Predictable.Indefensible
[/quote]FTFY

You bored Scotroutes.

Yes it depends on context, we all have probably called a friends a bunch of **** when they’ve played a trick on us, it’s not meant offensively. However, the word is still a swear word unlike Jock, a swear word which is on the swear filter so using characters to get around it is classed as swear filter avoidance which breaks the STW forum rules.

Of course you knew that.

Nationalists have used false propaganda to fool people into a resentment of the UK that I believe stops just short of Union Jack flag burning. As I already stated, I would not like to be a No canvaser next year wearing a rossette with a Union Jack on it.
I am concerned to the point where candidates for a No vote will not be safe campaigning in many areas next year.

I have read the above again and it still look like you are suggesting people who are campaigning for the Union are in danger of attack. I am still also waiting for you to provide evidence of this nationalist campaign that stops just short of flag burning(your words again)as others have asked you for.
Only one side is focusing on positives and it isn’t the bitter together unionists. Why don’t you and our other colonial masters tell us why we would be better off with you,instead of as a free country. We have had 18 months of England redrawing maritime boundaries,and refusing to discuss any terms of indy, while all the time belittling the very idea of independence and warning us that we would be living in holes in the ground and eating our young. The SNP produced their blueprint yesterday,where is the Westminster counterpart? what exactly are the reasons that should convince us to stay? For 300 years we have had a government that has been overwhelmingly unrepresentative of the Scottish electorate,post devo we get a chance to start changing things,deal with it.
It is a fact that the Westminster scaremongering campaign will win (unlike last time when a majority voted yes) However please don’t think the issue will go away. It will be close enough to raise the head of devo max, which Westminster is terrified of; the one clever move Cameron made was forcing yes or no and avoiding more devolved powers.
Wee point from a History and Modern Studies teacher; after the last vote, the Government made such cuts to funding in Scotland that the Sec State for Scotland had to go begging as the budget would not have been enough to keep the lights on. When the no vote wins,the backlash will start from Westminster.

BTW; Could Winston Dog please come up here and campaign for the union? May help to make up the minds of some of the undecided.

Sorry winston,

How have I offended you exactly?

Of course you knew that.

I didn’t!
I thought that the intent was a decider on moderation?
I remember it being explained by a moderator that words like “nob” and “cock” were permitted (or at least not wallopped) unless directed as an insult at a contributor.
Of course, I could have imagined this. And the C bomb is quite a harsh word to some.

BTW; Could Winston Dog please come up here and campaign for the union? May help to make up the minds of some of the undecided.

Sorry I think the Scottish people should decide their own fate. Besides wrong thread.

How have I offended you exactly?

You haven’t at all. I’m just not sure what World you live in.

I thought that the intent was a decider on moderation?
I remember it being explained by a moderator that words like “nob” and “cock” were permitted (or at least not wallopped) unless directed as an insult at a contributor.

No that would be for being offensive not the using the word itself. As the C word is so harsh it blocked with a few other swear words.

Why don’t you and our other colonial masters

Nice stereotyping of English people there. Again – people claim independence has nothing to do with hating the English then rant on about how we’re all bastards. 😕

that should convince us to stay? For 300 years we have had a government that has been overwhelmingly unrepresentative of the Scottish electorate,post devo we get a chance to start changing things,deal with it.

Try living in the north of England. You already get a much better deal than we do.

Woody
1 No one who called me ‘Jock’ has ever meant it in any way other than derogatory.
2 For what it’s worth no one I know has ever called me a Jock
I haven’t changed anything.
3 I was a student at the time we didn’t have a tv in our flat My friend and I had gone to the halls of residence to watch the football. On the way home afterwards we were attacked out of the blue by 5 guys who had been walking down the street behind us.
4 Yes thanks for asking

Q: Is jock offensive?
A: some people are offended by it, so yes.
5 pages of people trying to justify it and ignoring answers they don’t like to a question they asked.

As the user of a term, be it jock, **** or anything else, you don’t get to decide if it’s offensive or not to he person hearing it. As you’ve newly discovered that some/most don’t like it the decent thing would be to hold tour hands up, admit you didn’t realise and not use the term again. Entrenching your position in schoolboy excuses like “banter” and “having a laugh” doesn’t reflect well on you at all.

FWIW, I don’t have a particular problem with Jock, like others I just use it as shorthand to assume the person who said it is an arse. On the odd occasion abroad when I’ve been confused for English, on the other hand, I’ve been properly offended!

Why don’t you and our other colonial masters

Aw C’mon duckkers. That’s certainly not the case, is it?
Scottish (and Welsh) MPs have more say in how England is run than vice versa what with devolution and all.

I say dissolve the lot. One out, all out.

unknown that’s pretty well put some individuals find it offensive, if someone says they don’t like it then apologise and stop using it their presence. Others don’t find it offensive though so it could be used with them. Personally I never met a Scotsman who has been offended by it.

On the odd occasion abroad when I’ve been confused for English, on the other hand, I’ve been properly offended!

Why’s that then? Wouldn’t be anything to do with some kind of anti-English bigotry would it?

