Sorry for the long post, but I think helps to write this all down and this forum is fairly anonymous so it is a good place to get this off my chest.

Was thinking about things that have happened to me and my family over the last 4 months today, and found myself questioning whether I’ve been living some messed up dream or whether people actually can behave in the way that they have recently.

Mid January – 2 days before the most depressed day of the year, things obviously got too much for my older brother. He was last seen at the yard that he rented, chopping logs (he was a tree surgeon). 4 days later, worried that he hadn’t heard from him, his friend went to the yard, climbed over the gate and found him in his truck with a hosepipe hooked up from the exhaust pipe into the cab.

His friend called the police, who attended with an ambulance. One of his other friends is a taxi driver, and happened to be driving someone who lived near the yard. She apparently got a phone call while she was in the cab, and knew the driver was a friend, mentioned the incident. He then called my mum, to say that the police and ambulances were at my brother’s yard, and did she want him to drive her up there? Fearing the worst, she said she definitely did not want to be driven up there.

He then picked his wife up, drove up there, found out what had happened before calling my mum back. It took 3 phone calls for my mother to understand that her son was dead as his friend’s wife was wailing so loudly in the background. Once the message had got through he said he would “give it half an hour before it got out on social media”. Consequently I had a panicked phone call from my mum when I was in the middle of my evening commute home. My mum was getting texts and messages from people offering condolences before the police had arrived at her house to officially tell her.

Fast forward 4 days – we were asked to visit the hospital and identify his body. I’m not a great believer in appearances, but did question whether dyed rainbow hair was the most appropriate  for a coroner’s assistant, but this paled into insignificance when, after asking us the usual questions regarding last known abode etc, she dramatically pulled the curtains back to show me that I had been sitting inches from my brother’s body the whole time.

We moved on and arranged the funeral. Had a lovely cremation in a place recommended by people on here actually. My mum wanted the service to be a small private affair as she had to think about his 6 year old daughter, and my two boys (7 & 12) who were all devastated by his death. A small group of his friends (the taxi driver and his wife) had made their feelings known on this by posting furiously on facebook about it – with some people advising them that “legally, no-one can stop you from attending a funeral”. Then we heard through the grapevine that a (completely mental) ex-girlfriend of his had contacted the crematorium and had the time and date of the service. When we left the service we found a cryptic note left on my mum’s car about how she should understand how much her son was loved. She has since started messaging us all, saying that a private funeral was the wrong thing to do.

We had arranged a completely open wake afterwards in a local pub (that was absolutely packed out for the entire night). Taxi driver and wife tried to arrange a rival wake in a different pub.

Before his death, my brother had rented a static caravan from a local farmer. A cash in hand affair with no contract. The last tenant had left, owing money, so he had bought the static from the farmer and paid rent on the land that it stood on. When my mum visited the caravan soon after his body was found he told her that my brother owed rent, which he was willing to overlook, but they would have to get the caravan removed at some point. I pointed out to them that he had left no estate – just a pile of debts, and that they were under no obligation to do this. They are fairly elderly (both retired), and in a fragile mental state. He has now contacted them, demanding that they get the caravan removed, and after being told that they were not going to do so, he has gone around the town trying to get their address. I called him today to ask why he wanted their address, and he said it was just to send a solicitor’s letter to. I pointed out that there was no contract, no estate to claim from, and that if I had let someone live in my garden in an ‘off the books’ cash in hand arrangement, and they died, I would think it was a bad choice and clear it up myself. In the end I advised him to go to a solicitor and if they advise him that there is a case, then he should contact me at my address (which I have given him). He ranted about how we should “clear up after our family members”.

Nat West bank have written to my mother to say that he had a £100 overdraft. She sent the death certificate and they have now started writing to both her and her husband, demanding the money.

We have the inquest next week and we are all terrified about who is going to turn up.

I know losing a close family member through suicide is going to be really tough, but does it have to be like this? Is it normal for people and companies to act like this? With people like this in his life, I can see why he made the choice he did.

Now that I have written it all down and thought about it, I find it incredible that people can act in this way. Am I being over sensitive? Seeing things through a blinkered viewpoint?

normal?  NO

Unusual – folk can do all sorts of weird things when someone dies and emotions run high especially if there are debts left.  I have seen families strip all pictures from a dying persons room before they are dead to stop other family members getting pictures, I have seen family members refuse to tell other family members where and when the funeral is. so nasty behaviour is not unusual.

the bank have to try to reclaim the debt from the next of kin and again its not uncommon to be very insensitive – I’d complain to the bank about it and they might well write off the debt

Support and protect your parents as you have been doing.

