Israel have form. They'll kick this one off – Syria content.

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  • Israel have form. They'll kick this one off – Syria content.
  • Hasn’t Israel already taken military action 3 times against Syria since the uprising started ?

    Premier Icon unknown
    Subscriber

    But Israel are usually such sticklers for abiding by international law, no?

    No comment on the veracity of the OP’s statement, but since when has Israel ever given a shit what the UN says?

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    deadlydarcy – Member

    since when has Israel ever given a shit what the UN says?

    Sometimes it seems like they use it to keep score.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
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    You are using an example of how they behaved almost 50 years ago and extrapolating their actions on that? On that basis I expect the US to drop a couple of nukes and the UK to send in an ineffectual mission to destroy a couple of dams.

    CountZero
    Member

    and the UK to send in an ineffectual mission to destroy a couple of dams.

    Which mission was that then?

    This one

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSBtivbUs4[/video]

    tinribz
    Member

    Which mission was that then?

    😯

    Israel won’t help the rebels for the same reason the UK and US won’t (and were never gonna), most of them are al qaeda, if you believe the latest media hysteria.

    Premier Icon stewartc
    Subscriber

    Attack is the best form of defense and you cant blame the Israelis, if history has taught them anything its don’t rely on others to protect you.
    If my neighbors where Hamas, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood and some of the groups that make up the Syrian rebels I would be a little jumpy too.

    konabunny
    Member

    You are using an example of how they behaved almost 50 years ago and extrapolating their actions on that?

    Seems weird thing when Israel has bombed Syria on multiple occasions in the last decade.

    konabunny
    Member

    Israel won’t help the rebels for the same reason the UK and US won’t (and were never gonna), most of them are al qaeda, if you believe the latest media hysteria.

    Israel is proving medical aid to rebels on the Syrian territory it occupies – NY Times had a long article about this.

    Junkyard
    Member

    You are using an example of how they behaved almost 50 years ago and extrapolating their actions on that?

    Mleh you are being a tad unfair as it is not exactly like they have been spreading brotherly love since

    if history has taught them anything its don’t rely on others to protect you.

    I know I mean what has american ever done for them and how exactly did they get nuclear weapons again [ us and France in the main FWIW] 😕

    since when has Israel ever given a shit what the UN says?

    This in the main fear of UN action- US will veto anyway- wont even enter their heads.

    Attack is the best form of defense

    It’s surprising so few countries rely on that strategy then. Don’t they care about their own defence ?

    Premier Icon binners
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    There’s absolutely no chance on earth Israel will weigh in against Assad. The very last thing they want -the worst case scenario – is a bunch of jihadist loons with access to Syria’s very real (as opposed to Sadaam’s rumoured, but non-existent) WMD’s.

    They’re in the rather bizarre situation of being on the same side as Hezbollah. Surreal. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find Israel has been giving behind-the-scenes support to the Assad regime

    Given the recent Sarin attacks and allegations of VX possession I predict Israel will feel it has to bypass the procrastination of the NATO/ UN and strike the Assad regime. Israel is within range of Syria’s deployable delivery systems and i don’t think they will sit and wait for a devastating nighttime influx of various canisters. 1967’s six day war illustrated the Israeli propensity to act in anticipation rather than defence.

    I’m a bit scared TBH.

    5thElefant
    Member

    You’d think it would be in our (and Israel’s) interest to keep the war going indefinitely. It keeps Al Qaeda out of trouble.

    allthepies
    Member

    unknown wrote:

    But Israel are usually such sticklers for abiding by international law, no?

    Like the UK and US ? 🙂

    hora
    Member

    Erm do you really think Israel want the Assad government to fall? No. Better the Devil you know.

    Premier Icon unknown
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    oldnpastit
    Member

    How on earth did we get into this mess?

    5thElefant
    Member

    The fall of the European empires last century?

    hora
    Member

    The fall of the European empires last century?

    I think it was the way British politicians tried to appease certain factions and lobbies deep in the government. Some very successful and clever British Zionists in the right place at the right time.

    We had the strength (remember not long after we went on to fight in the Korean war) but it took some brilliant moves back at home to create the birth of Israel.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Korean war was led by the UN with America providing a mere 88 % of the troops [ and all UN generals] and the rest from 24 other countries. I am not sure what you are using the word “we” to mean there tbh.
    – south korean- 602,902
    United States 326,863[5]
    United Kingdom 14,198

    Your account for the birth of israel is equally well argued- we were in an armed struggle with [some of ]the Jewish elements, failed to find a solution that arabs and Jews would accept and withdrew leaving it to the UN to decide

    Have you considered researching before you post?

