Maybe its corrupt to some degree, I suppose old money holds much of the power in every country. However the widespread endemic corruption I saw in Spain growing up I have not seen here. During the late 200 and early 2010 corruption cases were popping up left and right, strange was the day were a new corruption case was not being discussed or new information on a current corruption case came to light.

gobuchul
Member

It’s laughable that people actually think we are the most corrupt Country in Europe.

In fact, we are one of the least corrupt countries in the World.

Have you ever done business in Italy? That’s something pretty shocking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

OK, like I said it depends on where you’re looking- that sort of day to day corruption is very obvious and in your face. Whereas the sort of corruption that passes hundreds of millions of quid to companies with no assets so that they can fail to deliver essential PPE that results not just in them making a fortune at taxpayer’s expense but directly in the deaths of NHS staff and patients, that’s harder to perceive than putting a £50 in your passport but it’s not better.

There are two types of corruption being discussed which is whay the differnce of opinion. Yes we have almost no petty graft of mid or low rank public officials needing to be paid off. But Westminster especially but not exclusively the tories is incredibly corrupt. almost all the tory MPs are being paid by multiple businesses to promote the needs of those businesses. Also the fact that tory party donors get their needs meet.

On that type of corruption we are one of the worst in the world

We are also the world centre for money laundering and tax avoidance / evasion which is in itself a form of corruption – expecially when MPs are in it right up to their necks. Rees Mogg runs a tax evasion company. David Camerons family fortune is based entirely of Tax evasion – hence we have some of the laxest laws i the world on tax evasion

these days we’ve imported the Putin model of just denying it and carrying on. Post Brexit that’s not going to improve.

Indeed. What it is very convenient for the ‘government’ to do is portray all red tape as bad. Not necessarily the case. If you delved a bit further back behind each law or requirement you discover the particular bit of malpractice it was created in order to stop. In 99.99% of cases I would reckon it was something along the lines of “to stop profiteering at the expense of safety/competition/environmental damage etc”.

This government’s bonfire of red tape is just a trojan horse for a race to the bottom. A race they are going to choose to initiate with a No Deal on 31/12/20.

There’s an assumption here that capitalism, the exploitation of labour by the owners and controllers of capital, can be made honest, squeaky clean and bereft of corruption. Quite a novel idea really.

TJ – banking system I agree UK is a world leader there
Politicians? Our boys are just dipping their grubby little toes in the water compared to most other countries, southern Europe included. All other countries have elites and privilege too, very few places are good at social mobility. Not saying the UK is good just don’t underestimate the global reach of avarice.

People get all hissy on here if you suggest you want to pay your plumber in cash! 🙂

So we’re probably not that corrupt.

Acoba.

I do believe it is. And so does George Monbiot

On that type of corruption we are one of the worst in the world

Based on the methodology they post, the CPI is more focused on the sort of corruption you are referring to, particularly on ‘Political integrity’ and ‘dirty money’ and I’d trust their assessment over individuals perceptions.
So the UK isn’t close to one of the worst in the world.

Doesn’t mean things aren’t getting worse, or that there’s not a lot of work to do to get better.

So we’re probably not that corrupt.

It’s simple… the people of the UK, in my experience, are pretty much free of corruption… and I would include civil servants in that… where as the corruption of the team now at the heart of the UK government are gangsters and spiffs working in the interests of their paymasters and business parters, and they don’t even seem to feel the need to hide their corruption… it’s rubbed in our faces.

So the UK isn’t close to one of the worst in the world.

Based on data collected before this “government” got its “do what we like” majority?

The point is in Westminster the corruption is legal. Its not ” dirty money” Its tiotally legal to hire an MP as a consultant on a million quid a year, give them no work to do and then wait for the laws favourable to you to roll in. Thats why it does not appear in corruption lists – its been legalised

And so does George Monbiot

Yeah, but would you trust a man with those sideburns?! 😀

dannyh
Subscriber

Indeed. What it is very convenient for the ‘government’ to do is portray all red tape as bad.

While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course

A corrupt country? Jury’s out for me.

A corrupt government? Worst I’m aware of since I came into the world in late ’73.

There’s a balance to be struck. If the government had put PPE procurement out to a 3 year tender process and then awarded the contract to BAE Systems for delivery in 2026 at 1000x the price of Bob on the market would the taxpayer have got better value for money? Would The Guardian be moaning – yes? BAE Systems would definitely spin up a new Ltd company with no other turnover to do the work.

In your personal life you might well hire a builder because you know them from the pub or you went to school with them and so are confident they’d do a good job. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, our trust is so low we instinctively assume the worst.