Sorry for your loss, Scott

I guess that sudden loss of a friend (let alone a family member in your case) is pretty traumatic for people.  You can probably expect some weirdness from various people who knew him (especially if they felt they were being excluded from a grieving “process”).  I’m not suggesting your family was wrong in any way – it’s your/their call, but I can imagine that some of those friends might feel that they’re not valued

The farmer though – he just sounds like a cock

Bank – par for the course

as for the Nat West demands….
If someone dies, their debts cannot be recovered if:

• the debts were in their sole name;
• there were no guarantors on any of the debts; and
• they have not left any assets behind.

Thats a rough time, my condolences.

Not blinkered at all, sounds like a bunch very unsympathetic and mean spirited people.

Taxi driver and friends, weird to arrange a rival wake, WTF!

Bank, not going anywhere, unless somebody signed as a guarantor. £100! surely they have bigger issues!

Farmer, flog or scrap the caravan? Nobody signed guarantor, there was no contract, jog on, stop harassing us.

As you say he isn’t going to get far in the legal system claiming loss on money he hasn’t declared..

Let this lot sing for it and use your energy on looking after your family.

Take care.

That must be really rough to have all that on your plate during such a time. No you are not being any where near over sensitive, all those people sound like arseholes of the worst type and I would avoid entering into dialogue with any of them. Unfortunately people can be really selfish with no compassion for any one else and show themselves at their worst at the most inappropriate of times.

Really sorry for your loss, doesn’t sound normal, but then again what is normal. I think you just have to try and not let it get to you, just deal with what comes(you sound like you are on the ball there, don’t let people take advantage), and look after your family and do what’s in yours and their best interest. It’s all you can do.

Good luck and all the best to ye.

Sorry for your loss OP. Cant really offer you much advice on what has gone on, but if the bank are giving you / your folks hassle over a £100 overdraft which needs paying let me know and I’ll help you out with it.

RM.

Farmer and bank can jog on.

Friends – odd behaviour but they are also grieving and may (justifiably?) feel they are being excluded from the process. Is there more to this than meets the eye, either actually or in the friends’ interpretation? Does it matter particularly now, are you or your family also their friends / do you want that connection in future?

Taxi driver and wife tried to arrange a rival wake in a different pub.

Bombers – ->slats

That sounds awful and at a horrible time, but as above, there’s no estate to claim from, so don’t engage with the ‘friends’ the bank or the caravan rental guy.

My condolences.

Firstly, that’s a sad situation to find yourself in, my condolences.

As above, friends are probably grieving too and not thinking straight. Benefit of the doubt for now.

Point the bank and the farmer at the executor of the will, via solicitors if you prefer. That’s not the kind of shit you need to be dealing with on a personal level. I am confident both would cease their demands fairly quickly.

Thanks for the support. Good to hear I’m not being overly sensitive .

I do get that people are grieving – and I sympathise. But I do find myself wondering if this is symptomatic of the age we live in, where everything is measured by likes, and everything has to be so public? I remember losing a friend when I was younger in similar circumstances. His family wanted privacy – as a group of friends we grieved, but without question we gave them that privacy, and felt no anger for it. Fortunately  a lot of his friends have come forward to offer support for our choice, and the kids have said how good they thought the private service was (well as good as it could be).

The bank will back off eventually. A small, insignificant thing admittedly, but I took great pleasure in switching our account away from Nat West this evening.

As for the farmer, I wonder if he’s thought about the taxman if he was to pursue this.

Awful situation. And I really feel for you.

The friends reaction is (almost) understandable as they may feel they have been shunned from the funeral of their friend for no reason. They aren’t dealing with it correctly, but they are grieving too. So it’s kind of expected to not be 100% on form.

The bank and and the farmer haven’t got a legal let to stand on between them.

Tell them both to **** off with their demands. They aren’t due anything, and they won’t get anything and they will both realise that soon enough.

As for the farmer, I wonder if he’s thought about the taxman if he was to pursue this.

Dont worry about that, tell him to go “full legal” if he fancies it. He’s got no chance. And it will cost him if he tries.

I have nothing to add on each specific bit of arseholery….others have it covered.

May i just venture a bit of advice to you, though…? Having helped my Mum deal with all practicalities after my Dad’s sudden death, i realise it is very easy to sweep all the little pieces of cr@p into one huge insurmountable pile which then gets you down. Its especially easy to do when you’re feeling fragile yourself.

Try to keep each problem in its own little bucket, work out which one to deal with first and just sort one thing at once. And as others have said….a lot of this isn’t for you to sort and cam just be shut down….banks, farmers, mates etc

I’m very sorry for your loss. You and yours have my most heartfelt sympathies.

My sympathies. As above, make the well-being of yourself and those you love a priority, and write a list of stuff which either doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things, or is just gits trying it on with a grieving family. Then just bin that list and carry on with the stuff that actually matters.

My sympathies.

Unfortunately you can’t please all of the people all of the time – some people take exception to being excluded and feel that it’s their right to be involved in everything regardless.

