its lets get a shedload of debt day!

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  • its lets get a shedload of debt day!
  • peterfile
    Member

    No I haven’t missed your point at all. I understand it perfectly and I have some sympathy for it, however you do appear to be missing the point that I’m making which is if you expect state funding from one system to be repaid (by whatever means you choose), then it stands to reason that state funding in other systems should also be repaid.

    But don’t we as a society treat higher education as a choice? It’s for self improvement, not a primary need.

    Whereas income related benefits and healthcare are primary needs, so don’t fall into the same category? The money/care received is to fulfil some basic needs, not wants.

    If what you’re suggesting is that higher education should be a state funded right (which I think you are), then i’d agree with you, but in reality it just wouldn’t be feasible (on the basis that the gates would have to be opened too wide), so my proposal was simply an attempt at drawing the line somewhere that seemed vaguely logical.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    but graduates end up paying more tax than non graduates, due to their higher salaries(even acounting for those naer-do-wel arts students ;-)……

    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/do-graduates-earn-100000-more-than-non-graduates

    gonefishin
    Member

    If what you’re suggesting is that higher education should be a state funded right (which I think you are),

    Largely yes, but not a universal right. You get it if you earn it, like the system that was in place in the early ’90s.

    mefty
    Member

    The government will still be paying a substantial portion of university costs much of the debt will be written off.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    I should add that my position is that Higher education should be taxpayer funded with no repayments. What I do not think is that it should be universal, rather it should only be open to those who have earned it.

    Have to say I agree, but only for subjects that bring a direct benefit back to society as a whole eg Medicine, Dentistry, Engineering, Architecture, Teaching etc

    All the media studies nonsense can fund itself if they can find anyone daft enough to pay for it…..

    b r
    Member

    No. Try reading it again. I’m saying only those on a huge salary will have paid it off; those on £21k will not have paid it off.

    I have, you were ambiguous – but I guess that your idea of a huge salary is somewhere between £21k and what I’d call a huge salary.

    According to a quick search over 40% of the loans will never be paid off – sounds a bit pointless going to Uni if you’ll barely earn more than minimum wage.

    And the more I think about it, I was earning that back in the late 80’s as a pretty lowly Programmer…

    If they put me in charge I’d reduce the university places by about 70%, no fees, grants for students from low income families, and direct the less academic 70% into vocational courses and apprenticeships. The current situation is terrible for social mobility or ensuring the brightest students are on the right courses and brilliant for producing tons of mediocre graduates with no relevant training to join the workforce, who then end up on the dole or in a call centre if they’re lucky.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    According to a quick search over 40% of the loans will never be paid off – sounds a bit pointless going to Uni if you’ll barely earn more than minimum wage.

    Are you not familiar with the basic concept of capitalism. You are sold a dream, marketed to you you as ‘aspiration’ which you must joyously display at all times, parroting it like a mantra. In return for this you will be delivered, post graduation into a consumer utopia of nice houses, expensive cars and frequent foreign holidays, as if they were your birthright.

    They don’t shout the statistics proving that, for the vast majority, this has absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever. But you can’t mention that. Because then the whole elaborate media driven sham falls apart. SSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    littlemisspanda – you question current average grad starting salaries, well finance and IT must bring the average up a bit. You’ve been working for a while? Average would have been less back then and it seems where you work pays less than average anyway. Your degree seems to have been less demanding than many so possibly all fair

    I’ve been working 9 years now. One of those years I spent doing a postgrad because I couldn’t get anywhere with my first degree, because it was largely irrelevant to employers. And I do, incidentally, work in IT these days. I have worked for 3 IT companies and not one of them paid £25k to a new graduate outside of London.

    You do get a lot of graduate jobs quoting “£40k OTE” which are usually for sales roles where the base salary is low, but there are commissions/bonuses to be had if you happen to be good at sales/recruitment etc. I suspect these inflate the market, as these are advertised quite a lot on job boards in the Graduate/Entry Level sections.

    Are you not familiar with the basic concept of capitalism. You are sold a dream, marketed to you you as ‘aspiration’ which you must joyously display at all times, parroting it like a mantra. In return for this you will be delivered, post graduation into a consumer utopia of nice houses, expensive cars and frequent foreign holidays, as if they were your birthright.