I’m just worried we’re turning into a culture where it’s more important to be seen to do the right thing than to actually do the right thing.

While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course

A price worth paying, obviously.

Where you have people you will have corruption of one kind or another

Depress yourself with the slightly tin foil hat http://www.recusant-nine.com

For the Rossendale dwellers the £10million “empty homes” scandal and the Futures Park clean up that wasn’t etc etc

The point is in Westminster the corruption is legal. Its not ” dirty money” Its tiotally legal to hire an MP as a consultant on a million quid a year, give them no work to do and then wait for the laws favourable to you to roll in. Thats why it does not appear in corruption lists – its been legalised

Good job hollyrood is a shining beacon of hope supported by Scottish local government exceptional track record

its hugely depressing. For years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests. Those who fund the party get to have the most say.

But none of this is really a surprise and the public voted the way the media steered them.

I’m just worried we’re turning into a culture where it’s more important to be seen to do the right thing than to actually do the right thing.

Er… so paying millions to shell companies owned by your mates to not deliver anything… leaving people at risk for months… is that doing the right thing…? Taking millions of pounds from property developers, and then proposing the law be changed so that the little people can’t challenge them… is that doing the right thing? Elevating your brother and your financial backers to the house of Lords… is that doing the right thing?

A late friend, a very bright socialist who happened to have two little building companies west of London, a pub in the west of Ireland as well as being an academic writer. I asked him about any corruption in planning etc. He said there was an envelope with £500 (1990s) that never stopped going round. He said the only time someone refused it he’d wished the ground had opened up beneath him. The costs just got passed onto the consumer. Only anecdotal but I took it seriously coming from him.

Very corrupt from the subtler use of the old boy network and establishment doing favours for each other to the other more blatant end of party funding and cushy jobs for ex ministers.

It goes back decades if not longer it’s just becoming more blatant and even more consequence free of caught such as the recent planning permission case well as the ones highlighted by the op

The Transparency International Corruption Index has us at no. 12, out of 180, so really not that bad.

If you’ve ever lived in, or done business in countries towards the bottom of the index, you’ll understand that we do very well.

Big things in our favour are a free press, so all the examples of corruption cited above are actually in the public domain. Corruption here can’t be that bad, or the journalists would be dead. Like they are in Russia.

Other huge thing is the rule of law. The government don’t hire the judges. They were successfully challenged over their decision to prorogue Parliament. They lost. The Jenrick planning decision was challenged and upheld, so he’s been ‘caught’ and forced to a. change the decision and b. explain his actions to Parliament (and the press).

There’s also a free and fair electoral system in the UK. There are limitations, but corruption is definitely not one. So we’re pretty good there too. If people don’t like the actions of politicians, you can vote freely. Try doing that in Libya at the moment.

In short, there will be a vote in a few years time and politicians will be accountable for their actions:

– in the press
– at the ballot box

In the meantime, they’re still accountable to an independent judiciary.

And maybe the actions of their unelected advisors will affect the vote too.

The problem is that the electorate see all this and still choose what they choose. That’s not corruption though.

And finally, to really play devil’s advocate. During a national health emergency, faced with the fatal consequences of a lack of PPE, do you:

A) Follow the approved Government procurement process, using full due diligence and open tendering, scheduled to last several weeks at best, and by the time it’s finished the ‘winner’ may not have any PPE anyway

Or

B) Take up the offer from an old school mate who may or may not be able to help, but seems to know what he is talking about and could have some gear with you in a week at not much over market value?

In the circumstances. is Option B really that bad? It may not turn up, it may be over-priced and it may be crap, but at least it’s trying something. The rush for PPE was an appalling situation, but definitely needed addressing urgently.

Basically, the view of corruption seems to come down on whether you see things as glass half empty or full.

Not sure I can be bothered to detail C, D & E for your strawman. Someone else can.

Ah, sod it…

C) reply to the UK companies already providing PPE that are offering to ramp up at speed

D) accept the offer of at scale Europe wide procurement from the EU

Someone else can do more if they want… I’m off on the bike now…

I’ve spent the last 30 years doing business with companies in just about every country I can think of. I know we love to whinge and complain. But compared to the vast majority of those countries the uk is squeaky clean. Ultra clean. But of course, there are exceptions. I don’t think there is such a place as a country without corruption.

ajaj, you wrote…

There’s a balance to be struck. If the government had put PPE procurement out to a 3 year tender process and then awarded the contract to BAE Systems for delivery in 2026 at 1000x the price of Bob on the market would the taxpayer have got better value for money? Would The Guardian be moaning – yes? BAE Systems would definitely spin up a new Ltd company with no other turnover to do the work.