Had a similar situation with my Mom’s funeral last year – Mom’s wishes (as expressed in her will) were a small family only cremation. On the whole a lot of people were ok with it when we explained – there were a few who ‘whinged’ a bit (mainly those people who didn’t seem to give a crap when she was alive) but we did what Mom wanted – and tbh I don’t think me or Dad would have coped with anything bigger.

The whole ‘social media’ thing really hacks me off – some people just want to post everything on there. My Dad didn’t want anything posting on social media, which we reiterated to all the family and friends we contacted – because it’s nobodies business but ours. Luckily everyone respected that wish. The whole ‘I’ll give it half an hour before I post’ is harsh – especially as the Police hadn’t even been to inform the relatives.

I’m no legal person, but as far as I can see with the Farmer if it was a ‘cash-in-hand’ arrangement then he doesn’t have a leg to stand on – tell him to do one.

As others have also said – look at each individual problem/issue and priorities them, deal with them one at a time and the task becomes a bit easier. I had to do this with my Dad as he’d just tied himself in knots with who needed informing, what needed cancelling etc. I went round one day and all Mom’s paperwork for pensions etc. was all piled on the table and he was just sitting looking at it not knowing where to start. A few cups of tea later we had everything in some sort of order and a plan on how to tackle it.

Take your time and remember to look after your family – and more importantly don’t forget to look after yourself, if it gets too much take a break (I speak from experience!).

Sorry for your loss,your poor parents.

I can understand that the friends who made the discovery of your Brother may feel more emotionally involved than if they didn’t. However ,they should have respected the families wishes. Tell the farmer he can keep the caravan.

The bank should be ashamed of themselves.

It’s not normal and sounds a tiny bit like a Mike Leigh film I’m afraid.

Mr Hutch’s advice is spot on.

That’s crap … at times like this everything seems to pile up but I think reading what you put there are a few quite different things and putting them into seperate boxes might help.  Quite a few of these things seem to have happened to me lately.

I sorta see the farmers point or am at least sympathetic as you said they were willing to overlook the money owed and just want shut of the caravan.  They were coming from a family PoV not legal… but you seem to be mixing the two up as you see it… and that isn’t working for you.  

Do you have a tow bar ?  (I’m sure the farmer does) … and it might just be better to scrap the caravan or otherwise get rid.  One less hassle once it’s dealt with.  I’m not blaming you in the is shitty time… I’m just saying your choosing what legally vs morally and the farmer from your description seemed to start off in a non-legal manner though perhaps with poor timing.

The real point is this isn’t helping you or your parents… and a lot of this is just shit that happens.  You have your own family to support so getting rid of as many of these as possible will only make it simpler.

Bank … they are just sticking to a legal and unsympathetic stance.  I’d return it in spades.

Write a letter .. tell them there is no estate, tell them you or mother are NOT guarantors and then tell them you will be charging a £20 admin fee for every letter they send on this and every letter you have to reply to…(or whatever the cost is of a letter they send you for unauthorised overdrafts etc. – they can’t challenge it being a reasonable admin cost if its what THEY charge)

Make sure to inform them this is causing you stress … this leaves you open later to recover this money through small claims. It shouldn’t take a genius to work out that they are on a hiding to nothing and will start owing you money and a lot of cost on their side in what is essentially a fishing operation.

Funerals, Wakes and Friends and Family ….

Tricky…. but that’s done now and it is what it is.

We have just been through the death of a friend (my sons godfather) in what turned out to be natural circumstances according to the coroner.  He’d disappeared but he was want to do that anyway… and to cut to the chase a friend contacted the police who 3 days later forced entry and found the body.

He’d seen his family once in decades… as it happened this was a year ago and with a mutual friend otherwise we would not even have had an address for his family (brother). We agreed that as friends we’d co-fund the funeral but defer to his brother and in the end his brother organised remotely and flew over for the funeral.

We also very quickly agreed a moratorium on social media… and then assigned people to contact people individually.  In the end his brother pretty much asked us what we thought he’d want… and we organised 2 wakes with very different people but didn’t specifically exclude people from either or the funeral.

In the past I’ve seen funerals end up really horrible .. due to different parties etc.

My mum was upset my father’s mistress attended… (even though they were divorced far longer than married) and fell out with my cousin when his father (my uncle and godfather) was on his last legs before the funeral…  etc.

My aunt (same) fell out with my other cousin when her eldest sister (my aunt) was ill… I could go on… but the point is regrettably that sort of thing seems “normal” …

Hi Steve, thanks for the advice and sorry to hear you’ve gone through a crap time.

The caravan is a static caravan, that the farmer originally put on his own land. It would require a crane to move it, so there’s a bit more to it than just towing to a scrap yard.