    They don’t shout the statistics proving that that this has absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever. But you can’t mention that. Because then the whole elaborate media driven sham falls apart. SSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    I think I love binners.

    mudshark
    Member

    Just had a look and see IBM say they pay £30k which is pretty impressive. Logica seem to pay up to £26k, would have thought they were average sort of payers. What are your skills?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    IBM have an intensive selection procedure, I’d have thought they were paying top whack to be honest.

    ianpv
    Member

    Two points.

    re: all institutions charging full whack – £9K. Universities are pretty much a form of positional goods – they have reputations, in that some are better than others. If a university doesn’t charge full price, they’re basically admitting that they are not top flight, and none of them (even the rubbish ones) are prepared to do it. That the govt. didn’t realise this does not reflect well on the policy.

    re: universities making loads of money – you do all realise that the introduction of tuition fees made virtually no difference to net income, don’t you? For each £3K a year they charge, central govt. funding was cut by £3K. Student expectations are through the roof (for good reason), but universities have no (extra) money to improve the service they provide. That is why top flight universities want to charge more to give a genuinely excellent student experience; it’s not like the staff get paid more if they charge more.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I think it’s crucial that universities all charge the same. Otherwise you’ll get good people who should be at good universities going to worse ones to save money, like you do in the US. This means richer people get better education, wich is dead wrong.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    I think you’ve inadvertently stumbled across official government policy there Molls. Why not model the university system on the school system that directly preceded it, and make wealth-based educational apartheid in this country complete?

    They’re almost there already. The £9k cap won’t last until the next election. Not a chance. Then it’ll be an official free-for-all free market, where the rich get to buy and insure their children’s futures at the expense of everyone else

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    That’ll make me far more sad than the introduction of fees 🙁

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    I have, you were ambiguous – but I guess that your idea of a huge salary is somewhere between £21k and what I’d call a huge salary.

    I used the term huge salary, because I was vague on the numbers, but IIRC what was needed to clear the loan within the 30 years was £47k. Anyone earning less than that will not pay it off.

    And, yes, £47k is a huge salary for most people.

    According to a quick search over 40% of the loans will never be paid off – sounds a bit pointless going to Uni if you’ll barely earn more than minimum wage.

    Assuming your 40% is correct, more then 60% of graduates will earn £47k or more, which is way more than the current median wage.

    Minimum wage is currently £6.19 per hour. At 37hpw and assume paid holidays, that’s just under £12k per year.

    gonefishin
    Member

    Assuming your 40% is correct, more then 60% of graduates will earn £47k or more, which is way more than the current median wage

    …which is taxed accordingly so they would be paying way more in income tax and NI than anyone earning the median salary. Doesn’t seem necessary to effectively tax them twice just because they chose to go to university.

    plyphon
    Member

    For reference I studied an arts degree (Graphic Design) and my first job was £20k salary, I got offered the job the same day I received my results.

    I appreciate my situation isn’t the norm and I know a lot of graduates from all sorts of degrees (science, arts, engineering, etc) who are working in retail stores or elsewhere.

    My Arts degree seems to have paid off, however I wish there were more people with Engineering degrees – that way us with the Arts degrees would be more in demand and thus paid more!

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    …which is taxed accordingly so they would be paying way more in income tax and NI than anyone earning the median salary. Doesn’t seem necessary to effectively tax them twice just because they chose to go to university.

    They’re being “taxed” the same number of times as any graduate, just at a different rate…

    They’ll also pay back less overall on their student loan than someone earning less…

    Just had a look and see IBM say they pay £30k which is pretty impressive. Logica seem to pay up to £26k, would have thought they were average sort of payers. What are your skills?

    I’m a project manager now. No complaints about my earnings these days, took me time to get where I am. A degree definitely wasn’t a help in getting there.

    Had I been oriented towards programming, coding etc, then I’d be earning much more, but that’s not at all my skill set. My younger brother will be sorted, he can go programme for IBM and earn £30k – sure my dad will be more than happy to suggest it and ensure he moves out 😀

    gonefishin
    Member

    Which is why I included the word effectively.

    I’m perfectly happy with

    …which is taxed accordingly so they would be paying way more in income tax and NI than anyone earning the median salary. Doesn’t seem necessary to tax them at an even higher rate just because they chose to go to university.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Doesn’t seem necessary to tax them at an even higher rate just because they chose to go to university.

    They’re not taxed at a higher rate because they’re graduates, they’re taxed at that rate because they earn a lot.

    gonefishin
    Member

    They’re not taxed at a higher rate because they’re graduates, they’re taxed at that rate because they earn a lot.

    they are if in addition to the normal tax rate, they have to pay back a loan to the government that had to be taken out to cover the university fees in the first place.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    IBM have an intensive selection procedure, I’d have thought they were paying top whack to be honest.

    Depends how popular they are, market forces etc.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    they are if in addition to the normal tax rate, they have to pay back a loan to the government that had to be taken out to cover the university fees in the first place.

