It hurts. It really bloody hurts.

clockbait threads

Ok, so we have lots of that and we can’t draw the inference?

It’s probably important to say that the term patriarchy is used by feminism to describe a society run by men, for the specific benefit of men and the opression of women.

However, if by patriarchy you simply mean ‘the majority of position of power are ocupied by men’ then yeah, sure, we live in a patriarchy. My contention (and that of a great deal of others) is that there simply being more men in positions of power (and by the way it’s a vanishingly small number of men relative to the population) is not remotely suggestive that a) the subsequent society opresses women and b) it benefits men.

@allthegear – I don’t give a shit about many things but this situation annoys me. I do enjoy your posts, especially the eastern Europe bike tour. I definitely think your perspective is very welcome. I do think that if this forum is hurting you then that is a sad reflection of <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>this</span> online community. I had no idea about your situation/history. I’ve just thought that  Rachel is a nice person, the sort of person that I’d like to ride a bike with. I guessed that you’d forgive my lack of fitness, lack of skill and overall shitness and would heartily laugh about it. Isn’t that why we’re all here? To talk bollocks about bikes and have fun with like-minded souls…..

I wandered back in here recently after some time away and the bile and bollocks being spouted on some threads was really disappointing to see. If it’s affecting long time members to the degree that allthegear talks of, and I can see why it would, then I think the forum, and by default it’s owners, have really lost their way, which is a terrible shame.

Fwiw, I have seen the mods do a great job cleaning up some threads and barring the habitual offenders.

Totally. And it’s become a negative loop with more people drifting away as the overall tone of the forum becomes more middle-aged, grumpy and joyless.

+1

Leave them to it until it becomes a few kids shouting in an empty room.

+1

Increasingly it just seems to descend into the same perpetual, tedious feedback loop. A depressingly inevitable race to the bottom.

geetee1972

Member

Please someone make it stop

Unfortunately, it’s the existence of the thread that’s the problem. If you want a thread ogling women, create a WhatsApp group or something. I don’t think many women want to see a group of boys phwoarring over women on STW.

@molgrips – er, yeah, that was kinda what my entire point was hinging on.

My contention (and that of a great deal of others) is that there simply being more men in positions of power (and by the way it’s a vanishingly small number of men relative to the population) is not remotely suggestive that a) the subsequent society opresses women and b) it benefits men.

This is probably going to drag the thread further down the road, but I’m just going to say this and then stop:

You think that because you occupy a position of male privilege. You can only say that because you just haven’t noticed the disadvantages of being a woman. Because you have never been a woman. There is a ton of literature on this subject. Read it, and keep your mind open – don’t just assume that your own experience is universal.

er, yeah, that was kinda what my entire point was hinging on.

I wasn’t sure from your post, didn’t quite understand it 🙂

Aa a general point, is this not an example of where a PM might be appropriate? I know that other folk have either resolved their differences or agreed to differ by taking it off the forum. It wouldn’t always work, but maybe worth a try?

I dont think I have done anything to offend myself. I was talking generally we as a society need stuff pointing out that others think obvious sometimes, so well done OP.

It’s probably important to say that the term patriarchy is used by feminism to describe a society run by men, for the specific benefit of men and the opression of women.

However, if by patriarchy you simply mean ‘the majority of position of power are ocupied by men’ then yeah, sure, we live in a patriarchy. My contention (and that of a great deal of others) is that there simply being more men in positions of power (and by the way it’s a vanishingly small number of men relative to the population) is not remotely suggestive that a) the subsequent society opresses women and b) it benefits men.

So your contention is that society in general doesn’t oppress women.

Yet in a thread specifically about how your (and others) posting has upset a woman, you have flatly refused to believe that your part in this is an issue, dismissed her complaint, and then continued to post the same stuff that was upsetting her in the first place.

Well. You’ve really proved your point there haven’t you 🙄

Yet in a thread specifically about how your (and others) posting has upset a woman, you have flatly refused to believe that your part in this is an issue, dismissed her complaint, and then continued to post the same stuff that was upsetting her in the first place.

Very much this.

I was going to type more about showing empathy as well as exercising freedom of speech within this forum but, frankly, I feel I’d be wasting my breath.