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    How on earth did we get into this mess?

    By the European colonial powers randomly drawing lines on a map, and carving up regions, paying no regard to the nature, history or opinion of the local populations. Then giving the resource rich bits to their mates and collaborators, so they could co-operate, while ruthlessly suppressing the populace if necessary

    What could possibly go wrong eh? The amazing thing is that it lasted as long as it did without dissolving into blood-soaked anarchy. They need to have this out, to reconfigure the region without outside interference. Fat chance of that happening

    Remember that up until very recently (former Yugoslavia) the whole of Europe has been consistently shifting alliances, while randomly invading each other and having massive wars. We shouldn’t be too quick to get involved elsewhere

    hora
    Member

    Junkyard. If you read history (and books) you’d note the detail more than generalised sections.

    Same goes for your ‘no Germans dressed as Russians to attack the German border’- read Antony Beevor. DONT read google.

    Do you know about any part of the political side before the creation of Israel beyond blowing up a hotel/a few freedom fighters?

    Oh and 90,000 not 14,000. Check your sources.

    If you must ‘google – google “Zionist lobby”.

    Bloodsoaked anarchy is basically what was there before we carved the region up – obviously to exploit their oil reserves, beyond that we didn’t care if they were killing eachother. 50 yrs of relative stability and prosperity has resulted until we started to encourage the uprisings and give power back to the people and it’s descending back to square 1. There was a reason we propped up and worked with some of these unpleasant regimes in the past. We’ve stopped doing that (the right thing to do from a moral standpoint) and the region is once again descending into bloodsoaked anarchy. The main problem is there is no political infrastructure to fill the void.

    I don’t think there is a clean and clear answer to this one. We stand back and do nothing, we’re just as guilty as those chucking chemical weapons around, if we intervene we create more enemies than allies. Some say lets negotiate? How can we negotiate – we have nothing they want, we have no power or influence to negotiate. The 2 first and golden rules of any negotiation are that both sides need to want to negotiate (they don’t) and both sides have to want something that the other side has (they don’t want anything from us). Without satisfying these two rules there is no basis for negotiation.

    Even if Assad wins the Civil War, how do we remove him to try him for war crimes without the country descending into a power struggle and a second civil war?

    5thElefant
    Member

    My favourite account of the birth of Israel is from Lieutenant Colonel John Malcolm Thorpe Fleming “Jack” Churchill during the Hadassah medical convoy massacre.

    He walked infront of a convoy of jewish civilians under palestinion gunfire to escort them out:

    “As I walked along, swinging my blackthorn stick, I grinned like mad from side to side, as people are less likely to shoot you if you smile at them.
    Of course, having just come off a battalion parade, I was very dressed up – in Glengarry tunic, Sam Browne belt (but no claymore, worse luck!), kilt, hair sporran, red and white diced hose – and white spats!
    This outfit in the middle of battle, together with my grinning at them, may have made the Arabs laugh, because most of them have a sense of humour. Anyway, they didn’t shoot me!”

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Yip. It seems like there’s pretty much no possible outcome of this that looks or sounds remotely desirable to anyone. But there’s no going back now.

    Personally the only thing I can see is Syria being the catalyst that turns the many proxy wars already going on, involving all kinds of interested parties, into the full blown massive conflict engulfing the whole region. Which would then go on until all parties fight themselves to a standstill.

    And if the west thinks it can influence anyone or do anything other than sit on the side-lines, its delusional. Christ only knows what the region will look like in 20 years. I doubt it’ll have much in common with what it looks like now. That’s for sure!

    Junkyard
    Member

    Same goes for your ‘no Germans dressed as Russians to attack the German border’- read Antony Beevor. DONT read google.

    I said was that they planned to attack Russia under Operation barbarossa which is undeniably true.

    Do you know about any part of the political side before the creation of Israel beyond blowing up a hotel/a few freedom fighters?

    Yes but your claim was that zionist lobbyists were critical would have surely meant we created israel rather than we engaged in armed struggle with them in the region, tried to broker a peace deal acceptable to both sides then left the mess to the UN. if we had listened to them we would have created Israel and not fought them.

    Oh and 90,000 not 14,000. Check your sources.

    Wikki appears to be wrong though it was British and commonwealth and I cannot find a breakdown but happy to accept that figure is wrong – still only 10% of the fighting force though so not really us having the strength to fight it more us having the strength to support others fighting it.

