Ideally I don’t want people in full time work to be reliant on the state. They’re working, pay them enough to live on rather than state top ups.

This +1000. Madness that a family in full time work needs benefits to get by.

Combined with a policy of affordable rented social housing on brownfield sites. Initial cost would be saved by long term savings our of the housing benefits budget.

Tories will struggle to get a majority IMO for a number of reasons
– the new expenses story will break
– young people will vote en masse this time around and won’t be voting Tory
– Remainers will vote en masse for labour or lib dem; there will be record turnout

I think we could be looking at another Tory-Lib Dem coalition, or even a Labour-Lib Dem coalition.

Interesing times…

@MoreCash agreed with everything in your post

Ring fencing the NHS budget is is popular, if the NHS gets more, everyone else has to get less. So taking from the disabled is a vote winner, just in a round about way.

This. Ditto education.

BTW I will give Brown credit for keeping us out of the euro

Basically if you have one eye on an election for a whole term it’s pretty hard to get a grip on spending – there’s never a right time.

Short-termism. Sums up the mess of our political system.

@badnewz the “expenses story” is simply about left and right pocket election spending, whether it was locally raised money or central funds. There are different pots / limits for each. Obviously lying on an official document is fraud so its serious but nothing like the nonsense which went on before.

Morecash – I was referring to the fact that Brown got us back into growth after the bankers crash and prior to the 2010 election (and growth actually fell when the Tories got in).

jambalaya – Member

@badnewz the “expenses story” is simply about left and right pocket election spending, whether it was locally raised money or central funds. There are different pots / limits for each. Obviously lying on an official document is fraud so its serious but nothing like the nonsense which went on before.

indeed, you absolutely must not mention Tory Sleaze!

tbf the Tories were running scared of the kippers at the time , they had to pull out all the stops and integrity and probity really is secondary to being in power

😉

@Kerley. Can you explain to me how damaging the middle classes will help social mobility?

Damaging? What by having to buy the next level of Audi down than they actually wanted? Or having one less holiday a year. Get some perspective.

There are more elderly people, more people in general and services simply need to be given the money to grow. If that means taxing middle classes and above then that is the way to do it. It doesn’t stop anyone becoming middle class and has no effect on social mobility.

If you want more tax income don’t start with punishing the middle classes, look at how you grow the middle classes then tax accordingly.

Wasn’t that the idea behind increasing the numbers going to university? Worked out well didn’t it?

Article here giving insight into the election expenses “scandal”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2017/03/70000-question-what-does-conservative-party-election-expenses-scandal%3famp

Most voters aren’t really concerned about who paid for the ridiculous battle bus. Central office will offer a sacrifice, pay the fines and it’ll all go away.

Wasn’t that the idea behind increasing the numbers going to university? Worked out well didn’t it?

That’s not really a reason to not try and lift people out of being poor. The tactic may have failed but that doesn’t devalue the objective.

Rules shouldn’t be broken, obviously, but basing your vote solely on whether a party has overspent and lied about their own campaign funding seems a bit stupid to me.

Given that there are so many better reasons to not vote Tory!

was it really about lifting folk out of poverty? Genuine question as i never really understood why Blair wanted 50% to go to uni – though i did not really listen that well to what he said.

The only ones who got rich were the providers of degrees and colleges ..its a boom industry for the factories that produce qualifications [ society has little use for]

4000 plus reasons not to vote Tory on http://calumslist.org damaging the middle class? Get bent

What by having to buy the next level of Audi down than they actually wanted?

As much as i enjoy demonising Audi drivers i don’t believe what you are suggesting will deliver the results when not performed in conjunction with wider policies.

All forms of revenue generating activities need to be addressed. Not just Audi drivers. And those that are in work need to be paid enough.

Middle class here. Might even be rich by Corbyn’s definition.
I don’t have a Audi. Couldn’t afford it / don’t really like it.
But then I try not to live on credit.

was it really about lifting folk out of poverty?

That’s a good question, I’m off for a Google.

I’m not sure what I’d be classed at, income is well below average but i listen to Radio 3.

As much as i enjoy demonising Audi drivers i don’t believe what you are suggesting will deliver the results when not performed in conjunction with wider policies.