A proper public sector tender process with multi million £ value would typically take c6 months.

Given the circumstances, no-one is suggesting the requirements should have been tendered in an OJEU compliant process but…

Contracts awarded without competition – based on ’emergency procurement’ argument; fair enough.
Contracts awarded to companies with no experience and contacts with Tory party – stinks of corruption.
Ooh look, an opportunity to rip-off the taxpayer; I’ve got no experience of what’s required but that’s no problem.
and
In an emergency you would always look to someone who knows what they’re doing so using proven suppliers would have been the default choice – known quantity, relevant expertise, logistics and payment terms in place.
That didn’t happen; there were conscious – and probably, guided – decisions on contract awards.
I’m amazed there haven’t been any challenges under the procurement regs from other ‘economic operators’ unless they’re scared off by the possibility of being excluded from future tenders or having existing contracts terminated; illegal under the regs but where there’s a will…

I’ve sourced from China and it’s likely that contracts would require 25 – 30% upfront with the balance to be paid at time of shipping; this provides little or no redress in event of short delivery or faulty goods.
I would be surprised if escrow a/cs were used or if the companies involved in this used procurement agents on the ground in China.

But compared to the vast majority of those countries the uk is squeaky clean

Apart from being one of the main centres for money laundering for thieving dictators/oligarchs/organised crime you mean?

In the circumstances. is Option B really that bad? It may not turn up, it may be over-priced and it may be crap, but at least it’s trying something. The rush for PPE was an appalling situation, but definitely needed addressing urgently

Sounds like a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome. Listen to yourself. Why was there such a rush for PPE btw?

Did you watch War Dogs? The kids did deliver haha.

Have worked over many countries. The UK is a paradise to do business in compared to most of the EU / US. Don’t even have to travel to third world to experience pain. Try Japan for a laugh!

its hugely depressing. For years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests. Those who fund the party get to have the most say.

Ha, I never thought of it like this. Absolutely hit the nail there.

Blackflag
Subscriber

For years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests.

Yup. Miliband’s greatest failing- when Cameron kept throwing “you’re funded by the unions” he said “I know, isn’t it terrible” instead of “Aye, we’re funded by normal working people, and proud of it. You’re bought and paid for by millionaires and hedge funds, and you give them peerages for it”

From the article faerie linked on the previous page

Saviano said that there was a hidden danger of voting to leave the European Union that was little discussed. He said if the UK left the EU, it would undermine joint attempts to fight illegal economies

Yes, but it wasn’t hidden so far as I understood, it’s why the ERG were so keen to leave and funded a campaign to convince the voters.

andreweay,

What you’ve just written is perhaps the best apology for corruption I’ve ever seen.

Wether the country is corrupt is one thing. What’s for sure is this Gov’t is the most corrupt we’ve had in my 50 years and getting more blatantly corrupt by the day.

Internationally, Post Brexit Britain will be seen as a corrupt country, irrespective of how uncorrupt the country is as a whole. This Gov’t however is exceptionally corrupt and that’s their brand, it is the image they have painted on the plane and its going to tarnish us all.

While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course

Incidentally, of course, all this new (and totally unnecessary) red tape will create lots of opportunities for spivs go-ahead chaps to set up ‘consultancies’ to guide existing SMEs through said red tape.

The city and:

https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/tax-havens-for-millionaires-around-the-world-2019-11

I think there are a few people (P-Jay) confusing a SEVERE lack of social mobility with corruption. we don’t have social mobilty, and i reckon its getting worse at the moment, and tht is very VERY bad, however tht is a different issue to corruption imv. we don’t have an accepted system of patronage, or baksesh, yes it happens but it isn’t an accepted cultural thing. which makes it feel worse but it does happen a LOT less here I think.

but it does happen a LOT less here I think

Than where?

https://www.euronews.com/2017/04/03/the-uk-is-the-most-corrupt-country-in-the-world-anti-mafia-journalists-saviano

At the level I live and work at we are a long way off most of the places I lived in the Caribbean.
At a level where I suffer the consequences of misdeeds way above me then **** yeah.

Than where?

Plenty of places. Russia for a good start. Got a mate in Malaysia, nothing gets done without a bribe there. I know you like to shit on this country as often as possible but at least try to get some perspective. Old boy networks are nothing special, look at Ivy League US, exactly the same. We may be many a thing but most corrupt country in the world we are not, and I’d take the word of someone objectively indexing corruption over a hysterical journalist opinion writer.