Irish blasphemy law

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  • Irish blasphemy law
  • grumm
    Member

    Secular campaigners in the Irish Republic defied a strict new blasphemy law which came into force today by publishing a series of anti-religious quotations online and promising to fight the legislation in court.

    The new law, which was passed in July, means that blasphemy in Ireland is now a crime punishable with a fine of up to €25,000 (£22,000).

    It defines blasphemy as "publishing or uttering matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters sacred by any religion, thereby intentionally causing outrage among a substantial number of adherents of that religion, with some defences permitted".

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/01/irish-atheists-challenge-blasphemy-law

    As Richard Dawkins said: 'I'm proud to be listed among the 'blasphemers'. What a great own goal by the Irish government, especially at a time that coincides with the humiliating disgrace of the disgusting Catholic church in Ireland.'

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber
    5thElefant
    Member

    I prefer the Dutch approach to the fools who get upset by a bit of blasphemy.

    waynekerr
    Member

    What's the Dutch got to do with happenings in Denmark? 😳

    Hairychested
    Member

    Hell, gonna have to lock my Venom, Behemoth etc. t-shirts away….

    Premier Icon BigJohn
    Subscriber

    I can't wait for an articulate speaker to deliberately blaspheme in Ireland just so he can have his "day in court" and defend himself vigorously, by deconstructing all the nonsense.

    andywarner
    Member

    well stroke the pope and f*ck a priest! who'd have ever thunk it?

    5thElefant
    Member

    What's the Dutch got to do with happenings in Denmark?

    Crap. I'm always doing that. Very confusing when you arrive in the wrong country.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    What a great own goal by the Irish government

    In what way is it an "own goal" ?

    I can see that some might argue that there should be no blasphemy laws, but surely if there are blasphemy laws, then they should cover all religions, including Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, and not just Christianity ?

    Who can argue that an anti-blasphemy law which covers all religions, is worst than an anti-blasphemy law which covers only Christianity ? ….specially in a secular society.

    5thElefant
    Member

    Who can argue that an anti-blasphemy law which covers all religions, is worst than an anti-blasphemy law which covers only Christianity ? ….specially in a secular society.

    I can give it a go.

    All blasphemy laws are crap but if you happen to have a blasphemy law that only covers one religion then that's better than a blasphemy law that covers more than one religion.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    a blasphemy law that only covers one religion then that's better than a blasphemy law that covers more than one religion.

    I can't see the logic there, specially if you believe in a society where all are equal before the law. Nor why it represents an "own goal" by the Irish government.

    5thElefant
    Member

    I can't see the logic there, specially if you believe in a society where all are equal before the law.

    Giving people who believe in crap special rights doesn't fit "in a society where all are equal before the law" so adding more **** to the protected list is a step backwards. Removing the law altogether would be a step forward.

    Premier Icon kennyp
    Subscriber

    As Richard Dawkins said: 'I'm proud to be listed among the 'blasphemers'

    What a sad, pathetic thing to boast about. Pretty much confirms my opinion of Dawkins as a silly little man desperate to try and be controversial.

    johnners
    Member

    publishing or uttering matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters sacred by any religion, thereby intentionally causing outrage

    I don't see why anyone would want to do such a thing.

    5thElefant
    Member

    I don't see why anyone would want to do such a thing.

    Life of Brian?

    Junkyard
    Member

    It is not fair that we are not allowed to suggest that there unevidenced beliefs/inaccurate account of reality is nonsense and yet they can condemn our soul to eternal hell and call us sinners and worse, prevent abortions, condom use, abuse the rights of homosexuals, etc – Now that really is offensive.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Giving people who believe in crap special rights doesn't fit "in a society where all are equal before the law"

    A rather weak argument if you don't mind me saying.

    I reckon protecting/respecting people who "believe in crap" is the mark of an advanced civilised society.

    A lot of the shopkeepers around my way have pictures of fat hairy gurus, and strange deities with many arms or elephant heads on display, I find it all rather peculiar. Yet I don't feel the need to be "grossly abusive or insulting" to use the words in the new Irish law. And furthermore, I think those people should be protected under law, from those who are determined to, "intentionally causing outrage".

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    But who defines 'intent'?

    If the alleged 'victim' then surely a matter of opinion? No one has the right not to be offended.

    Junkyard
    Member

    neither do I ernie but they do not extend the same courtesy to us do they?
    Cardinal Cormack Murphy-O'Connor

    Whether a person is atheist or any other, there is infact in my view something not totally human if they leave out the transcendent… we call it God… I think that if you leave that out you are not fully human.”

    This law does not stop religous people from being as offensive as they like towards those who do not share their personal view of the world.
    In essence it is law that allows discrimination ….The human right to abuse others who do not share your faith.

    Premier Icon slacker
    Subscriber

    I reckon protecting/respecting people who "believe in crap" is the mark of an advanced civilised society.

    I agree with that but like Junkyard pointed out you shouldn't have a situation where religious groups have a law that protects them from genuinely offensive attacks, and things they might just choose to take offence at if it suits them, whilst leaving them free to spout whatever hatred they like against other non religious sections of society.

    crikey
    Member

    As Richard Dawkins said: 'I'm proud to be listed among the 'blasphemers'

    If the alternative is a celibate man in a dress dictating the sex lives of millions as the head of a mystical organisation that doesn't seem able to deal with child abusers in its midst in any sensible way, then Dawkins strikes me as a shining light in the bullshit.

