Thank you ……. I’ll try my best.

The glass sea refers, I suspect, to the aftermath of a nuclear weapon in the desert.

You get backwards people in every country, not just America, and they all seem to have internet access.

I just wish certain sections of the media would give Iran some space. Why has Israel been allowed nuclear weapons for decades yet Iran cant have its own for self-defence?

Perhaps because Israel doesn’t threaten other countries with them!

Read Levy and Scott-Clarke – Deception.

Iran got a leg-up for its nulear programme from Pakistan, which also developed an illicit nculear programme using US aid money while elements of US government prevented interdiction of of it.

I am frankly not convinced that Iran poses any more or less of a threat to anywhere than Pakistan does.

😕

Why has Israel been allowed nuclear weapons for decades yet Iran cant have its own for self-defence?

the nuclear option is not one normally catalogued under ‘self defence’ these days. Utilisation of it to deter an invasion force may be counter productive…

I just wish certain sections of the media would give Iran some space.

as much space as the trendy lefty Guardian you rail against does?

What I don’t understand is the focus against Iran. How they are perceived as a target. North Korea, Pakistan etc/you name it arent threatened with strikes in the same way that Iran is.

FFS. Keep your prying noses out of other countries for once. Sick of Western Democracy. Whats happening with the accusations of genocide levelled against the Israeli Army? The walkouts yesterday. Sheesh. I honestly (bangs head).

I just wish certain sections of the media would give Iran some space. Why has Israel been allowed nuclear weapons for decades yet Iran cant have its own for self-defence?

If Iran does succeed in building and testing a nuclear bomb (it’s no good just claiming you have it) then there is a good chance Saudi Arabia will then go down that road. Therefore Iran getting the bomb is very bad for proliferation.

Note how I said about testing the bomb – Isreal have never done that (unless you like the conspiracy theory that linked Israel & SA to an Indian Ocean bomb test)So officially they don’t have one and therefore no one is ‘allowing’ them anything. The suggestion that they might is enough to help guarentee their security in a ‘Yes Prime Minister’ kind of way. Remember common sense and plain speaking do not really apply to politics!

Personally I don’t think there will be that much long term fall out if Israel do strike Iran. They will likely be in and out before the Iranians will know about it. Do you even remember hearing about the mysterious building in Syria that was replaced by a crater last year or the exploding military installations in the Sudan even more recently? These were most definatly the Isreali air force at work and interestingly the Sudan mission was of a similar distance from Israel as Iran.

The main worry of course is that Israel messes it up and leaves Iran with conclusive proof and something – even long range missiles with convential warheads to respond with. However it’s very likely that there are allied forces already at work in Iran so I suspect the scattered secret sites rather than just the official ones are already known about!

I also wouldn’t put much hope in Irans new Russian supplied air defence systems (if they are even on line yet). The chances are they won’t have enough experience or know how to get the best out of them and I also suspect that forces friendly to Isreal in countries neighbouring Iran will be able to pass on all the knowledge gleened in the past few years on the Iranian air defence systems.

Perhaps because Israel doesn’t threaten other countries with them!

So if the Israelis possess nuclear weapons not to threaten other countries, would it be right to assume that they are there purely to be used against other countries ?

Otherwise, I think you might be running out of reasons to explain why Israel has nuclear weapons.

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On the question of “threatening other countries” with nuclear weapons it’s probably worth remembering that when Geoff Hoon was British defence minister, he repeatedly threaten to carry out nuclear strikes against other countries, (including non-nuclear armed Iraq) in cases of “extreme self-defence”, as he put it.

BTW whilst Iran is, and has been, constantly threaten with attack and invasion, I doubt that they have any plans to build nuclear weapons**

Which is ironic really, because if they did indeed possess nuclear weapons, then there would of course be no possibility whatsoever of them being attacked.

** Only last month US intelligence yet again stressed their belief that Iran had no plans to develop nuclear weapons.

Senate Panel Told Tehran Has Not Made Decision to Pursue Nuclear Weapons

Basically, the panic over Iran comes, does it not, from the over-heated rhetoric of a populist president who has given the impression that he would quite like a nuclear weapon because it is politically popular in Iran to fantasize publicly about exterminating the jews.

As Iran is actually a fairly sophisticated democracy (albeit not a liberal one) and there are important checks and balances on the powers of the president and his control of the two structurally separate armed forces the risks of Iran using weapons if they possessed them are not really of a different order to those posed by any other similar country.

As with Pakistan, Iran would probably quite like a nuclear weapon, not to give it to deranged bearded fanatics or to flatten Tel Aviv, but because it has a very significant deterrent effect on conventional military action against it.

Nuclear capacbility allows Pakistan to provoke India in Kashmir despite being hopelessly outmatched in conventional warfare terms. Iran, if it wanted a bomb at all, would in practice want one so that it could continue to stir up trouble in Southern Iraq, Kurdistan, Palestine and the Lebanon without running such high risks of conventional attack on its territory by Israel or the US.

it is politically popular in Iran to fantasize publicly about exterminating the jews.

