Where would footballers such as John Terry fall into the class system? Richer than most, less educated than most….

geetee1972 – Member

You become middle class when you realise that education is the magic bullet and create an environment in which education is valued and encouraged.

I would very strongly disagree. In my last job I worked in what we call wider access- that is, encouraging first-generation students, from families that have never had a member in fe previously. And while some do undervalue education, it’s not a key consideration.

There are strong barriers to entry for working class kids. Probably the most significant is just the lack of a roadmap- if your family and friends didn’t go to uni, you’re less likely to consider it in the first place, and you have less places to turn to for advice.

Meanwhile as you go up the scale, you reach the point where going into HE is commonplace, and therefore it becomes normalised- people are more likely to have relevant experiences to support you, nobody says “Why are you going to uni” or “Why don’t you get a job”. Speak to a B or C1 class kid and you hear much less “Will I go to uni/college” and much more “what will I do when I go to uni/college”

Also, I don’t think anyone doubts that the debt aspect is also a massive deterrant for lower income families, and families with less history of long-term managed debt. Meanwhile for middle class families, it’s much less intimidating.

And lastly, there’s often an impact in the quality of education- it’s a hard fact that low income areas produce less high achieving school pupils. It’s easier for a kid in a good area and good school surrounded by good kids to get 3 As than it is for a kid in a sink estate.

In short- it’s not just a case of desire. The job of getting a child into HE is far harder for some than others.

What worries me now is the way society has changed, in becoming more polarised, that even with the best will on the world, the opportunities you and I enjoyed are being firmly denied to the generations below us. Social mobility is going backwards in this country. As all the stats beat out. And I can only see that getting far far worse in the future.

+1

My mum mentioned this recently, that her generation had it best as far as she can see. She was born just before WW2. So full life of NHS, decent education (Grammer School both her and Dad), house paid by inflation and final-salary pensions that have been paying out nearly 20 years now.

Northwind, excellent post. You’ve made the argument I was trying to make. This is exactly what I had in my mind, I just worded it in a clumsy and inflammatory way.

Probably the most significant is just the lack of a roadmap

Yes! Absolutely. But the lack of a road map is only a barrier, not an immovable obstacle; it can be overcome and it’s the working class families that go out of their way to ‘normalise’ education and HE in particular that enable social mobility in their children.

The issue of familiarity and comfort with debt is the one part of your argument that I don’t think my argument has an answer for. That said, the decision is an internal locus of control issue, not an external one. You have a choice to make and you can chose to let it be a barrier or you can chose to take to take on the debt. The government has made it very clear that you won’t pay a penny until your earnings are above a certain level so what have you got to lose?

I think the social mobility issue is extremely complicated and one that does not lend itself to simple headlines (however much the OECD likes to pretend). For large parts of society, there are tremendous opportunities for all kinds of mobility and most work places are far more diverse (IMO) than parents and grandparents generations were. My older son started at Uni recently and shares with guys from very different backgrounds (school, social, race, nationality) and benefits from it. His peers are far more heterogenous that those I went to Uni with. Plus opportunities to travel, study and work overseas are greater and information and access made easier via the web etc.

But there is also segments of society that are missing out on all of this completely, and for for well documented reasons. For them mobility is becoming a more distant dream and exclusion, deprivation and the obvious consequences of these factors becoming more obvious. Just to add a little spark to the tinder, I will suggest that the reform (sic) of UK education when I was young has to bear a significant responsibility followed by individual parents. Pity that it’s the young that then suffer the consequences.

b r – Member

I still can’t see how tuition fees are impacting inflation if (next to) no one is yet paying them back – anyone care to elaborate?

what he said.

especially when you consider that the monthly repayments are/will be £50/month less under the new system…

geetee1972 – Member

You have a choice to make and you can chose to let it be a barrier or you can chose to take to take on the debt.

This is true, but that choice will be heavily influenced by your own experiences and those of friends and family. Attitudes to debt and money are very deeply inscribed. It’s a given that increasing student debt reduces working class applications more than it does middle class applications.