All forms of revenue generating activities need to be addressed. Not just Audi drivers. And those that are in work need to be paid enough.

Wasn’t demonising Audi drivers. Was just an example of a car and the fact a lesser model may have to be purchased. i.e. hardly harming anyone.
Yes, all revenue generating actives need to be looked at – the point is that someone should be trying and starting at the top and middle not at the bottom.

Middle class here. Might even be rich by Corbyn’s definition.

Where I think this @us and them’ might trip up is the middle, where I think the majority of people actually are.

I’m struggling to tell if I’m part of Corbyn’s problem or in need of his help…

Most voters aren’t really concerned about who paid for the ridiculous battle bus. Central office will offer a sacrifice, pay the fines and it’ll all go away.

This.

Agreed Jamba. But we should still jail the fraudsters and ban the party concerned from contesting those seats. Harsh punishment is the only sort they’ll listen to. A short sharp shock.
Make sense?

Rules exist to make elections fair and they were broken and therefore the results were unfair

Anyone who is not partisan or who has honour and principles will care hence

Imagine that remain and labour won by cheating…..still saying the same thing?
I am you are not

That’s not really a reason to not try and lift people out of being poor. The tactic may have failed but that doesn’t devalue the objective.

I’m all in favour of raising people above being in poverty or being poor, but that’s not the same as increasing the numbers of the middle classes.

Agreed Jamba. But we should still jail the fraudsters and ban the party concerned from contesting those seats. Harsh punishment is the only sort they’ll listen to. A short sharp shock.
Make sense?

None at all really. If you try to put forward ridiculous over the top sanctions for what seems like an accounting cock up you just come across as hysterical and tend to loose all credibility 🙁
If you talk about fraud and jailing people the public assume your talking about people lining their own pockets. This isn’t the case here.
I completely understand political opponents of the Tories trying to make something of it though. I’m sure they would do the same, thats politic for you.

what seems like an accounting cock up

Its not an accounting cock up – its deliberate fraud

Pretty sure increasing the number at university was originally a pre’97 Conservative policy?

The definition of poverty is, IIRC, is having a household income of less than 60% of the median household income across the UK – so, less than £15,700. Almost a quarter of people living in poverty in the UK are in work.

Extreme poverty is defined as 40% of the median wage – a household income of less than £10k.

We’ve got a household income of considerably less than Corbyn’s £70k and are comfortably well off (to the extent that we didn’t claim benefits – tax credits and nursery vouchers – that we could have claimed when we were younger and poorer), despite the lack of public sector pay rises since 2010.

An individual earning >£70k pa is in the top ten percent of earners. They’re ‘rich’, by some definition of the word.

An individual earning >£70k pa is in the top ten percent of earners. They’re ‘rich’, by some definition of the word.

Nearer the top 5% isn’t it. And yes, anybody earning £70k is rich relative to the rest of UK. Don’t ask the people earning £70k if they are rich as they will always say they don’t feel it as people tend to spend whatever they get up to a point where it is hard to spend it all (i.e. someone earning £100k per month)

An individual earning >£70k pa is in the top ten percent of earners. They’re ‘rich’, by some definition of the word.

Comfortably affluent perhaps? I’ve met rich folk and they aren’t on £71k pa

Fully understand if folk want the &71k-ers to pay a little more tax though.

If you try to put forward ridiculous over the top sanctions for what seems like an accounting cock up you just come across as hysterical and tend to loose all credibility

where as when you try and minimise electoral fraud in a selection you look like what exactly?

If you talk about fraud and jailing people the public assume your talking about people lining their own pockets.

Possibly they know what the word actually means though isnt it
Fraud = wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

This isn’t the case here.

quite clearly it is

I completely understand political opponents of the Tories trying to make something of it though. I’m sure they would do the same, thats politic for you.

and i fully understand tories trying to minimise it due to their personal politics and lack of personal ethics

I dont care who did it, it is illegal and the law still stands. No one is above it and we should not turn a blind eye just because we support the party who did it.

The expansion of places at Uni – sounded like a good aspirational policy but…..what was required was a focus on improving the standard of primary education such that, at age 11, children were academically prepared for the step-change into secondary education.
There has been discussion for years about the first several months of secondary education being spent on getting children to the level they should have attained on leaving primary school.
There has also been much focus on the same concerns when transitioning from secondary to uni.

