It hurts. It really bloody hurts.

I think i am going to stick to the Land Rover, big piles of wood and making things with a big hammer threads…

I came to the conclusion a long time ago, that the world can be a depressing place, and we all need to do what makes us happy as long as it does not hurt or infringe on anyone else. We should stop trying to fit into boxes that make us unhappy. I always enjoy Rachel’s post, as they centre mostly around sound advice on motorbikes and some great travel tales, clearly things that make her happy, and me also.

At the end of the day, an idiot is just an idiot.

It’s not fringe case.

It absolutely is, unless you’re suggesting this is normal behaviour?

It’s one example.

And a very specific one that you’ve chosen to attempt to weaponize to push a point

There are plenty.

Plenty? I call shenanigans on that, ‘some’ maybe, ‘a few’ definitely. But they are all fringe cases and not representative of normal behaviour in any group of people no matter what gender or sex they are.

I am one of the ‘drifted away due to the way this place is going’ people, I’ve been a member for years but frankly I find this place less and less pleasant as time goes on.

Right now I don’t actually care if I get sent on forum holiday for this, but I do wish you and the people that poison this place would simply **** off.

A failure of moderation at policy level, not a failure by the moderators

There’s a policy? Who knew.

I still don’t understand what [Junkyard] actually did wrong to get a permanent ban. He was annoying but not really offensive.

For what it’s worth, I disagreed with JY’s life ban. If only because there’s a few folk on here I’d cheerfully see receive the thick end of the hammer ahead of him. (-:

The mods are spot on, you can’t start deleting posts or banning individuals becuase “We all know what Geetee’s about”. They, quite rightly, have to actually break the rules.

I was discussing this via PM yesterday. Whilst you’re correct, and there’s a select few who are clever enough to know exactly how far they can push without actually crossing a line directly, we are well aware of the cumulative effect of their output. The fact they’re still here I think is a testament to us not letting personal bias influence moderation decisions. But sooner or later they’ll go too far or make one contentious post too many. The drip-drip effect has not gone unnoticed I can assure you.

I’m not hearing anything that makes me think the mods or the site policy is wrong, quite the opposite, they’ve got it spot on.

Given that we’re largely winging this that means a lot, thank you. (-:

@amedias well said.

@amedias well said.

Yes. See amedias is a good example of an interesting contributor who’s drifted off and most of us don’t notice until they return or someone points it out. I reckon there are dozens more.

There’s a policy? Who knew.

Not having a policy is still a failure of policy.

With honest respect for the work of unpaid mods, you can’t just leave it to them to make it up on the hoof on a commercial site. Someone has to make executive decisions on issues like this.

The old maxim of ‘come for the bikes, stay for the bullshit’ seems to be less applicable just now. I think this place works best when it is principally a bit of lighthearted diversion with some genuine expertise thrown in, but above all, a sense that it is a community that, even when not in agreement, is generally respectful of each other.

Hopefully this is just the bottom end of a cycle which will naturally recover its balance and find a bit more fun.

I would add my voice to those who praise the moderation – it would be easy to have either a complete free-for-all or a very stifling rule-bound approach, but it’s a lot harder to balance the freedom of genuine debate (even occasionally bad tempered stuff) with the need to stop it straying into the gratuitously offensive and hurtful.

With honest respect for the work of unpaid mods, you can’t just leave it to them to make it up on the hoof on a commercial site. Someone has to make executive decisions on issues like this.

Seems to be working so far.

That’s not quite how it works, anyway. The moderators are trusted to make decisions on a day-to-day basis, but Mark and co are still in overall charge. If we’re not sure of something then we’ll escalate it accordingly, if we get it wrong then it’s brought to our attention. Pretty much like any half-decent workplace I guess, we’re not micro-managed but it’s not a complete free-for-all either.

As per a few other I have been lurking and reading this thread with interest.

My view, and I apologize if I lack the subtle nuances of some of the more urbane posters here, if you are upset about any comment or thread in general that you feel is against the site policies/rules or is in general racist, sexist etc report it, the moderators seem to do a good job here and I for one would trust them to show judgement and act wisely.
Alternatively you can challenge views you find upsetting or even easier, simply ignore them, as most here do here in regards to the countless political and Jordan Peterson type threads.

This site is great for advice, there is a great mix of people and every time I’ve asked for help or advice I’ve got in in spades. If you want opinions though, its best avoided.