Up here, we still have full fee funding for students, and I think once the figures settle down we’re going to see a dramatic difference between the scottish and RUK figures on this.

geetee1972 – Member

it’s the working class families that go out of their way to ‘normalise’ education and HE in particular that enable social mobility in their children.

Here I’m getting into my own opinion… Certainly that plays a part, but the majority of the applicants I dealt with had little or no parental support. To be fair, my sample’s probably skewed, and in any case is too small to be too dependable. But it seems that school support- whether it’s exceptional teachers, or just better access to the resources that were available- makes a more consistent difference. All these kids were stupendous badasses as well, to be fair, most credit is to them.

It was a frustration for us that we had a lot of support we could give, but that dpeople on’t know about it. Meanwhile, ironically, your upper-middle class kids almost instinctively home in on the bursaries and grants and financial opportunities.

b r – Member

I still can’t see how tuition fees are impacting inflation if (next to) no one is yet paying them back – anyone care to elaborate?

PS, I have absolutely no idea. Not all students are taking the loans, mind, but I wouldn’t have thought that would have a national impact on this scale.

Hmm. £30k debits for what the government reckons is a £100k extra over a working life. Well Warren Buffet wouldn’t invest at that rate of return and I’m not sure I would either.

Meanwhile our company is paying £17k pa plus paying for an HND. And if your good they’ll pay for degrees too – I got my second degree while working for the company. That’s a big swing £24k a year.

The way forward (in things like engineering anyway) will be to get companies to pay.

If of course you want to go to university for the experience then perhaps paying your fees is the way to go.

As Northwind has alluded to, one of the biggest barriers of getting into a so-called ‘top university’ is grades. If a kid needs 360 points they aren’t going to get in unless they get 360 points, and chances are they aren’t going to get 360 points if they’re at a poor school.

The degree i lead has just had its entry tariff increased to 320 points (despite my and colleagues protests) which mean we’ve just excluded a whole host of school leavers who once would have come to us from ‘working class’ areas which poor schools when out points were at 280 two years ago. Our experience is that those kids are great to teach, work hard, and often out perform students from more affluent backgrounds. Thankfully we’re bringing in an access stream which will allow us to accept more kids with lower grades from school we have links with.

I used inverted commas above because the idea that teaching quality is always higher at red bricks/Russell Group universities is rubbish. Also, students don’t go to universities, they do a degree in a department at a university. There is a huge variation in teaching and research quality within universities that is hidden by an institutions overall reputation. You get a good degree by the effort you put in, not because you went to a particular university.

or, someone earning an average salary (£26k) will pay back £500 per year, for 30 years.

that’s £15k.

not a bad way to repay a ‘debt’ of £60k…

or, someone earning an average salary (£26k) will pay back £500 per year, for 30 years.

that’s £15k.

not a bad way to repay a ‘debt’ of £60k…

Let’s be honest though, if you end up earning £26K [equiv] you’d probably have been better off going straight to work rather than uni

You get a good degree by the effort you put in, not because you went to a particular university.

I understand you point capt, but if that really is true than the future of Unis in a £30k+pa environment will not be a healthy one. Perhaps this will be a fitting epitaph in several years time.

Let’s be honest though, if you end up earning £26K [equiv] you’d probably have been better off going straight to work rather than uni

Which is the point I was trying to make on P1 (not a troll btw). Education is great but why are we trying to force everyone into the uni route and the ‘you must have a degree’ mindset when graduate jobs now command similar levels of salary as those following a more vocation/job based route?

We see fresh out of uni grads expecting to earn the same or more than people with 10 years experience, not only is that never going to happen, it’s unaffordable.

EDIT: if we do reduce the number of uni places by a sizeable chunk then perhaps we could return to grant funded degrees?