OP, at least a couple of the users you specified in your first post consistently behave like proper bells (sorry, can’t be any more constructive than that), as do many of the other users contributing to this thread. Shame it is like that (and it is only getting worse), but honestly, if it is upsetting you I would simply stop using the forum, and try and take the nonsense that people post on internet forums less seriously (because there is nothing you can do about it in the bigger sense). Accept that many users are dicks that will probably revel in the knowledge that they think they are anonymously upsetting you from behind their screens. Unfortunately you will not get a utopian situation where everyone’s pet ‘trigger’ is carefully tip-toed around (or even bluntly acknowledged) – people are just too diverse/ignorant for that.

I’ve considered before whether a forum should have a down-vote function, and whether users could set in their own options the ability to auto-hide comments down-voted by the community, setting x as a personal threshold. Generally, the most negative, bigoted views and trolls could disappear.

I think the average forum user wouldn’t turn it on because the truth is people want to read those views and comment on them, and a minority of people want to be outraged on other people’s behalf.

Similarly an ignore button. I wonder if the forum had one how many people would actually press it, and how many would feel they were missing out on the controversial posts? I’m not sure that’s unhealthy. I’ve probably had more introspect from reading opposing views on this forum than any time spend with friends.

It’s not good that Rachel is hurting, she never put herself forward as a torch-bearer. However, whether she should be proud that her openness (and comments around it on this forum) has undoubtedly positively affected the attitude towards trans of a great many users of the forum (me included).

take the nonsense that people post on internet forums less seriously

The problem is, what these people are saying IS serious. They have made it clear that they strongly believe in what they say, and I don’t think they’re all delibrately trolling. The fact that geetee is so convinced that there isn’t a patriarchy is a genuinely serious problem, as this spreads into his real life and is presumably reflective of a portion of society as a whole that needs to be addressed.

Geetee- it’s nice that the you hold the forum in high regard, but if your comments have driven a user to post this thread then maybe the forum doesn’t hold you in such high regard.

I dont think I have done anything to offend myself.

Oops. An unfortunate typo of mine. That post was supposed to start “As a general point”  not “AA a general point” 🙂

Sorry for any confusion!

Rachel, I am sorry you feel this way, although I can see why you feel this way. I am a bit of a lurker on this forum so I guess I am a bit of the problem. I see these posts but just pass them by as I kinda know who and what will be said. This problem will remain if it is not called out, fair play for doing that. On the other side of the scale I have read many of your posts and find them of more interest than the posters you mention. I will admit that you have a different perspective from my usual thinking (white middle aged male) and I thank you for that, this place is better with you in it, please rise above the few

So your contention is that society in general doesn’t oppress women.

Yet in a thread specifically about how your (and others) posting has upset a woman, you have flatly refused to believe that your part in this is an issue, dismissed her complaint, and then continued to post the same stuff that was upsetting her in the first place.

well said.

This thread is turning into a bit of a “I never liked X, Y, and Z anyway, and they never contribute anything of interest”. Of course we should call out anything truly bigoted, but by discussing difficult topics in an adult way rather than swerving them, we can all learn something. Certain pockets of Facebook, Twitter etc are much more hate-filled and bigoted than STW – although that isn’t an excuse for hurtful remarks on here, I’d like to think that STW is generally a more adult place.
And don’t get me started on mumsnet. I found it to be toxic. Women can be shits to each other too!

a minority of people want to be outraged on other people’s behalf.

Here’s part of the problem. Folks are not outraged on someone else’s behalf. They are calling out offensive attitudes and language. Just because it does not offend me personally does not mean that I should not object to it.
Just because I’m a bloke does not mean I cannot complain about or object to misogynistic behaviour.

Reading all of the above has made me sad again. Especially the OP’s post.

I’m logging out of STW for while.

I wish sometimes I could delete my account… but it cant be done.

PS I sure all my grammar in this post is rubbish. It will almost certainly be corrected by some 😉

I’m going to ride my bike 🙂 wierd hey!

Good luck. Rachel.

Here’s part of the problem. Folks are not outraged on someone else’s behalf.

That’s out of context, Charlie. I was saying in a response to considering a more heavily moderated forum, be it by forum function or mod.

I’m absolutely not suggesting that people call out bigotry only if they are affected.

On further reflection, it’s good that others have noticed the forum’s slide into negativity and the way it’s shedding interesting contributors.

However the names rachel mentions are regularly challenged and regarded with contempt by a large section of us (maybe the majority) so her complaint is fundamentally about a failure of moderation.

I worked for a big moderation agency for a couple of years recently and there are a few users who would have been long gone under most client guidelines. And one moderator, FWIW.