Hopefully this is just the bottom end of a cycle which will naturally recover its balance and find a bit more fun.

I fear not, i’ve seen a number of fourms end this way. The level of debate is unpleasant and uninteresting, so new users shy away. Others users get tired of it and all that is left is a subgroup who revert to type in every argument. To the extent that for any topic, you can pretty much predict how it will go and who will say what.

In the end, those that remain may as well revert to argument codes to refer to the same old stuff every time.

Feminism!!??? Argument 273
hmm response 349
but 132
45
89
32

These will the become so hackneyed, that entire debates will have a code and be complete in that

Death Penalty???
circle 463

then we will have the answer to everything and there will be nothing left to discuss

You missed Death of the Forum prediction #27.

Seems to be working so far.

Jesus Christ, this whole thread is literally about how it isn’t really working.

This site is great for advice, there is a great mix of people and every time I’ve asked for help or advice I’ve got in in spades. If you want opinions though, its best avoided.

Well put. And the bike forum is usually much more pleasant, unless you attract the scorn of GW obvs.

The level of debate is unpleasant and uninteresting, so new users shy away. Others users get tired of it and all that is left is a subgroup who revert to type in every argument.

And this should be a wake-up call to the site owners, before all they’re left with is MikeW and Geetee in an endless circle of “debate”.

@CharlieMungus: Folks are not outraged on someone else’s behalf. They are calling out offensive attitudes and language. Just because it does not offend me personally does not mean that I should not object to it.
Just because I’m a bloke does not mean I cannot complain about or object to misogynistic behaviour.

I am slightly surprised to hear you say this Charlie. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I vividly remember being (quite correctly) pulled up by you and others for “white knighting”. So clearly there is quite a difficult balance there too.

We’re regularly reminded that the forum is doing OK, thank you very much. Those that are unhappy with it should simply go elsewhere. I’d be happy to see the back of some of the folk complaining about it.

FWIW, I’ve had a couple of run-ins with the Mod team. Generally I think they do a great job but (a) it’s a team and (b) they’re human.

Plenty? I call shenanigans on that, ‘some’ maybe, ‘a few’ definitely. But they are all fringe cases and not representative of normal behaviour in any group of people no matter what gender or sex they are.

TI used the example to criticise the law, and the fact it is illthought out in her view. It is not controversial to suggest it is the duty of lawmakers to attempt to safeguard people from those few who are intent on using their rights malevolently.

technicallyinept, have you thought about changing user name to sociallyinept?

Classy. And somewhat ironic. As pointed out by nobberinthefridge way earlier in this thread, I do wonder how some folk manage in the “real” world given their reactions on here

I probably need to hold my hands up I admit to positing unpleasant, thoughless probably even a bit bigotted stuff here, as well as finding myself “triggered” by other’s more unpleasant attitudes in the past… Like most people I am a constant work in progress, not an excuse but a fact… I do try to avoid it more now and often steer clear of the chat forum altogether…

What I like about STW is that despite primarily being intended for discussions on bicycles and bicycle riding, it does branch out into all sorts of other topics and that the users are able to discuss contentious topics without particularly heavy handed censorship. The Mods/ST would be well within their rights to do a lot more deletion than they do, but I think keeping the tougher threads does prevent this being yet another vapid, boring place with a vanilla outlook. It’s not a bad place to discuss things in more detail than other social media would and get to read opposing views (often in more detail)…

As for the current levels of undertone/general unpleasantness?
TBH I think its a reflection of the real world, people (at least in the UK) are pretty miseable at present the reasons are well know.
Users posting on STW will be influenced by everything around them, moods shift and circumstances outside this little website will affect how people behave on an annonomised service like this…

One thing I will say though, (IMO) this place is not a “Community” it’s a forum, an online service where users can post some text and read whatever others choose to post nothing more, and should perhaps not be given the weight or treated as seriously as a (real life) community. I wouldn’t rely on STW for support personally…

One thing I will say though, (IMO) this place is not a “Community” it’s a forum, an online service where users can post some text and read whatever others choose to post nothing more, and should perhaps not be given the weight or treated as seriously as a (real life) community. I wouldn’t rely on STW for support personally…

+1

“One thing I will say though, (IMO) this place is not a “Community” it’s a forum, an online service where users can post some text and read whatever others choose to post nothing more, and should perhaps not be given the weight or treated as seriously as a (real life) community. I wouldn’t rely on STW for support personally”

+2

I think I’d disagree with that last point.