Y’know, i hear/see this term ‘English colonialists’ being mentioned and it raises a wry smile.
My personal condition is that of all the people i know who have spoken about this only two of them want Scotland to stay in the Union – and they are transposed Scots.
The rest are extremely in favour of Scottish Independence, so far from being colonialists it would seem many English are exactly the opposite when it comes to this subject. In fact, the one way the yes campaign could guarantee a win would be to include English voters in the referendum!

grum – Member

Why don’t you and our other colonial masters

Nice stereotyping of English people there. Again – people claim independence has nothing to do with hating the English then rant on about how we’re all bastards.

Scotland was treated as a resource of materials and labour for 300 years. Once heavy industry was finished and the oil had a shelf life, we are allowed the opp to leave.Oh,and show(feel free to quote) where I demonstrate that wanting self determination is a form of hating the English. Especially in the middle of a five page thread started on an abusive term for Scots.

You poor dear. Did you call the police to report the incident of inciting racial hatred?

No. But there’s a way of shaking someone’s hand while attacking a pressure point at the base of the thumb – do it hard enough and you can actually break their thumb. I didn’t go that far.

It’s not racist because being Scottish isn’t a race. But it is annoying, lazy stereotyping, and a bit intimidating when surrounded by people doing it.

Scotland was treated as a resource of materials and labour for 300 years.

So was the NE, NW, Wales, the Black Country the list goes on…..

Even the vast majority Londoners have been exploited.

It’s got nothing to do with being Scottish.

Personally I never met a Scotsman who has been offended by it.

Me neither……… until now!

Must be a lot of sensitive little flowers on STW.

Scotland was treated as a resource of materials and labour for 300 years. Once heavy industry was finished and the oil had a shelf life, we are allowed the opp to leave.Oh,and show(feel free to quote) where I demonstrate that wanting self determination is a form of hating the English. Especially in the middle of a five page thread started on an abusive term for Scots.

I’m not denying all sorts of legitimate grievances the Scottish might have including a pathetic no campaign – but referring to all English people as colonial masters is a bit of a weak and rude stereotype, as most of us have had precisely bugger all to do with it. Never mind that much of what gets blamed on the English was carried out with the full collusion of the Scottish great and good.

It’s not racist because being Scottish isn’t a race. But it is annoying, lazy stereotyping, and a bit intimidating when surrounded by people doing it.

I would argue it was probably intended in a friendlier/jokier manner than annoying, lazy stereotyping like calling English people ‘colonial masters’ which seems borne out of genuine bitterness.

winston_dog – Member

Scotland was treated as a resource of materials and labour for 300 years.

So was the NE, NW, Wales, the Black Country the list goes on…..

Even the vast majority Londoners have been exploited.

It’s got nothing to do with being Scottish.

But we have an opportunity to do something about it.

But we have an opportunity to do something about it.

No you don’t. The reality is that the vast majority are going to be exploited in a 21st Century style. The rich still get richer.

Unless Billy the Fish is going to create a workers utopia when he get’s independence? Doesn’t really tie in with reducing corporation tax does it?

But we have an opportunity to do something about it.

I’m genuinely pleased for you, and I am broadly in favour of independence despite some misgivings. However, why not stop with the ‘us poor put upon Scots will finally be free of the evil English’ routine, given that you’re already in a better position than most people in England outside the SW?

Personally I never met a Scotsman who has been offended by it.

Me neither……… until now!

Must be a lot of sensitive little flowers on STW.

You can say that again!

On the odd occasion abroad when I’ve been confused for English, on the other hand, I’ve been properly offended!

In a pub is Slovakia last year, me and a mate had a very large and very pissed Yugoslavian* gentleman chest-bumping us and shouting in our faces that we were “inglishhh pig dog motherfrankers”.

A trip to the local A&E looked inevitable.

Fortunately we pointed out to him that we were in fact Scottish and suddenly we were his best mates 😀

It’s a useful tool to have. Far less messy than glassing someone.

.

* Yes I know Yugoslavia doesn’t exist any more, but that was how he self-identified and I wasn’t going to argue.

Must be a lot of sensitive little flowers on STW.
You can say that again!

People used to say that (and some still do) about the term “****”.

I grew up in Scotland using that term in all innocence.
(Often compounding the offence by using it to describe people from India).

When I realised it caused offence I just stopped using it.
I didn’t say “Aren’t the **** sensitive little flowers”, y’see?

Personally I never met a Scotsman who has been offended by it.

Me neither……… until now!

Must be a lot of sensitive little flowers on STW.

You can say that again!

Offended is probably the wrong term.

What irritates, is being forced to talk to an English person who thinks it’s OK to call you a “jock” within moments of meeting you. We don’t get offended, just want to get away from having to talk to you asap.

I’m not sensitive in the slightest, but I do have a low tolerance for dickheads.

You haven’t at all. I’m just not sure what World you live in.