So ST management either….

a) Don’t mind their site becoming a platform for minor hate speech and misogyny.
b) Are labouring under the same misapprehension about “free speech” as some contributors here.
c) Don’t really care enough to engage.

is that there simply being more men in positions of power (and by the way it’s a vanishingly small number of men relative to the population)

Vanishingly small compared to the population?
What a strange comparison. You mean there are few men as CEOs of top companies than there are men? Or the proportion of men in these positions is very similar to that of women?

I’ve been lurking through this thread and trying to decide if i should respond or not.

Firstly and of most importance, Rachael is awesome and the world would be a better place for more people like you

Secondly; Too often on here there are users who do not want to take on board other viewpoints or opinions and will shout loudly their own view regardless. That’s not a discussion. I enjoying learning and understanding how people tick and what their thoughts are on issues. Even if i don’t agree, I enjoy a discussion. That’s not to say people can’t have strong opinions, I’ll call out Ton and TJ as two prominent users who don’t sit on the fence and will engage in a discussion, but what’s interesting is that if you observe examples like them their position will evolve all the time as they take on board counter-arguments.
There are other users who’s heals are so dug in that their contribution can derail any form of discussion and just become a shouting match against any reasoned argument against them.
I’m also one who will avoid certain threads that get started or will stop following a thread as soon as i see certain usernames. It’s not particularly any worse on here for that kind of user, what is different at the moment is some major changes in society that have a very real personal impact on people. Arguing about riding with or without a helmet is quite different from a discussion about gender identity or sexual discrimination.

Paddy
(White, middle class, heterosexual male. Member of the patriarchy and doing my best to not be a dick)

The problem is, what these people are saying IS serious. They have made it clear that they strongly believe in what they say, and I don’t think they’re all deliberately trolling

It is serious. Women’s right are being affected and you are being wilfully naive if you think this is not the case.

In Canada, a person who identifies as a woman (but uses both a male and female name on various social media accounts) has filed around 16 lawsuits against female beauticians for refusing to wax their balls.

The script goes like this:
Complainant : I’d like a Brazilian wax.
Beautician: Sure
Complainant: I’m a trans women but I still have my penis and testicles
Beautician: Oh, we only do female waxing.
Complainant: I’m female, this breaches my human rights, I’m suing you

Many beauticians are only trained in female waxing, i.e waxing a vulva.

I’d think you’d agree that it’s not unreasonable for a women not to want to handle a man’s penis. It is common for men to get an erection when have the genitals waxed.

There are plenty of other salons JY could use (if they really wanted a wax), yet they continued to seek out women to sue.

The complainant also appears to have a strange obsession with tampons and if young girls might need help inserting them. They have also made numerous racist comments, referring to local non-whites as dirty and smelly.

I don’t for one minute believe this person to be genuinely trans but they are being protected by Canadian law and supported by TRAs. Meanwhile, women risk financial ruin, and people speaking out are banned/suspended from social media.

You are all calling out geetee for alleged misogyny, but I don’t for one minute expect anyone here to do anything else other than say I’m making this up or that it transphobic to even mention it.

But it’s the way you present that one case as being representative of some greater problem rather than the fringe case it is.

And well done, another fine **** you to the OP as your agenda is more important than her feelings. In her own thread. You need to take a serious look at yourself.

her complaint is fundamentally about a failure of moderation.

I’d agree, and we’ve already explored that. Nobody can link to any posts that should have been deleted that haven’t, and nobody has suggested any practical rule changes.

If someone does I’m sure the mods will happily put things right, but in the absence of that I think it’s fair to say the mods are doing a perfectly good job and none of us could do any better.

This thread is turning into a bit of a “I never liked X, Y, and Z anyway, and they never contribute anything of interest”. Of course we should call out anything truly bigoted, but by discussing difficult topics in an adult way rather than swerving them, we can all learn something.

Deffo this. We should be playing the ball, not the man. Also we shouldn’t be afraid of discussing controversial topics, which by definition upset people. I try to avoid the controversial threads but if there weren’t controversial threads you can bet the footfall on STW would drop and the ‘good’ threads would get less traffic.

technicallyinept, have you thought about changing user name to sociallyinept?

I don’t for one minute believe this person to be genuinely trans but they are being protected by Canadian law and supported by TRAs. Meanwhile, women risk financial ruin, and people speaking out are banned/suspended from social media.

You are all calling out geetee for alleged misogyny, but I don’t for one minute expect anyone here to do anything else other than say I’m making this up or that it transphobic to even mention it.