STW, and indeed the Internet and even the world generally has always had its… “characters.” I don’t see this as a particularly new phenomenon, folk seem to have short memories. There’s been plenty of culls of problem children over the years.

I reject absolutely the notion that it’s not “real” because it’s the Internet (and I’ve had this argument on here before). You’re still dealing with real people, the fact that you’re bashing away at the keyboard changes nothing. As evidenced by this very thread in fact.

If you think it’s not a community and not somewhere you’d look for support, I suggest you look at one of Gnusmas’ or Bullheart’s threads (or any number of “my wife left me / my dog’s died / I’m losing my job / etc” posts). We might well have a couple of trolls and opinionated self-important bellends but when the serious stuff happens the place can pull together in an incredible manner.

Classy. And somewhat ironic. As pointed out by nobberinthefridge way earlier in this thread, I do wonder how some folk manage in the “real” world given their reactions on here

Like the situation where someone stated that another poster was categorically wrong, then completely ignored the subject when shown otherwise (by a 3rd poster)?

There are also many people here who think they are holier than thou

“One thing I will say though, (IMO) this place is not a “Community” it’s a forum, an online service where users can post some text and read whatever others choose to post nothing more, and should perhaps not be given the weight or treated as seriously as a (real life) community. I wouldn’t rely on STW for support personally”

+3

I think I’d disagree with that last point.

+1

If you think it’s not a community, I suggest you look at one of Gnusmas’ or Bullheart’s threads. We might well have a couple of trolls and opinionated self-important bellends but when the serious stuff happens the place can pull together in an incredible manner.

Was going to say that but you beat me too it. However its not primarily a community, rather just another online forum, but has its moments of pulling together in amazing ways (gnusmobile as an example)

I wouldn’t rely on STW for support personally”

NO , you wouldn’t but if you posted on mental health , suicide, depression , anger issues, berevement , cancer etcyou would get help in spades. Offers of a beer , a coffee or a ride out sometime
Look at Gnusmas , we got him a car
Re Bullheart. I would like to think we extended his time on this earth by years

It is an online forum no doubt, but it extends way beyond that. The group rides at Swinley for instance Phil used to organise were ace. Even back to PaddedFred days we all argued ( mostly with him tbf ) but there are occaisions where there are some disrespectful comments posted
Sometimes its bored Trolls looking for an online arguement, sometimes its in response to a post which has been mis read or mis construed . Sarcasm does not work anywhere near as well typed as spoken in context etc

So Yes there are negatives , which in this case Rachael felt the need to say something
But imo The positives easily outweigh the bad stuff
We just all need to be abit more thoughtful before clicking the ‘Submit’ button thats all

Jeez , I typed the same reply as Cougar , just using different words

One thing I will say though, (IMO) this place is not a “Community” it’s a forum, an online service where users can post some text and read whatever others choose to post nothing more, and should perhaps not be given the weight or treated as seriously as a (real life) community. I wouldn’t rely on STW for support personally…

Having posted on here in desperation due my partners near suicidal PND and advice about dealing with my Dad’s stroke I can say without hesitation that this is not true. Maybe to you it is a forum, but to some of us it is a community, maybe it is a reflection on how you use it and getting out what you put in.

I’ve made real life friends on here, received free, expert help on so many topics and life saving advice from total strangers. I’ve seen generosity and help between people who have only interacted on here that has left me in tears.

Not a community? It’s a better one than many of the physical ones I’ve lived in. Unfortunately it isn’t free from selfish/boorish/bigoted/rude/nasty/opinionated/etc bellends, and their presence has to be tolerated, just like in real life.

Secondly; Too often on here there are users who do not want to take on board other viewpoints or opinions and will shout loudly their own view regardless. That’s not a discussion.

This is particularly pertinent to geetee, he has done research and all that, was an undergradute etc, this has bred a certain superiority of knowledge over others into his thinking, but really its just inflexibility to adapt to changing times, which shows up in his support for Jordan petersons “20 century” thinking.

Join us geetee, join us in the 21st century where there are men who when they look at other people they see “human above all” rather than woman, Gay, Trans etc. That goes for you nationalists too.