One where I need to get along with a more diverse range of people, clearly our life experiences are a bit different, but I can base my thoughts and opinions on my own life and not much else…

Your “Clare in the community” (outing you as an R4 listener) reference sort of indicates how you percieve “people like me” who just don’t really do casual racism as a matter of course, I can’t help it if I was raised to be nice… Fine then I’m a pinko, lefty, hand wringer if that makes me easier to understand, I’m still not going to stride round the office calling the people I work with “Jock”, “Paddy” or “Taffty”, I’d be quietly taken to one side and given a talking to…

Initially I had sort of agreed with one of your points, in as much as using an ostensibly “Racist” term between mates in the right context as “Banter” is on occasion acceptable. But you seem so keen on vehemently defending your right to call people names, and determines to drag Scottish independance into the mix, that I’d rather not think of myself as sharing your ideas on just about anything TBH.

People used to say that (and some still do) about the term “****”.

FFS are you seriously comparing the two? I have never heard of any Scots getting their windows smashed for living in England? Or organisations putting up posters and handing out leaflets to get them to “go home”?

How the Scots occasionally treat English north of the border on the other hand….

Aye all the english love the Scots and treat them with respect and dignity and always have – just check the national anthem for proof off that one 😉

Its nothing like the level of abuse in the term **** that is a certainty as well but it may not always be banter.
Yes some folks on both sides dont like the other – its neither a Scottish or an English issues but an asshat issue , both “tribes ” have them

clearly our life experiences are a bit different,

Your probably right there.

Last little project I did at work involved a team of 5, 1 Englishman, 1 Spaniard, 1 Aussie, 1 Filipino and 1 Singaporean.

I regularly work overseas with a completely random mix of nationalities. I am happy to use the terms Yank, Aussie, Kiwi, Jock, Paddy, Yarpi and similar. IME these words are not used in a particularly nasty way and 99% of the time are taken in the spirit they are used.

I do not use the words **** or Flip Flop or any obviously racist terms.

(outing you as an R4 listener)

🙂

FFS are you seriously comparing the two?

Yes, yes I am. Can you seriously not see any parallel?

My school age self meant no offence and nothing derogatory by the term “****”.
Considered purely as a word it was, and still is, an entirely reasonable way to shorten “Pakistani”.
It has been made offensive because people repeatedly used it when intending offence.

Similarly many people here claim no offence by the term “Jock”, despite several “Jocks” saying they don’t like the term because in their experience it is used by someone intending to cause offence.

Drac – Moderator
unknown that’s pretty well put some individuals find it offensive, if someone says they don’t like it then apologise and stop using it their presence. Others don’t find it offensive though so it could be used with them. Personally I never met a Scotsman who has been offended by it.

Largely I agree, and I generally live my life that way, when dealing with reasonable people but there is a line where some people just get offended by everything so it then doesn’t particularly apply as they are just taking the concept beyond the extreme. Particularly people getting offended when humour is involved in a fairly benign way.

Point in case is people getting offended by getting called a Jock, as technically I’m a Scotman(I don’t put a lot of stock in nationalism in a person identity sense) and I know of no-one in ‘real life’ that would get offended by the comment either.

ps, re the use of **** understood, never knew that was frowned upon.

Putting arguments for and against Jock being perjorative aside for a moment, isn’t it a bit, well, old fashioned? If I was introduced to someone, heard a Scottish accent, and said ‘oh, you’re a Jock!’ I’d feel like a right bell-end

Putting arguments for and against Jock being perjorative aside for a moment, isn’t it a bit, well, old fashioned? If I was introduced to someone, heard a Scottish accent, and said ‘oh, you’re a Jock!’ I’d feel like a right bell-end

+1

The only thing I’ve noticed from this thread is that the Scottish don’t like to be called Jocks, but seem to find it perfectly acceptable to slag the English off at every chance they get… How does that work…?

For what it’s worth, I don’t give a care in the world what anybody calls me, it’s all down to how it’s said. If they are a stranger or a friend, it’s still down to the context…

And also, I have never called anyone a Jock with the intention of being offensive, and call me naive, but I didn’t actually think the Scottish found that offensive. I stand corrected, and it’s not something I will be doing again.

duckman – Member

Scotland was treated as a resource of materials and labour for 300 years.In fairness, large parts of England were used exactly the same way. More a case of the rulers of the land taking the mickey out of the masses than any anti scottishness(there would have been plenty scots that got their fill of the profits of that)

samjgeorge86 – Member
The only thing I’ve noticed from this thread is that the Scottish don’t like to be called Jocks, but seem to find it perfectly acceptable to slag the English off at every chance they get… How does that work…?

works by you selectively reading only the bits you want to read in the thread!

I am English and have lived in Glasgow for 14 years . When having a laugh with scotish friends I find referring to them as scotch gets a much better reaction than jock . For what it’s worth I haven’t noticed any rise in anti englishness recently . I have only ever had a couple of problems and to be honest most of them have been while alcohol and football have been involved

I know of no-one in ‘real life’ that would get offended by the comment either.

Offence has many degrees.

When a stranger calls me “a Jock” I don’t run away crying or try to make something of it. I don’t contact the local Race Relations department. I don’t even write a stern letter to The Guardian.

I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and take it in good spirit.

But it’s a mental mark in my book.