So that’s one person engineering a situation in order to make a point.

Well, two, including yourself.

Anyone that feels the need to live on a forum for to many hours a day is either an attention seeker,a narcissist,a bully or mentally ill anyway,oh yeah or maybe they are just extremely dull in real life,i’m fantastic though.

I’d agree, and we’ve already explored that. Nobody can link to any posts that should have been deleted that haven’t, and nobody has suggested any practical rule changes.

If someone does I’m sure the mods will happily put things right, but in the absence of that I think it’s fair to say the mods are doing a perfectly good job and none of us could do any better.

A failure of moderation at policy level, not a failure by the moderators.

Moderation doesn’t just mean policing the detail of individual posts. It also means removing those seeking to hijack your platform for their own purposes.

We all know what Geetee’s about and Technicallyinept appears to have joined just to post about certain controversial issues. I’m not so familiar with Rene’s output, but if he’s consistently behaving like a bellend – regardless of breaking specific rules – then that could be a case for removal.

I don’t think the forum is becoming more negative/toxic as such it’s just less volume of posts overall and some of the long-term negative/toxic/troll posters are still around so their posts have slightly more ‘significance’.

But it’s the way you present that one case as being representative of some greater problem rather than the fringe case it is.

So that’s one person engineering a situation in order to make a point.

It’s not fringe case. It’s one example. There are plenty.

The women in New Zealand who had their poster campaign removed, this is exactly the kind of thing they’re worried about, i.e. ill though out legislation that affects the existing rights of a protected group.

Oob, as said before it’s not single posts that are the problem as opposed to the constant drip feed. Rather than use an old thread people start another one to get the frother working. It’s the consistency of their approach that grates as opposed to what they are saying.

Just because you can’t see a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one. If a handful of people are bringing down a community for one reason or another you can either convince them to act in the interest of the community or they can leave. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed an opinion as opposed to the way they present it.

I’m not convinced anything will be done though, I mean it took years before they got sick of Junkyard and he would literally argue the face off people who were agreeing with him.

If anyone needs an illustration of how toxic this forum can be this thread is it. Someone who is fairly respected and an interesting contributor (disclosure: nothing to do with gender) complains that people folk already identify as planks are upsetting them and are told they need to just ignore it. (I see not one of you has taken my invitation to explain why aweeshoe wasn’t told to ignore the N word). Rather than sit down, reflect and figure out what needs to happen the just ignore line is repeated, others say there isn’t a problem and the rest just want an argument with the offenders who came in to either flounce or restate the positions that offended to OP in the first place.

I take back what I said about technicallyinept.

You ALL need to take a good look at yourselves.

technicallyinpet – ffs this thread of all places to start banging on about trans people and how they’re evil. Get a grip.

and if you truly believe this;

I don’t for one minute expect anyone here to do anything else other than say I’m making this up or that it transphobic to even mention it.

don’t **** say it. you’ll change nothing, upset someone who we all like and want to feel welcome here and for what so you can walk away feeling like you’ve banged your bloody drum *again*.

Just **** stop. Please.

I mean it took years before they got sick of Junkyard

I still don’t understand what he actually did wrong to get a permanent ban. He was annoying but not really offensive.

Like I said he would argue the face off folk who were agreeing with him even after having it pointed out. Who needs that drama?

@chakaping & @wwaswas yes!

Moderation doesn’t just mean policing the detail of individual posts. It also means removing those seeking to hijack your platform for their own purposes.

That’s me humped then.

I’ve been using the forum for no purpose other than my own puerile amusement for years.

Moderation doesn’t just mean policing the detail of individual posts. It also means removing those seeking to hijack your platform for their own purposes.

Their own purposes? It’s a general chat board. They’re chatting about general stuff that interests them. The fact these threads seem to run to 6-7 pages suggests the topic interest other people as well. Christ the EU thread has tens of thousands of posts. Is that hijacking?.

We all know what Geetee’s about and Technicallyinept

A bit of a giveaway. The mods are spot on, you can’t start deleting posts or banning individuals becuase “We all know what Geetee’s about”. They, quite rightly, have to actually break the rules.

Oob, as said before it’s not single posts that are the problem as opposed to the constant drip feed

If something meets the rules, it can be repeated. Clearly repeated duplicate threads at a high frequency are going to get merged/deleted but that’s not happening AFAICT.

I’m not hearing anything that makes me think the mods or the site policy is wrong, quite the opposite, they’ve got it spot on.