Thats partly my point and also that the creation of an elite with special privilege is a long way from the teachings of Marx and Engels

That’s a joke for the SEO heads.

Lol at the tumbleweed.

I must read Das kapital again to see where Marx said that

I have 2000AD on my book shelves.No Marxism.
Mind you, they both are directed towards totalitarian regimes.

Thats partly my point and also that the creation of an elite with special privilege is a long way from the teachings of Marx and Engels

Which no doubt helps to explain why North Korea removed all references to communism from its constitution many years. Even a regime renowned for its bullshitting and blatant dishonesty couldn’t maintain that ridiculous pretence.

It doesn’t even maintain the leading role of the working-class in its constitution but instead that of the military.

The terms ‘left wing’ and ‘right wing’ only really apply in political systems where more than one wing is permitted. As soon as a purportedly left wing/communist/socialist/democratic government starts putting its political opponents in gulags, they are by default simply totalitarian/fascist.

Aye.  Its the old ” you can put a cat in a kennel and call it rover but it will never be a dog”

How does it self-identify?

I think of it as a circle rather than a continuum – the far left and far right loop around and meet at the far side

they are by default simply totalitarian/fascist.

Fascism is a right wing ideology. Totalitarianism on the other hand is simply a means of exercising power – it is not an ideology in itself. This is why you can gave both right wing and left wing totalitarian regimes.

Unless of course you also deny that Hitler was right wing, which is self-evidently absurd.

Some of these posts are like reading Animal Farm without the animals. Marxist ideals are great in principle and as a philosophical debate. They fall on their arse when they hit people though because people are generally dicks. Everyone’s equal except for the pigs.

I find it difficult to see the difference in extreme regimes. Dictatorship, facist, totalitarian etc. They all seem to have one thing in common. A **** nutter in charge, normally with a moustache and questionable hairstyle.

They all seem to have one thing in common. A **** nutter in charge, normally with a moustache and/or questionable hairstyle.

Are you, too, denying that North Korea is a left wing regime?

Let’s see, a totalitarian 3 class state (prole, elite, deity status) where the rich enjoy great privilege and freedoms unavailable to the lower classes. Yes, I am. North Korea has enjoyed communist support but AFAIK went their seperate idealogical ways before the ceasefire was even declared.

Are you one of those people who claim the Nazis were socialists as well?

Some of these posts are like reading Animal Farm without the animals.

In what way are “some of these posts” like reading Animal Farm?

This thread is about the desirability of allowing someone who proudly flaunts their custom-made belt buckle with a Nazi SS insignia into your home to do some work.

It somehow got sidetracked into whether a communist party is left-wing, despite the self-evident fact that it clearly is – in respect to the accepted definition of the term.

How is this resembling a George Orwell novel? It’s not obvious to me.

How is this resembling a George Orwell novel? It’s not obvious to me.

Well the DPRK certainly has more than a whiff of 1984 to it.

In discussing the failings of supposed left wing regimes due to the actions of the few/elite being contradictory to the founding principles of left wing ideology.

They aren’t really left or right. Moustache and/or bad haircut regimes is what they are.

The thread has gone rather off track hasn’t it?

Back to the OP

Well the DPRK certainly has more than a whiff of 1984 to it.

Well maybe it does. However the allegation was “Some of these posts are like reading Animal Farm without the animals”.

I am left wondering whose posts have been sounding like Animal Farm without the animals.

It somehow got sidetracked into whether a communist party is left-wing, despite the self-evident fact that it clearly is – in respect to the accepted definition of the term.

Probably needs a different thread but I’d disagree with this. Most communist states have had the power in the hands of the few not the many. That literally goes against the dictionary definition of the word. Communism the ideal versus in practice are miles apart due to the commonly known moustache/haircut principle.

However the allegation was “Some of these posts are like reading Animal Farm without the animals”.

Allegation? It was the start of a post that ended with blaming moustaches for dictatorships. Go make a cup of tea or something ffs

That literally goes against the dictionary definition of the word.

No it doesn’t go against the dictionary definition of “left-wing”.

It is not about whether you approve or not of a regime that defines if it is left-wing,

It was the start of a post that ended with blaming moustaches

That made it seem like reading Animal Farm?

Yeah you could probably do with a cup of tea. Might help to calm down a tad.

I didn’t say left wing I said communist. Go Google communist ideology versus actuality and behold pages of results defining differences and why it doesn’t work because of the human element. I’ll go make a brew whilst I wait for the obvious to dawn on you.

You know what, I can’t be arsed. I made a light hearted post that at least two other people clearly understood yet it’s become an allegation because you’ve decided it is.

Think I need a break from this place. The seriousness and need to find an argument where there isn’t one is boring.

I didn’t say left wing I said communist

Yeah you decided to discuss whether communism ‘works’ or not, which was even further away from the thread topic.

The claim was made that the CPSU was not left-wing, that is clearly nonsense.

How’s the cup of tea?