    If you must ‘google – google “Zionist lobby”.

    I never denied a zionist lobby i disagreed that it led to us creating Israel not least because we did not create Israel.

    konabunny
    Member

    I know I mean what has american ever done for them and how exactly did they get nuclear weapons again [ us and France in the main FWIW]

    Israel doesn’t rely on the US: it accepts whatever support is given and wants that support to continue, but its political and military doctrine is to rely on no-one when the chips are down and when its interests are threatened.

    French assistance on the nuclear program ended in 1966; the US was never that influential; most weapons development was endogenous.

    I think it was the way British politicians tried to appease certain factions and lobbies deep in the government. Some very successful and clever British Zionists in the right place at the right time.

    We had the strength (remember not long after we went on to fight in the Korean war) but it took some brilliant moves back at home to create the birth of Israel.
    This is just utter Ross McToss.

    For one, it radically overstates the brilliance and amount of thinking that went into British withdrawal from Palestine (clue: they just buggered off), understates the improbability of the Zionists actually being able to win an armed conflict (clue: they were only a third of the population of the mandate, let alone the region), and completely ignores the fact the British had made promises inconsistent with the Balfour Declaration to the Arabs on who would control Palestine (Sykes-Picot letters). If the UK had had a secret brilliant clique of Jewish puppet masters controlling, the FCO wouldn’t have been filled with Arabists, the occupying armies wouldn’t have spent so much time ineffectually trying to shut down Jewish armed groups and boats filled with holocaust survivors like the SS Exodus wouldn’t have been turned back from the Palestinian shore and their occupants put in camps.

    And I seem to recall the Korean War wasn’t a great success for the British…

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    Israel says it has carried out a joint missile test with the US in the Mediterranean. #c4news #Syria

    oh good. Escalation 🙁

    Junkyard
    Member

    You are probably correct that when push comes to shove they would not GAS what anyone else thought

    most weapons development was endogenous.

    Yes they wanted it but alone they would have struggled – IIRC they dont have the materials in israel so they and we[ The west] massively advanced their ability to get it

    loddrik
    Member

    If I was Israel id be bombing the shit out of the whole region. Ok they can be a little over zealous but who can blame them..? At least they dont lack the bollox to get stuck in.

    Premier Icon D0NK
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    the carefully considered voice of moderation loddrik?

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    they can be a little over zealous

    Zealotry was originally a political movement in 1st century Second Temple Judaism which sought to incite the people of Judaea Province to rebel against the Roman Empire and expel it from the Holy Land by force of arms

    what an appropriate word.

    a little less zeal and a bit less land grabbing and the might have more friends in the area.

    konabunny
    Member

    alone they would have struggled – IIRC they dont have the materials in israel so they and we[ The west] massively advanced their ability to get it

    Yeah, they couldn’t have produced nuclear weapons without foreigners being involved in some capacity, but no-one provided them anything on a plate, and imvho your account has the same problem as hora’s nonsense: it falls into a lazy trap that denies Israel agency and sees everything through the prism of Western involvement.

    If I was Israel id be bombing the shit out of the whole region.

    Why?

    Junkyard
    Member

    it falls into a lazy trap that denies Israel agency and sees everything through the prism of Western involvemen

    No one would think they accidentally, without effort, fell into the possession of nuclear weapons. It hardly needs stating that they were trying to get them [ though I did say this], the point was they needed the help of other to do this.
    No one develops a weapon without trying a point I am happy to clarify yet again

    Yes they wanted it but alone they would have struggled

    Israel will launch a strike on Syria. Alas, something went wrong with (all of the) guidance systems on the missiles and they unfortunately fell on Iranian territory. And by a strange coincidence all exploded on Irans ‘civilian’ nuclear power labs…

    duckman
    Member

    Wouldn’t it be better for Israel to watch it’s hostile neighbour fight itself to a standstill in a civil war having first drawn in other Arab countries? A sectarian/tribal conflict with detract from the common perceived enemy and allow the Israeli’s to get on with doing whatever they like to the Arabs within their own borders without too much censure.

    Premier Icon dannybgoode
    Subscriber

    Odd how when Israel used white phosphorous (another ‘banned’ weapon) against the Palestinians noone really said a great deal.

    The joys of being ‘friends’ with the US I suppose.

    I hope they do stay the **** out to be honest as any involvement would inflame the situation pretty badly.

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