One of my concerns at the time – and is still a concern – is how our service based economy can provide the opportunities which grads believe should be theirs when it’s clear that net jobs growth is not high enough to absorb these new entrants into the job market in the types of job many of them believe they should have (sense of entitlement?)

An unwanted side effect of this policy is that it opened the door to Unis charging tuition fees; the law of unintended consequences.

It could also be argued that (some) degrees have been devalued.

A far better long term view would have been to develop and seriously fund an industrial development policy with regional organisations coordinated at a national level and staffed by industry leaders.

Retail sales continue to fall, financial services organisations are making transition arrangements for post-brexit and uk manufacturing is becoming increasingly niche.

Life is full of lost opportunities.

You’ll get sent off for being rational.

it’s clear that net jobs growth is not high enough to absorb these new entrants into the job market in the types of job many of them believe they should have (sense of entitlement?)

I don’t think it’s a sense of entitlement at all. How come you suddenly need to be a graduate to man a call centre? The problem is there are not and never were enough proper graduate jobs for the increase in graduates brought about by government policy.

It could also be argued that (some) degrees have been devalued.

I have little doubt that is indeed the case. Not necessarily a dumbing down of the courses but simply as a result of the sort jobs now considered “graduate level”.

I’m all in favour of raising people above being in poverty or being poor, but that’s not the same as increasing the numbers of the middle classes.

The two things can link together. Increase the size of the middle classes and get more net contributors and fewer net beneficiaries, more money for the NHS, mental health, and economic development projects. You’d also see more money spent in local communities increasing opportunities for small businesses?.

I dont care who did it, it is illegal and the law still stands. No one is above it and we should not turn a blind eye just because we support the party who did it.

I don’t think anyone is saying no offence has been committed, only the level of response that is needed to deal with it in a fair and proportional manner.
Largely the offence

The majority of the police complaints concern constituencies visited by the Tories’ RoadTrip2015 battlebuses – a campaign already tarnished by allegations of bullying and sexual harassment among young activists. It is alleged that the party registered RoadTrip’s transport and accommodation costs as national spending despite its use as part of individual MPs’ constituency campaigns Party spending on the latter is limited to £15,000, and the key contention in play is whether money spent locally should have been declared locally.

Proportional will probably be fines, warnings and reprimands.
Even though it might be interpreted as a fraud, it’s not bribes, ballot box stuffing misallocation of money for personal use. The sort of thing the general public (voters) consider fraud to be.
The only reason some are trying to make it into a shocking incident is to create political ammunition. I get this but I think it’s worth pointing out that most people don’t care what particular Conservative party budget pays for some clowns hotel bills, only that it isn’t being taken from their pockets.

I wish i was as qualified as you to say what the public do and do not think and what they care about
I am glad I am not as confused as you are about what fraud is

The police, cps and ultimately the courts will decide.

My 2 pence is its really not a big deal, its a few £ spent from one pot instead of the other. As for bullying Momentum have the Gold Medal for that.

Agreed Jamba. But we should still jail the fraudsters and ban the party concerned from contesting those seats

People lying on their mortgage applications is fraud. That brought down Northern Rock and Halifax Bank of Scotland (as a minimum). Send all those borrowers to jail ? No, blame the banks.

As for bullying Momentum have the Gold Medal for that.

Don’t be silly you can’t out nasty the nasty party

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/17/inquiry-into-tory-bullying-scandal-finds-13-alleged-victims-of-mark-clarke

Tory manifesto seems to be going well so far,
Keeping foreign aid at current level to piss off the racists
Brexit that will satisfy no one, especially leavers; keeping FOM and ECJ supremacy!
Now Hammond fancies increasing VAT and NI- just to hammer the poorest a bit more…

That’s every demographic upset

@jambayla…Your kidding. The Tory party can be held partly responsible for a murdered MP and directly responsible for an intern suicide, along with policies that drive the marganalised in our society to commit suicide/die of poor health as a result of poverty their policies have created.

Get a grip with your jibes of nastiness pointed at the Labour party. 🙄