Viewing 14 posts - 41 through 54 (of 54 total)
  • Is it bike packing if you stay in a hotel?
  • MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    One day an event organiser will find themselves explaining to a judge why they didn’t think it was a reasonable precaution to set mandatory rest periods.

    Volenti defence – accepted the risks

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    The Volenti defence for an organiser has theoretical limitations based on a duty of care towards athletes who may not be in a position to make rational decisions at a particular moment in time, and the potential for danger to other road users if the event uses public roads. It’s certainly something organisers may need to show they’ve considered if the profile of these events continues to rise.

    Someone may well try to establish liability by questioning how an organised race which appears to depend on voluntary sleep deprivation seems to be in conflict with other road safety laws, even though they don’t currently apply to bikes.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I find it fascinating stuff especially when the first 3-5 days of the longer events unfold and these differences begin to show. And on the sleep deprivation risk point, this is why finding out how far you can push that and how you feel about it just seems to be a part of long distance racing.

    Having ridden with him a couple of times it was morbidly fascinating watching Angus Young repeatedly destroy himself in every race. Which makes me wonder if it’s just a numbers game in the end. There’s enough amateur’s prepared to ride themselves into the ground, then one might beat the token pro doing it more sustainably. Don’t get me wrong, he’s fast, he rides in the local ‘fast’ club runs and chain gangs with the guys who race on the road, and his preferred tactic was always to do long days (>>24h). But there seemed a certain inevitability to the way he won the HT550, just ride it/yourself into the ground enough times and eventually the guy in 2nd place that year will have a bad day before you do and your bike explodes, you get hypothermia, etc).

    There’s amateur riders winning the longer events who seem quite different, they can just keep going at a steady, slower pace on very little sleep

    mugsys_m8
    Full Member

    Does winning a bike packing race

    Lots of tangents on this thread that are relevant in a discussion of the wider subject,

    but to me, I’m not aware of, certainly the more popular events/ races being defined as ‘bike packing race’. The term generally used is self-supported.

    In the years that I have been following such events, around the time of the 1st TCR I don’t note much change: people have always used different styles and placed different emphasis in terms of sleep and where they sleep in their methods.

    From a personal point of view, I feel more fulfilled the more I sleep out on these events. Notably on 2 consecutive years a c.1200km event I used to ride (route differs each year): the 1st year: no use of paid for accom or accom in buildings. Felt ‘complete’ 2nd year: one night sleeping out. i felt cheated of an experience. That said the 1st year was a mountains and wilder places route, 2nd year was down a touristic coast so landscapes (and my associated feelings) and offerings etc. were not comparable.

    GoatKarma
    Free Member

    Really interesting reading all this as I’ve got a 2000km ultra in 10 weeks time (eek). Thankfully all road and relatively flat, but then that means it attracts a fair whack of the proper fast folk.  The last winning time was under 4 days (3 days, 14hrs), with the winner only sleeping for 3hrs once, although having admitted he reckon he can do it a lot faster if he had planned a bit more (he’s doing it again too!).    It’s just on the cusp of wondering if anyone will attempt to ride it without ANY sleep if that can be reduced down towards 3-3.5days riding.

    I’m unsure yet on approach, it starts at 8am annoyingly, which means if you are hotelling-it,you either ride 12-16hrs, 36-40hrs, or 55hrs before getting a room (if you can’t realistically check in till 3pm). My strategy is probably in the middle of those options  : riding all day, all night, all day, then sleep, then repeat.  On the plus side it’s in a very well populated country (Netherlands!), so lowish risk of getting stuck in the middle of nowhere or caught out with accommodation, so bit more relaxed in strategy, and can just semi-wing-it depending on how I feel.

    poly
    Free Member

    One day an event organiser will find themselves explaining to a judge why they didn’t think it was a reasonable precaution to set mandatory rest periods.

    Volenti defence – accepted the risks

    I worded my sentence carefully:

    – I didn’t say it would be the rider making the claim:

    * if he crashes into a car and dies I think the driver may have a claim, not just for the physical damage but the mental trauma.