Join us, we got cookies.

Join us, we got cookies.

Only to get rid of the ‘respect your privacy’ popup. 🙂

Good job you all think Geetee has a thick skin, as people seem to think its OK to single him out for special treatment. The irony of it all, its bullying pure and simple.

If only there was as much effort put into debunking his arguments, rather than just criticising him as a person. That’s how its meant to work, someone puts their position forward with their evidence and if you don’t agree with it counter it with your evidence.

And where did Esme go?
I’d like her and her dating tales back please.

@bazzer

Geetee has been mentioned a lot and has stirred the pot themselves in this thread. Don’t assume he hasn’t been debunked many times in the past on other threads.
The point made by many, including myself, is that the intransigence of users like geetee is and should be called out.

someone puts their position forward with their evidence and if you don’t agree with it counter it with your evidence

Like the OP: “This really upsets me”

Geeteee: “No it doesn’t”

OP: “It really does.”

Geetee: “Nope, it doesn’t and here’s a further example of it to prove my point.”

You don’t need to ‘prove’ how someone feels – they just tell you.

You can chose whether to take note of how they’re feeling and change what you’re doing to adjust and it’s clear on this thread who does and who doesn’t feel the need to do that.

Good job you all think Geetee has a thick skin, as people seem to think its OK to single him out for special treatment. The irony of it all, its bullying pure and simple.

Reading some of the mods posts and little recent activity from him, I’m guessing he’s been banned.

I don’t think that helps as it just looks like he’s contemplating his posts, rather than not having any means of replying.

If only there was as much effort put into debunking his arguments, rather than just criticising him as a person.

It happens. And it didn’t so much as make him flinch. Particularly the wealth of evidence provided on how toxic and misleading Jordan Peterson’s rhetoric is has, to the best of my knowledge, never even made him re-consider his opinion on that very rhetoric and yet it’s exactly the kind of thing that, had he been open minded about it, perhaps would have made him think that although he considers he has done no wrong to allethegear, the OP still thinks he’s part of the problem here.

I’m sure he’ll be along with arguments why my opinion of JP are misguided, and try and convince me why he’s right, but once again he’ll be missing the point.

That’s more what his detractors object to, in my opinion. I don’t often get involved in discussion on those topics because I both disagree with most of geetee’s positions on the things he posts about and also dislike his constant lobbying on the topic. I tend to just steer clear and not read that stuff myself, but I can absolutely see that people should feel able to call it out whether or not if affects them directly (so specifically without being accused of “being outraged” on behalf of someone).

And where did Esme go?
I’d like her and her dating tales back please.

Eeek, I hope my other half isn’t reading this!
I think you mean Emsz . . .

Hahaha.

Don’t worry Esme your dating secrets are safe with us.

😉

Good job you all think Geetee has a thick skin, as people seem to think its OK to single him out for special treatment. The irony of it all, its bullying pure and simple.

If only there was as much effort put into debunking his arguments, rather than just criticising him as a person. That’s how its meant to work, someone puts their position forward with their evidence and if you don’t agree with it counter it with your evidence.

+1, play the ball, not the man.

But recently, things have changed.

I have been reduced to tears on multiple occasions reading the comments of some users who seem to be prolific recently, people like rene59, technicallyinept and geetee1972. Reading Alpin use a term like “was-man” absolutely reduced me to tears.

Rachel – I’m genuinely sorry that you feel upset by the posts, and can agree with you that there are a small number of notably vocal posters who have rather entrenched positions on some issues. But, I’d wager that much like the rest of society, a small number of shouty people can and would be drowned out by the masses if someone called them out on it. Your thread has done that with aplomb. But please don’t ever sit, cry and be quiet because someone says something that offends, call out, shout out, and other will respond, others will help.

For my own part I have an odd relationship with my family and some of my older friends, some of whom have very different political/philosophical views. I too find their opinions fundamentally offensive and most of the time I can let it slide (Ii have a fairly thick skin), but every so often, it’s worth the effort to give a massive push back and let them know that there’s another voice, another way of thinking. I don’t know if it moderates what they think/do, but I hope, sometimes that when they post, they might just briefly think about what I’ve said.

Sorry Esme autocorrect in action!

+1, play the ball, not the man.

Quite hard to do when the man continually insists on putting their face in front of the ball