Let’s be honest though, if you end up earning £26K [equiv] you’d probably have been better off going straight to work rather than uni

nurses, engineers, teachers, etc.

all need degrees, but none are exactly a fast track to a high income.

thankfully, not everyone is entirely motivated by profit…

If you’re paying back 50 quid a month earning 26k then that sounds like a good deal! But I’d hazard a guess that most graduates aren’t going to be on anything remotely approaching 26k a year. And some may never hit that point. At what income level so repayments start?

When I left school I did a 4 year apprenticeship and got a trade, before then going on to university, but looking at what now classes as an apprenticeship, it’s unrecognisable. But vocational training is essential to our economy, yet not many companies seem to place any value on providing them

thankfully, not everyone is entirely motivated by profit…

Indeed, but it was you that started doing the maths on the financial benefit of it, not me

😆

The bottom line is that politics is a farce, all it does is create a front so that when we find out that we’ve been ripped off! we as dumb animals then get annoyed at the government and replace them with another corrupt government.

The problem isn’t that there’s not enough to go round, the real problem is that by controlling the wealth you control the population. We don’t need to make cutbacks which is all austerity measures are before we make absolutely sure that our affairs are being run as efficiently as possible. The problem with our affairs being run efficiently is that there is less potential for ripping us off! so obviously it will not be popular with the rich.

Also the main problem in our culture is the banksters and other rip off merchants like energy companies, until we have a government who will actively go after the banks and the rest of the scum we will continue to live in a global shitemare!

Gordon Brown mentioned something about going after the banks and then the media did a very nice hatched job on him, not surprising when you consider who owns the media! If our situation is to improve first we need to gain control back of our own finances and lives.

Leaving the country and Europe under the control of the rich and powerful will simply lead to more hardship or perhaps even civil war!

No need for hob nobs – I have a nice glass of red to hand…

As you may guess by the wine drinking affectation, I would probably be classified as “middle class”. I am finding this debate fascinating as I am looking ahead to when my kids get to uni age and wondering what I will tell them?

With what is happening to the cost of FE and also what is happening in the job market I can see me making a case for them to skip Uni and go straight into the job market. But being middle class, I have real issues with them not going to uni. Pure snobbery on my part, but there it is. I have 5 years to figure it out before I need to have the conversation for the first time…

Please – carry on. I’m learning stuff here…

The Fopster – Member

I have 5 years to figure it out before I need to have the conversation for the first time…

It’s anybody’s guess what the funding situation will be like then tbh. I’d like to think it’ll improve but no optimism. Job market no more certain obviously.

Not too late to move to Scotland though!

The government has made it very clear that you won’t pay a penny until your earnings are above a certain level so what have you got to lose?

Governments have made lots of promises in the past that get broken by later ones.

Move to Scotland? Don’t be daft – there are dragons up there. And nowhere decent to ride a bike. No sir – its Milton Keynes for me!

Gordon Brown mentioned something about going after the banks and then the media did a very nice hatched job on him, not surprising when you consider who owns the media!

Who is that then?

Hey Kaesae, what about those frames?

(by the way, it is ‘hatchet’, not ‘hatched’ Even you couldn’t claim they made him appear from an egg)

jota180 – Member

Indeed, but it was you that started doing the maths on the financial benefit of it, not me

my point is this;

the idea that there is some kind of ‘class’ divide, between those who can afford university, and those who can’t, is wrong.

or at least, if there is a divide, then it’s smaller now than it was.

b r – Member
My mum mentioned this recently, that her generation had it best as far as she can see. She was born just before WW2. So full life of NHS, decent education (Grammer School both her and Dad), house paid by inflation and final-salary pensions that have been paying out nearly 20 years now.

Mine also.
Both my parents came from slightly blurred working class backgrounds, father was the son of a GPO drone in London, he went on to be a professor of geology.
My mother was the daughter of a market gardener in Huddersfield, she also went to Uni & became a head teacher.
Both my sister & I have done OK but have had less chance to fix our lives so early as our parents.

Has anyone mentioned the maintenance loan (£5.5k) students have on top of a loan for fees?

There is also a grant that can be applied for.

And some universities offer bursaries.

Oh, and some offer scholarships.

