum are not good news for Labour’s electability .

Whatever happens leaving May in place to lose the next election has no advantages at all unless the election happens v. v. soon.

So Jezza is a Russian spy. Who knew? Apparently he told a Czech diplomat in the 80s that he didn’t much like Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. Has there ever been a more revealing piece of investigative journalism as this?

So you’re saying he was only a  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellow_traveller ?

Or perhaps he was just a https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

imagine all those useful gems from the labour back benches and fringe meetings   “tony’s current favourite brand of pipe tobacco”  or who do we like “Kaufman or Kinnock”

Has there ever been a more revealing piece of investigative journalism as this?

Have to feel a bit sorry for the sun journalists. After Boris great speech went so well clearly they decided its time to launch an attack on Corbyn and looking through the previous rejects this was all they could find.

imagine all those useful gems from the labour back benches and fringe meetings   “tony’s current favourite brand of pipe tobacco”

I suspect the KGB already knew Agent Boot’s preference 😉

Yes, we should keep tabs on Russian involvement in domestic politics

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/04/brexit-ministers-spy-russia-uk-brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/10/russian-influence-brexit-vote-detailed-us-senate-report

ah the sorry tale of agent boot from another of the dirty diggers fish wrappers

I’d assumed he’d retired to his allotment for good. Perhaps his press team leaked it just to remind people he’s still alive. You’d never know it otherwise.

To quote Andrew Rawnsley in Sundays Observer “We have a government that can’t govern and an opposition that won’t oppose”

Very! I can’t be the only one who’s getting pretty ****ed off with the total uselessness of the Labour Party and its ‘constructive ambiguity’ which seems to actually entail sitting back and doing absolutely **** all and just congratulating itself for not getting completely toned at the last election. Apparently thats what classes as a great moral victory. Brilliant!

Its a good job theres nowt important going on that might require an effective opposition, eh?

Come on Binners, the govt have been defeated on numerous amendments to the EU withdrawal bill. How much more opposition do you want? Corbyn has wisely remained in the background on these issues because he knows that if he were to lead it tory remainers would fall back into line behind May. Labour are playing the long game on brexit. They don’t need to declare a position, far better for them to quietly support remain amendments and let the tories tear themselves apart. I fully expect that when it comes down to it, the labour leadership will follow the wishes of the vast majority of their MPs, their members, and their voters in supporting a soft brexit.

I fully expect that when it comes down to it, the labour leadership will follow the wishes of the vast majority of their MPs, their members, and their voters in supporting a soft brexit.

I wish I could share your optimism. Unfortunately I can’t see any evidence whatsoever for that being the case. When has Jezza ever followed anyones wishes?

Remember; Jezza and McDonnell have both been vehemently anti-EU for their entire political careers, and whipped he his MP’s to vote for triggering Article 50, and since then the position of the labour leadership has been… well… who knows? I certainly haven’t got a clue

I can see them being misguided enough to believe they can create some socialist utopia far easier outside the EU, so for all the wrong reasons being quite happy with the present Tory route to a hard Brexit

 whipped his MP’s to vote for triggering Article 50

Worryingly that’s the last input that i recall from Jezza on the whole EU subject.

The time for their stated ‘constructive ambiguity’ is long gone. It was over the day after the election. Now the Labour party has to get off the bloody fence and say what it wants from Brexit

Unfortunately I can see Jezzas position, for very different reasons, ultimately being pretty much the same as Boris and chums. Hence being happy to sit back and let them get on with it.

The only person talking any sense in the labour Party at the moment is Yvette Cooper, but as Jezzas supporters will no doubt delight in pointing out, she was roundly defeated by the chosen one, so we can discount her ‘Blairite’ opinions

IIRC, The Absolute Boy is still coming third in the two horse “who would make the best PM” polls.

And, on polls, how Labour aren’t off in the distance with a lead given what they’re up against…

Jezza is instinctively anti-EU

Corbyn has wisely remained in the background on these issues because he knows that if he were to lead it tory remainers would fall back into line behind May

He is remaining in the background as he and McDonnell want a hard brexit but if he comes out and makes that plain the labour level of support will drop significantly – there was an article in the papers the other day that reckoned it would drop from something like 43% to 30% if people thought he was for a hard brexit (or maybe that was figures for the young vote).

Ah the Jezza is anti EU must be the reason for everything blah blah blah while sweet old TM is pro EU and delivering a dogs breakfast brexit…

Perhaps he knows that a hard brexit is unacceptable to most people and has therefore decided not to pursue one ie delivering what people want.