    It's fairly predictable; you have a church desperate to be outraged, atheists keen to make a point, a poorly thought out law which will be tested in Ireland and then on in higher European courts. Result? nothing of any great import.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    This law does not stop religous people from being as offensive as they like towards those who do not share their personal view of the world.

    There's probably a strong case for the law to be extended to also cover atheists – yes, I won't deny that. But that doesn't mean that it is wrong to protect people from intentional abuse, insult, and outrage.

    Who defines 'intent'? Well it is usually the courts which interpret the spirit of the law in such matters. Common-sense is expected to prevail – although of course militant atheist will go out of their way to suggest extreme and ludicrous examples. FFS, I can't believe that it's me, the Leninist on here, who has to argue the case for liberal tolerance and the right of people to "believe in crap" 😯

    I find it ofensive when people say I will burn in hell for not thinking like them. Because I don't have an imaginary friend I don't have the cover it seems.

    SSP

    crikey
    Member

    FFS, I can't believe that it's me, the Leninist on here, who has to argue the case for liberal tolerance and the right of people to "believe in crap"

    No one is suggesting that we shouldn't be tolerant, and no one is suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to believe in crap. As you have suggested, the problem lies in a law designed to protect only religions/the religious from abuse; religions/the religious should be subject to the same constraints; ie, stop with the condemnation of unbelievers, stop with the abuse of homosexuals, and while they are at it, stop hiding the paedophiles…

    crikey
    Member

    ..I propose a Bill and Ted amendment to the law;

    "Be excellent to one another"

    Junkyard
    Member

    Intersting paradoy there the aethist defending them Ernie.
    I agree ernie they have the right to believe and say as they like I just want the same …they are the side lacking in liberal tolerance not the aethists. Treating us equally is hardly a radical viewpoint, except for the religous.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    the problem lies in a law designed to protect only religions/the religious from abuse; religions/the religious should be subject to the same constraints; ie, stop with the condemnation of unbelievers

    So the law doesn't go far enough then ? Fair enough ………..I'll leave at that.

    EDIT : "Intersting paradoy there the aethist defending them Ernie"

    Who said that I'm an atheist ? I keep my personal beliefs well away from this forum, I might be/might not be – it's only my politics which I am prepared to freely express 😉 But please don't challenge my Leninist credentials 😯

    duckman
    Member

    they are the side lacking in liberal tolerance not the aethists. Treating us equally is hardly a radical viewpoint, except for the religous

    Not on your past performance, you seemed VERY intolerant of me admitting to being a Christian.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    As a brief aside: recently this, from an article on the historical influence of land ownership in "Prospect".

    "Communist leaders were aware of the influence that land ownership could excercise on social values. Lenin knew that poorer Russian peasants wanted to emulate the richer by employing labour to help them work the land. So not only was private ownership abolished after the 1917 revolution, but Lenin also attacked any farmers who behaved as if it still existed. "Ruthless war must be waged on the kulaks! Death to them!" he ranted in 1918. To create the conditions for a socialist conciousness, he and Stalin killed or starved to death some 20 million peasants in the 1920's and 1930's."

    I hope no similar number have been slaughtered to create your own socialist conciousness, ernie…

    duckman
    Member

    The Russian government starved to death the vast majoity of the 20 million. Mostly in the attempts to force collective farming on the peasants (sorry Ernie, fellow workers)

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    That's kind of what I just said. Isn't it?

    duckman
    Member

    Yup, but more down to being inept rather than neck-shooting the lot(which they did a bit of.)I think they call the same thing the common agricultural policy now….

    El-bent
    Member

    Communism is indeed terrible Woppit. In terms of a political or economic ideal standing on the bones of those who died to achieve that ideal, I place it on a par with Democracy/capitalism.

    yeti guy
    Member

    As a Christian, this seems over the top but i must admit that i cant stand blasphemous language.

    I really do find it offensive.

    To the un initiated its kind of like if someone was dissing yo mamma. – It just gets to you.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    So be offended then, if that's what you want. Nothing's going to happen… 🙄

    PS: I doubt it's going to stop by you complaining about it either, so you'd better find a strategy to cope, if I were you. No offense. 8)

    yeti guy
    Member

    Mr Wop 🙄

    None taken !

    bananaworld
    Member

    Um, is there any reason why this law is?

    I really do find it offensive.

    To the un initiated its kind of like if someone was dissing yo mamma. – It just gets to you.

    TBH lots of people have dissed my mamma and it has never got to me and she's real and everything. I guess that if you are a strong enought believer in the fact that you Mum is a great person it really does not matter what people say about her.

    No bow down and worship my mum (she really can read your mind!)

    SSP

    bananaworld
    Member

    she really can read your mind!

    Yeah, she knows exactly how I like it…

    8)

    she really can read your mind!

    Yeah, she knows exactly how I like it…

    Are you fat because every time you f*** her she gives you a biscuit?

    Back at ya! 😉

    See Yeti Guy, no need to get offended or start passing death sentances / fines / daft laws.

    SSP

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