That is upto five sets of forms to fill in – another hurdle for kids to tackle.

Has anyone mentioned the maintenance loan (£5.5k) students have on top of a loan for fees?

Has anyone mentioned the fact that the maintenance loan comes nowhere near covering living costs?

i don’t know…

rent in a student house in ‘anywhere other than london’ will be £50/week

that’s £2000 for the year.

leaving £3500 for food/booze/clothes = £80/week.

that’s more than i’ve got, and i’m quite comfortable ta.

rent in a student house in ‘anywhere other than london’ will be £50/week

that’s £2000 for the year.
Do you not have to pay for the full year?

Fairly sure we did for one of ours.

i never did.

i even came to rely on the £200 my landlords offered to bugger off early – so they could cash in from the Malaysian students who came over for the summer…

rent in a student house in ‘anywhere other than london’ will be £50/week

It was more than that 10 years ago.

Probably closer to the £90-100/wk mark now.

Then there’s bills, food, books, travel etc on top of that lot.

ahwiles, binners – I don’t think engineering is too badly paid. £26k is around the starting salary on a graduate engineer on a training scheme these days. A graduate engineer who stays in engineering should expect to get to £50k perhaps a little more, but most graduate engineers move into management or a variety of forms of consultancy – earnings can be pretty good.
Nursing didn’t used to need a degree, but that has changed in the same way that 50% of kids going to uni has.
Teaching? Well they ain’t rich but they aren’t exactly struggling to eat either.

Working class homes are working class by definition of them being the homes where education is seen as ‘not cool’, where doing well meant you were a swot and where it was something to be derided.

I spent a couple of years in a really shit high school. This really was the mindset for a lot of (though obviously not all) people.

When my parents punted me to a fee-paying school it was the polar opposite. Make of that what you will.

couple of points..
you dont have to go to university and going is no guarantee of sucess.

If you want to go you can go wherever you want as long as you can fulfill the entry requirements. the govt. loan you the money for education and living costs ( you can take work before or during the course or even save beforehand if you wish)

seems like a fairly fair and open system to me..

I still can’t see how tuition fees are impacting inflation if (next to) no one is yet paying them back – anyone care to elaborate?

People may not be paying the loans back, but the government is still paying (the much larger) fees to the universities for their services. Inflation is the increase in the cost of goods and services. It doesn’t really matter who is paying for it. Since there has been pretty much a universal increase in fees, the impact will be noticable in the inflation figures.

I still can’t see how tuition fees are impacting inflation if (next to) no one is yet paying them back – anyone care to elaborate?

It’s debt, it’s going to make a diffence to everything in my life from mortgages to credit cards to overdrafts to loans….

jon/emsz

Agree, but it shouldn’t be impacting inflation already – as no one is yet paying them back.

RPI/CPI aren’t theoretical numbers (AFAIK) but actuals, therefore shouldn’t yet be impacted – or does someone have a definitive answer?

b r – Member

jon/emsz

Agree, but it shouldn’t be impacting inflation already – as no one is yet paying them back.

and when they do start paying them back, they’ll be paying back LESS per month/year/lifetime.

br – RPI is on a notional basket of goods, which obviously includes in this case tuition fees. The RPI records the prices, not necessarily the cashflow, of a trade. Whether the transaction is paid with debt, goodwill, or cash is not factored in, just the price at which the good or service was transacted.

It comes back to my earlier point too, which is that university fee hikes do not instantly impact upon standard of living, and even in the long run the interest and repayment rates are so low as to have a minor impact when they start to be paid anyway.

ahwiles – Member
i don’t know…

rent in a student house in ‘anywhere other than london’ will be £50/week

that’s £2000 for the year.

leaving £3500 for food/booze/clothes = £80/week.

that’s more than i’ve got, and i’m quite comfortable ta.

Maybe in the olden days grandad.

Rent is more than than; halls much more (in fact, when when i was a first year my maintenance loan didn’t cover the cost of catered halls). Plus when you rent a new house there are the landlord fees.