    People earning less and so paying lower rate income tax will also be paying this back…

    That graduates will earn more, on average, than non-graduates and so pay more in tax was always an argument against the introduction of tuition fees. I fully agreed with this.

    Are you suggesting that there should be tax relief on student loan repayments? Or that there should be a cap on the maximum monthly repayment? Or against progressive taxation altogether?

    gonefishin
    Member

    I’ve posted enough on this thread for you to realise what I think.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Clearly not, but I’m more than happy to leave it here 🙂

    gonefishin
    Member

    I should add that my position is that Higher education should be taxpayer funded with no repayments. What I do not think is that it should be universal, rather it should only be open to those who have earned it.

    Can you figure it out from this?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    molgrips – Member

    So, is there an argument for a quota system of grants? So, all engineers, scientists, doctors, nurses, etc get a free ride; then other degrees get a limited number of free grants depending on the value to society of the degree?

    There is an element of this up here- our funding model’s quite different to England. Some courses get specific additional funding (mostly STEM stuff) so more funded places are available. It’s also a consideration when allocating funded places to institutions in the first place (frexample we have some courses we could fill several times over, if more funded places were available, but they’re not courses that are as high a priority)

    It sorta kinda works, though to be fair the prioritisation isn’t always right- no surprise. There’s some downsides though (free education for all scottish kids- yay! Less places for scottish kids though. Alternatively, english kids can pay and have no quota cap. A bit weird. Northern Ireland is where it meets in the middle and all goes tits up.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Can you figure it out from this?

    You assume that I could remember exactly what was said by each person in every post that they made in the thread. Had a quick scan through and spotted that, which made your position clear.

    I absolutely agree that the fact an (average) graduate will earn more, and therefore (probably) pay more tax* is a perfectly valid argument for fees never having been charged in the first place.

    Unfortunately, this argument was lost and fees are here, as are repayments, and this was the context for my comments. I suspect we’re actually on the same “side” on this.

    *I was at uni with some people who went on to very high-risk, borderline dodgy, banking practices which probably helped contribute the the current financial situation, but we’ll gloss over that 😉

    Free education for scottish kids omg how does that work 😉
    Sad to see how narrow peoples view of benefit to society is on here. Or how the education of others may benefit them.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Sad to see how narrow peoples view of benefit to society is on here. Or how the education of others may benefit them.

    I went to Durham, so most of my peers went into finance/accounting or law. I think that’s probably net drain on society 😉

    b r
    Member

    That graduates will earn more, on average, than non-graduates and so pay more in tax was always an argument against the introduction of tuition fees. I fully agreed with this.

    Presumably though this is based on the past, when there were far less graduates and consequently a degree had higher value?

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Has anyone else had someone called Andrew Roberts email them to tell them how wrong their point of view is (as posted on this thread)?

    If he’s emailing everyone on the internet, who disagrees with his point of view, he’s going to be a very busy boy and possibly ought to seek some professional help…..

    Premier Icon just5minutes
    Subscriber

    one angle not covered so far is the scope for cutting fees without compromising on the quality of degrees.

    Most / all of the “established” universities have made few if any efforts to transform their cost base or their operating model – they are still stuck on fixed 3-4 year degrees with many buildings idle in the evenings and holidays.

    A more commercial approach could see them reduce their estate and working the buildings more intensively thus shortening degree lengths (to 18 months or 2 years excluding the lab / medical based degrees).

    This would not only enable the fixed costs per degree student to be reduced but would also save students a significant sum on living and accommodation expenses as well.

    Unsurprisingly, most of our universities aren’t interested in modernising their operating models or responding to the desire from their students / customers for shorter courses so it’s actually the newer private universities and likes of BLP who are driving this agenda.

    Oh, and the nonsense about the students loan company is just that – it’s simply the sale of a loan book whereby the treasury will convert a long term liability (default on loans) into an asset.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Presumably though this is based on the past, when there were far less graduates and consequently a degree had higher value?

    Yep, that’s one of the counter arguments, and one of the reasons fees were introduced. Though, it could be argued that a more educated workforce will create value.

    peterfile
    Member

    I went to Durham, so most of my peers went into finance/accounting or law. I think that’s probably net drain on society

    Net drain? You’d need 4 “normal” people to contribute the same amount of tax as one of those 😉

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Yep, that’s one of the counter arguments, and one of the reasons fees were introduced. Though, it could be argued that a more educated workforce will create value.

    IIRC the drive was based on an ‘arbitrary’ figure of wanting to have 50% of young people degree educated rather than working out the possible cost / benefit over people’s lifetimes etc….

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Net drain? You’d need 4 “normal” people to contribute the same amount of tax as one of those

    I’m not sure that they pay tax, do they?

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