The caravan has always been, and remains his property and his problem. Likewise the rent, especially as I imagine you only have the farmer’s word as to how much the arrears are, given that it was a dodgy cash in hand deal in the first place.

Plenty of farms are littered with delapidated bits of kit, so I doubt it is on the farmer’s urgent priority list, so it just seems like he using this claimed inconvenience to place additional pressure on your family members at a vulnerable time.

Don’t trouble yourself getting into a to and fro with the bloke. Focus on what’s important.

Sorry to heaer about your brother’s dead. My condolences.

Nothing much to add other than death brings out the best and the worst in people.

The caravan is a static caravan, that the farmer originally put on his own land. It would require a crane to move it, so there’s a bit more to it than just towing to a scrap yard.

Not a crane, but a specialist low loader lorry, to pick it up.  I know that as I had a 3 bed static in my garden when I built my house.

Think the oddest thing is putting it on SM before asking the family/Mother if that was okay……some people are just odd!

Really sorry for your loss!

Hi Steve, thanks for the advice and sorry to hear you’ve gone through a crap time.

No point apologising… and I’m just really letting you now it’s not that abnormal.. deaths often bring out the worst especially when different parties start blaming themselves and each oner for things they did or didn’t do or say.

Suddenly it’s too late…. but then people like the taxi friends are probably feeling bad etc. and show to themselves and each other they cared.

We all went through lots of “I hadn’t tried calling him in weeks” and initially a few of us wondered if it was suicide.  The police/coroner wouldn’t tap to us until his brother from the US contacted them etc. We wondered if he’d died of hypothermia … etc. etc. and  one of the friends became a drama queen and the official corners report was a heart attack.

The main thing is you have your own family to take care of … so the best thing (I think) is just to accept loads of crap often does happen in times like this… support your parents and don’t get mad at the friends .. they are all probably feeling shit and besides it won’t help any.

Screw the bank …

The caravan is a static caravan, that the farmer originally put on his own land. It would require a crane to move it, so there’s a bit more to it than just towing to a scrap yard.

Well that certainly changes stuff!

the bank have to try to reclaim the debt from the next of kin

This is utter bollox.  The bank can try and reclaim it from his estate, but not the next of kin.  It’s got sod all to do with the next of kin (unles they’re inheriting in the will)

OP.  Really sorry to hear.  IMHO some of the things you mention are truly weird, but a lot of them aren’t really that unexpected/unreasonable.  Try not to take them all badly.  Though I can quite see why you would under the circumstances.

I wrote that badly.  I meant it well.  good luck

Great advice from other posters.  I’ll only offer one thing.  No, it is not normal and you are not being oversensitive. In fact, the only normal thing about the whole very sad situation seems to be yours and your families reaction.

It’s no help, but I am very sorry for your loss.  Take care.

Jay

Sorry for your loss, dude.  This is the last thing you need.  Two things though:

Family aren’t liable for a deceased’s debts.

What you describe is harassment and illegal.

If I can offer some pragmatic advice that usually sorts out the bank (and anyone similar) and may well resolve the farmer.  Somebody (if there was a will then the executor; but if there isn’t then someone else* can administer the estate) needs to administer the financial affairs.  Esssentially you create a list of all the assets and debts at the time of death.  I know you think there are no assets, but there are albeit they are trivial.  E.g. the caravan and its contents have some value; there may be the odd chainsaw, van etc that your brother owned; if there was money in any bank account (it may be overdrawn now but was it at the time of death).  These should be the value you actually think it could get e.g. on eBay.  Add it up with a total.

then you list all the liabilities, this would include any overdue rent (so long as you believe it is genuine you take the farmers answer at face value), loans, credit cards, overdraft, the cost of the funeral etc.  Add it up with a total.

You clearly state these are estimates of the value at this time and ask them (bank, farmer etc) to confirm.  You state that you believe the estate will be insolvent.  Assuming the liabilities far exceed the assets the banks will usually confirm it is written off, especially for the sort of values you mentioned.  As the funeral costs come off before everything else if that outstrips the value of the caravan etc then nobody is getting any cash, and should go away quietly.  If when you do the sums it might be there is some cash to distribute I’d go and see citizens advice.

You may need to write to them in a month or two confirming the final balance after the assets have been disposed of.

putting myself in the farmer’s shoes probably what he wants most is not to be left with a rotting caravan on his land with no clarity on who owns it.  Depending on the value v’s removal cost it may be appropriate to write suggesting he can keep the caravan.

My advice would be to keep the letters formal and factual and then it usually gets dealt with quickly and effectively.

*there is a formal process to be appointed as the administrator of an estate if there is no will, it is not always strictly necessary and as the process is different in Scotland I am vague on the details.  You may not need to formally carry out the process if you (or another family member) write describing yourself as “administering the estate”.