I don’t believe that for a minute – have you proof ?

I don’t doubt that the destruction of the Zionist State might be highly popular in Iran, but then it’s quite popular with me too – and I don’t wish any harm at all against jews.

And in a similar vein, you only have to look at the Hamas website and you will see that the ‘enemy’ is always refered as ‘zionist’ never as ‘jews’.

* You didn’t need to be ‘anti-white european’ to be against the Apartheid State.

I might be wrong here but Israel has had a nuclear DETERRANT for many years i.e. the fact that they have nuclear capability has probably protected it from outside agression many times.

The president of Iran is making very clear threats to Israel – I don’t ever hear Israel threatening to wipe any country of the map.
You may claim that it is politically popular in Iran to fantasize publicly about exterminating the Jews but history has shown many times that to many it’s a reality not a fantasy.

I’ve never heard the President of Iran threatening to wipe Israel off the map, except in Israel’s fantasies. He has however called for regime change, quite a different thing.

Israel has attacked many of its neighbouring countries over the last 40 years: Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria. It survives because of the protection it’s given by the USA. It’s notable that until the establishmnet of Israel, most of the countries in the Middle-East had well-integrated, peacefully living Jewish populations. That’s ended now.

Israel defended itself – look up the history.

“I’ve never heard the President of Iran threatening to wipe Israel off the map, except in Israel’s fantasies”

There’s none so deaf as those that cannot hear!

but history has shown many times that to many it’s a reality not a fantasy.

So that will be the Germans/Europeans that you’re talking about then – not the Iranians.

That kinda clears up things a bit 8)

There’s none so deaf as those that cannot hear!

And there’s none so blind, as those who cannot see…

i like riding my bike

i like riding my bike

I hope you don’t do it on occupied land.

GG – Six Day War

RB – So the president of Iran is really a peace-loving chap in charge of a civilised peace-loving country that only wants nuclear weapons because certain other counties have them – mmmmmmmmm yeah right!

OK, Tyger, so what countries has Iran invaded? Or even attacked? The Iran-Iraq war was started by Irag (funded by the USA) and all the fighting was on Iranian soil.

So – list them, please…

No more or less so than the leader of any other Peace Loving Country, such as this one.

Come on, Iran has oil. The West wants Iran’s oil. Iran does not in any way want the West to have it’s oil (The British ran the oil industries in Iran, and Iran got very little of the actual profits from it, until they kicked the British out). Iran realises that the West may very well invade Iran, as they have done, with Iraq. The West needs a reason to invade, otherwise people will think ‘hang on, that’s out of order’. So, the West creates a myth of a ‘threat’ from Iran, and demonises the nation and it’s culture. Iran thinks ‘sod this for a laugh’, and seeks to develop it’s own nuclear weapons program, to deter any possible invasion. The West does not in any way like this, as this will make things difficult, so starts banging on about Iran being this enormous threat to Global Civilisation.

Meanwhile, Israel is used to provide a smoke screen; the hysteria about a possibly Armageddon with Iran is whipped up, in order that Israel can justify it’s aggressive actions towards Iran.

How many people are going to die, over oil?

No, sorry; it’s the West that is the biggest threat to Global Peace. after all, which is the only country to ever use nuclear weapons, in anger? Which country has the biggest array of nuclear weapons? And point-blank refuses to give them up? Or allow UN weapons inspectors to inspect it’s nuclear, biological and chemical weapons facilities?

That’s right, the Land of the Free.

I think it’s disgraceful, that innocent Israeli, Iranian and many more Middle Eastern people are put into the firing line, because of the West’s insatiable greed for power.

GG – Six Day War

And your point is what ……….. that anyone wanting to fight the Zionist State has to automatically also want to exterminate all Jews ?

That there’s no difference between wanting a democratic non-racist Palestine, and the Nazi extermination camps ?

It might worth remembering that most Jews in the world don’t feel a need to live in Occupied Palestine.

In fact today there are about as many Jews living in the US as there are living in Israel – do you honestly think the Palestinians are in the least bothered about them ?

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…the president of Iran is really a peace-loving chap in charge of a civilised peace-loving country that only wants nuclear weapons because ….

Obviously you don’t agree with US intelligence (which isn’t noted for being “pro-Iranian”) claims that Iran has no plans for nuclear weapons. Can I ask you what your intelligence sources are tyger ?

Iran and Syria are training and arming the insurgents – not really peace-loving behaviour in my book.

Israel is home to the Jewish people. All the Jews I know think of it as home and their country – which it is. Many Arab nations would like to see Israel (gone and it’s people) – it goes way back in history as to why (read about Abraham in the Old Testament – that’s in the Bible btw :-))

All the Jews I know think of it as home and their country

That doesn’t say very much for the patriotism of the Jews you know tyger 😯
Why would British Jews not see Britain as ‘their home and their country’ ?

And it doesn’t help me much when I challenge racist/fascist filth who try to argue that Jews can’t be truly ‘British’.