    * if he hits another rider or pedestrian they may see a better route to a claim from the organiser than the competitor

    * of course the rider might be most at risk of serious life changing injury and so have the greatest incentive to claim – even if you were shown to be contributory negligent, the organiser’s share might be millions!

    – Volenti non fit injuria is difficult to establish:

    * Need to show fully aware of the risk – ordinary people probably would expect its not possible to fall asleep riding and would be surprised you can get so tired you hallucinate (which have heard someone say who did Trans Iberia); so unless those organisers are explicitly highlighting the risk….

    * Need to show they voluntarily consented.  Would be some good legal debate on whether entering a competition where you have no ability to set / influence the rules is freely consenting.

    * probably another interesting point about whether consent was ongoing and could be relied upon for someone experiencing exhaustion; once they’ve reached the point of no longer properly being able to control a bike or hallucinating – are they competent to decide if they need rest?

    – I didn’t say which country the judge would be in – there’s probably similar concepts outside common law jurisdictions – but that’s going to be jurisdiction specific.  Even in the US which is closer to our legal system than many they have different rules about presumption of risk – and of course if you are going to get sued anywhere its quite likely there!

    – just because you might have a defence doesn’t mean you wont find yourself explaining to a judge; you might even be lucky and the judge agrees with you, it still doesn’t mean you won’t have had a lot of stress, hassle, cost etc.

    jameso
    Full Member

    Most events have liability waivers for all loss apart from anything arising from organiser negligence and the risks involved are described in general but not exhaustive, something about ‘can be reasonably forseen’.

    But you’re right, a robust contract still doesn’t mean you won’t have the stress of defending it or mean you can get insurance cover in the first place. Big Q may be what organiser negligence could be, outside of the obvious like poor routing. I think that’s why trackers and rider monitoring is more common now.

    Aidy
    Free Member

    Where do you draw the line, though?

    A core part of ultra cycling races is about preparation. A lot of the race happens before the race.

    Should organisers have to warn and mitigate for every eventuality?

    I saw one memorable interview with someone wolho had had to scratch from a race, and felt passionately that the organisers should have forewarned them about the possibility of Shermer’s Neck, because they’d never heard of it before and had no idea what was happening to them. And well… I kinda feel that if they’d read any ultra cycling blog ever, they’d at least be a little bit aware of it.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Most events have liability waivers for all loss

    Signing away rights is a tricky issue especially when it comes to a third party.

    I think it would be particularly problematic given that one problem with sleep deprivation is decreased ability to make decisions.
    Look at what has been happening around concussion in football and rugby where as the risks become increasingly apparent the rules are being changed to remove the choice from the player.

    ratherbeintobago
    Full Member

    On a slight tangent, I read someone saying (might even have been Michael Broadwith) that the women’s LEJoG is harder than the men’s, as the men’s is effectively one night without sleep vs two.

    ampthill
    Full Member

    You can’t sign a waiver that removes some one’s duty of care to prevent death and injury.

    This was top on Google when I checked that I hadn’t invented that.

    https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/personal-injury-claim/signed-a-waiver/#:~:text=A%20waiver%20is%20intended%20to,of%20these%20establishments%20will%20have.

    How that applies here is obviously a huge leap.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Signing away rights is a tricky issue especially when it comes to a third party.

    The third party sues whoever was negligent.

    An organiser sets a route. A rider rides it. My view (long time since I was a claims manager) is that the rider chooses how they appeoach the route and how they ride it, and is responsible if they crash into a third party, whether through tiredness or “red mist”, same as it would on a time trial.

    DaveyBoyWonder
    Free Member

    I did 3 days in the Lakes last summer with a group of mates doing a big loop, staying in hotels both nights. I don’t seem to recall any one us labelling it bike packing.

    jameso
    Full Member

    You can’t sign a waiver that removes some one’s duty of care to prevent death and injury.

    That’s as I understood it, you can’t ask someone to waiver Thier right to claim for organiser negligence and duty of care comes under (or is same as?) not being negligent. But oc ianal etc, I’m also going ot.

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