The debate was already in place before I entered the thread. I was making a light hearted jibe at **** moustaches and why communism doesn’t work in principle due to the few (pigs, people, moustaches, whatever) royally **** it up for the many.

The claim was made that the CPSU was not left-wing, that is clearly nonsense.

I’ve not even mentioned the CPSU, that was someone else. Tea is nice thanks. Have you made one, possibly with sedatives added?

Yeah you decided to discuss whether communism ‘works’ or not, which was even further away from the thread topic.

I outlined why it doesn’t work. Threads always go off topic here. It’s like a feature. Have we been visiting a different forum?

How’s the cup of tea? That’s me done, bye!

I was making a light hearted jibe at **** moustaches

Ah, the pigs had moustaches, I didn’t know that! I have never read anything by George Orwell.

Goats had beards, so that rules them out.

We are safe with goats.

Are you one of those people who claim the Nazis were socialists as well?

No, as you can see above, I’m one of those people that says Nazis are fascists, which is a right wing ideological position.

@funkmasterp and @scaredypants are the people suggesting that the North Korean regime is not left wing, because something something No True Socialist.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoTrueScotsman

I’m claiming that as well, we’ve all explained our working.

Now, can you explain why they are socialist/ left wing?

Fascist regimes can vary significantly in characteristics but the one characteristic which they all tend to share is the elevated role of the military.

In fascist Italy, Germany, Japan, and Spain, civilians could, and were, court-martialed.

So in that respect at least North Korea shares a strong characteristic with fascist regimes. However I think it is too difficult to categorize NK into any specific ideology. Officially NK claims that its ideology is “Juche” as defined by Kim Il-Sung, aka the Great Leader.

However the North Korean people are told that a double rainbow and a glowing new star appeared in the heavens above a mountain range to herald the birth of Kim Jong Il, son of the Great Leader and aka the Dear Leader.

Kim Jong-il’s birth was in fact an act of divine providence. There aren’t many political ideologies which make that sort of claim. I think a caliphate might be the closest you get to that. And the terms left-wing and right-wing don’t usually apply to them.

So just to sum up…

“Communist countries” are left wing because the say they are despite the fact that they clearly do not operate with left wing ideologies.

But the national socialists are right wing because despite the name they do not operate with left wing tendencies.

That’s some special logic right there.

they clearly do not operate with left wing ideologies.

You mean small detail like state control of the economy and no private ownership?

It is a special kind of logic which claims that communism isn’t left-wing.

I am left wondering whether in this strange world of logic someone like Tony Blair is left-wing. Can in fact the term left-wing be narrowly defined as “anyone I agree with”?

And would it be fair for a Tory embarrassed by the label right-wing given to the Nazis claim that they were obviously left-wing?

The ideal of communism is very much a left wing utopia. The reality is not. Communism works in theory, as a philosophy, but not in real life. It has been attempted and failed miserably every time. It ends with an elite, despotic group clinging to power in most instances. They might call themselves Communists but they’ve simply cherry picked the bits of the philosophy that they want and ignored the rest. I honestly don’t think it could ever work. It’s an old philosophy and times have changed.

You come across as an extremely clever individual on here Ernie, and I genuinely look forward to reading your posts, so I’m genuinely befuddled by the fact you’re not grasping this. Takes about a minute of searching to find a plethora of papers and discussions about this very thing.

Communism works in theory, as a philosophy, but not in real life.

Whether that is true or not is totally irrelevant to whether it is left-wing or not.

Can you really not grasp the fact that the term left-wing doesn’t only apply to what you personally approve of?

It’s not something I approve or not. I’m not talking about the term left wing. I’m talking about the reality of communism not being left wing. It clearly isn’t. It’s an extreme in 99% of cases, some form of dictatorship in most.

Like an extremist in religious terms it has some of the same foundations but has been warped to the point where it’s barely recognisable as the original thing. The first definition I find of left wing is this.

the section of a political party or system that advocates greater social and economic equality, and typically favours socially liberal ideas; the socialist or progressive group or section.

Does that sound like China, Russia, North Korea?

We’re never going to agree and I genuinely don’t like arguing. I’ll continue to read the thread but not take part. Apologies if I’ve angered or offended anyone. Clearly just different views and clashing a bit. It never ends well 😕

Apologies if I’ve angered or offended anyone. Clearly just different views and clashing a bit. It never ends well 😕

Why on earth would you have angered or offended anyone? Nothing that you have said sounds offensive to me.

IMO it’s a bit weird to claim that Mao’s China, for example, wasn’t left-wing, it clearly was, far-left in fact, but I can’t see how that would make anyone angry or feel offended.

So just to sum up…

“Communist countries” are left wing because the say they are despite the fact that they clearly do not operate with left wing ideologies.

But the national socialists are right wing because despite the name they do not operate with left wing tendencies.

That’s some special logic right there

Have you considered applying a Marxian analysis and looking at who owns the means of production in Nazi Germany and Juche North Korea? It would probably clear up your confusion.

Deleted….. due to confused understanding of the point being made!