All the Jews I know think of it as home and their country

Really? None of the ones I know, do. They’d much rather stay in places like Stamford Hill, or Muswell.

Iran and Syria are training and arming the insurgents

Are they?

Many people in other Arab nations, and indeed round the World, do not agree with the idea of a Zionist state. I don’t. Some of my Jewish friends do, but other ones don’t. Lots of Jewish people worldwide, don’t.

This gets turned into wanting to see Israel, the land and it’s people, destroyed, when in fact it is nothing of the sort.

Anyway, I’m too tired for this. I think I shall retire, with Ms. Julia Bradbury (on iPlayer only, sadly).

RB Does this mean I get to say the last word? 😆

RB and GG – if ever we get to meet, care for a pint and a friendly chat?

Yeah no problem tyger, but anyway ……. you still haven’t answered my question on why you reject US intelligence which claims that Iran has no plans to build nuclear weapons. Please answer it.

Because whilst I can think of lots of reasons why US intelligence might lie and claim that Iran has plans to build nuclear weapons, I can’t think of one single reason why they would lie and claim hasn’t any plans to build nuclear weapons. So I think that we can very much conclude that US intelligence believes that Iran has no plans.

Or do you just simply choose to ignore awkward facts/truths ? Because if you do, not only is that morally suspect, but it also makes your arguments considerable weaker. So please answer ?

GG (go easy on the accusations and assumptions btw) Is this the same US Intelligence that stated there were WMD in Iraq? I rest my case.

I’m off to bed now – ‘night.

Yeah, of course, mate. I’ve no problem with meeting anyone off here, really. There’s one or two can get fecked, but I believe people should discuss stuff, even if they don’t agree. Dialogue is good.

I might not agree with someone, but I’d still have a drink with them. Still a Human Being.

Is this the same US Intelligence that stated there were WMD in Iraq? I rest my case.

Yeah, the same one. So I’ll repeat; I can’t think of one single reason why US intelligence would lie and claim Iran hasn’t any plans to build nuclear weapons, when it has.

Because, as you quite rightly point out, they are far more likely to make false claims that Iran has plans for nuclear weapons, than anything else.

I take that the “I rest my case” statement means that you have no evidence to back up your Israeli propaganda claims that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.

btw, no need to worry – I’m always ‘easy on the accusations and assumptions’.

I hope you don’t do it on occupied land.

Don’t let your 8yr old son stray onto this land either, a grown man will shoot him dead.

I’ve deleted the rest. I don’t want to be seen to critise Israel.

I’m an Israeli and I ride my bike in Israel.

I sincerely hope that the new nutty right-wing “government” here isn’t considering a military “solution” to Iran’s nuclear threat, but the rhetoric here suggests they may be. Hopefully Obama will manage to calm the US/Iran relationship down, it is difficult to imagine that Israel would make such a strike without US approval, considering the global consequences. My fear is that The US/Britain would give Israel the go-ahead for such a mission as a proxy for their dirty work. Everyone hates Israel already whereas only half of the people hate the US and Britain.

I don’t think that the essence of the argument is about religion, but territory, although there are religious fundamentalists at the extremes of both sides.

A military response can only ever create more hatred and suffering, everyone needs to calm right down, but that isn’t in the nature of fanatics.

I am with Rudeboy and GG on this thread (things you never thought you would say vol 2) If I was the government of a state unfriendly to the US, I would arm myself as well. Could be interesting, Iran would be in a far better position to retaliate than Iraq, who we used to bomb on a regular basis,destroying the whole country’s infrastructure.

Everyone doesnt hate Israel. I hate the militant saber rattlers and those **** tshirts from the demobbing soldiers (Im hoping that is an isolated idiot-incident!).

Anyway, I sincerely hope no one attacks Iran. Its been building for a while hasnt it? Almost like we are being prepped for an attack. Thankfully even the US can’t handle more instability in the middle east now the recession started?

Well, thanks, PaulF, for an ‘inside’ perspective.

All the Jewish people I know here, pretty much despise the current Israeli regime. Because they, as are most Jewish people Worldwide, as well as Muslims, Christians etc, are peace-loving people who don’t want to see war, destruction and chaos erupt. Have we come so far, as a race, only to blow each other up?

I don’t hate Israel; the land, the nation, or it’s people. I hate it’s right-wing government, who seem to be wanting to bring millions of people toward Armageddon. I don’t believe in any concept of Zionism; that is, where a nation shall be organised around religious ideals.

We can’t change the past, but we can try to prevent future problems. One of the ways to do this is to tackle extremism. At the moment, it seems it’s only Islamic extremism that is being taken seriously, whilst Jewish extremism is a taboo subject. I really think pressure must be applied to Israel, to challenge extremism there. Iran does seem to be making some effort toward a more peaceful situation, so lets work with them, not against them.

Things ain’t gonna change over night. But they can change, over the long term.

I was even considering a holiday in Iran before things do get hot (as I reckon it’ll be hard/unwise to visit for the next 10yrs or so in a couple of years time)….looking at the way all the rhetoric is going 🙁