kimbers – Member
Working in a cancer research lab, with UK (non commercial) science getting around 20% of its funding from the EU and working with a large number of Europeans, Im hearing a lot of the above

I think the problem is that its very very hard to see a rational explanation for voting leave, certainly from my perspective

This appears to be the case for most thinking/educated people.

There was no rational reason to vote leave.

Emotions will not buy a lot of food, though….

We have two stock market linked endowments about to mature, a pension that will take a beating and a mortgage.

Stock markets go up and down. They always have. Some people have made a killing this morning from a drop of 500 points on the FT, then a recovery of 250. And mortgage rates might go down yet!

I have a child who will need care from the NHS for the rest of her life.

Is the NHS based in Brussels? Struggling to see a cause and effect in that sentence. There’s been more damage to the NHS from PFI deals in the last decade.

I work for a european company

You still do, I assume?

There’s so much fusss over nothing. As yet, nothing has changed, the sun will come up tomorrow, it’ll probably rain on sunday. Stop panicking until you know some facts.

My Grandad always used to say decimalisation was the worst thing that ever happened to this country, it was deal a blow it was still feeling in the 80’s etc.

In 30 years you can say right or wrong. It’s still too early to tell.

****ts
elder generation ruining it for everyone else
stupid
racist
xenophobic
un-educated
ignorant masses
poor
lower class
daily mail readers
sun readers
guardian readers

Don’t forget the ‘spineless cowardly bastard’!

Don’t forget the ‘spineless cowardly bastard’!

i was loosing track! – i’ll add that though!

Speaking as a remainer – we need the weekend to vent. It’s a huge blow to those of us who really want to be part of Europe and those like me who’s livelyhood comes from working with EU countries on EU funded research.

If remain won we would be constantly getting it in the ear from the leave lot saying things would be better if we left.

As we are leaving we will now find out if they are right.

Personally I feel it is a bad thing but I really hope I will be proved wrong and if I am then I will be more than happy to accept as I was wrong. We are now all in this together, as much as I feel like leaving…

I think people have “back-lashed” because they’ve been failed by their government and because someone came along and gave them an easy answer.

I don’t think people* are stupid but I do believe a huge number have been completely mislead. The problem with crowds is they’re easy to manipulate. There are some stupid people, on both sides of the argument, there are some racists and bigots on both sides too, (I’d go so far as to say more of the latter on the leave side, but there will be plenty remainers who simply had enough vested interests that they voted with their wallets not their beliefs.) unfortunately these people are often the loudest ones with greatest momentum and the sensible are dragged along with them.

I’d very much like to believe that given the opportunity to sit and consider the whole thing in isolation people would have come to the same (my) conclusion but there is no such chance. It’s okay to do X or Y when lots of people are doing, it makes it easy not to think about it.

So yes I think we’ve been sold up the river by stupid people, bigots and racists, most of them not the electorate but those leading the campaigns. They (both sides) gave us little but lies and fear and failed to (IMHO) explain what any of this actually meant to anyone. Not helped because every time either side made a valid point the other side simply said “you’re wrong”. Both sides ran their campaign like a parent telling a two year old “just because” unfortunately since people haven’t the care to look further than that as they liked what they were told that worked. it’s not stupidity, it’s not too do with being poor, it’s too do with believing you can make your life better by wishing it to be. That’s not stupid it’s just naive but it’s positively encouraged by (not just) our government, we are promised all the benefits and none of the responsibility (which I think was the big whinge about EU migration).

*In honesty people are stupid, persons aren’t, but in a decent sized group they develop a herd mentality.

Too late now, you can’t blame your out vote on an unconvincing in campaign.

I voted in. But I completely share the OP’s frustration, blaming the electorate is futile – I have posted such sentiments quite frequently – if you lose it is your failure to persuade, simple as that. But whatever the result it is hardly the end of the world.

OP..

I give you this

as an example of why at least a few of those ‘insults’ are probably quite accurate

people like this, who voted without any measure of common sense or comprehension of implications are going to make alot of peoples lives significantly harder…including their own and mine

Democracy at work. 51% of the population p*ssing on the dreams of the other 49%.

The vitriol here, in the office today, sections of the press and social media is depressing. Hopefully it’ll calm down. I’m sure it’d be the same if it went the other way – doubtless there is a fdrum with a different demographic for whom the result was a massive positive.

it’s too do with believing you can make your life better by wishing it to be

I’ve selected just this snippet from your patronising ramblings. (How many times does the word ‘stupid’ appear in it?)

Is your life going to be better for doing nothing; everything the same; no changes?

Or will taking a risk, throwing out the established system give an opportunity to make something better?

That was the opportunity presented. Most people have taken it. That’s not wishing, that’s acting.

Change!

It must be better, right?

Through socialisation and internalisation, the structures of society shape and construct the structures of our consciousness (an adapted P. Berger quote). Basically, the voter is not to blame. It is the structures of our society which created the result today. If you take umbrage, take it with the most powerful in our society and not the individual.

tpbiker – Member
OP..

I give you this

as an example of why at least a few of those ‘insults’ are probably quite accurate

people like this, who voted without any measure of common sense or comprehension of implications are going to make alot of peoples lives significantly harder…including their own and mine

Exactly.

people like this, who voted without any measure of common sense or comprehension of implications are going to make alot of peoples lives significantly harder…including their own and mine

There’s doubtless a percentage but I think it’s ironically narrow minded to cast the voting majority as being in some way deficient in intelligence, reason or logic. One of the reasons I believe that pollsters and the betting industry got it so arse-backwards is due to the Remain campaign trying to associate the leave vote with Nige and his loony chums. People said one thing in public and then did something very different.

Or maybe I’m wrong and the truly depressing reality is that the majority are (at various levels) closet racists (if you believe that’s peoples driving reason, however misguided). Call me an optimist but that goes very much against my experience but…

woffle – Member
There’s doubtless a percentage but I think it’s ironically narrow minded to cast the voting majority as being in some way deficient in intelligence, reason or logic.

Ok, so why did they vote to leave then?

Wilful ignorance of the ‘facts’ and confirmation bias due to an emotionally reached decision based upon misleading information and long-held prejudice (not necessarily racial/national).

Ok, so why did they vote to leave then?

Really? You genuinely think it’s as black and white (*pun alert) as all that?

no, I posted before I’d finished typing!

Well, I’ll put my hand up regarding getting heated – I thought it was passion for staying in 😳

I have to say though, I have every respect for the views of Leave voters who had thought it through and concluded that leave was the best option – but there are a large number who haven’t thought it through and have just voted on gut instinct, “had a punt” etc.

To a scientist with a vested interest and reasonably good knowledge of the benefits and drawbacks of the EU, this was deeply frustrating.

I must now declare my intolerance of wilful ignorance, British/English nationalism/jingoism, racial discrimination, scare-mongering, hypocrisy and prejudice.
Stupidity is slightly different, as the stupid may not be able to do anything about it.

It’s the wilful ignorance bit – listen to the arguments and reject them by all means, that’s the foundation of democracy. Taking a view of fwk it were off anyway isn’t going to lead to better democracy or to repairs the rifts between, let’s face it, two almost equal halves of the population.

Leave voters. A great bunch of lads.

OP, if you are still reading this thread you make some good points, I agree. We seem to have developed into a society where venting genuine disappointment and anger at those whose opinion is different is to easy to make public. It’s a shame really but the days of a polite society of people who can disagree strongly but be civil to each other has long gone. For some people we live in an angry land.

Ok, so why did they vote to leave then?

Because, for the most part, they were presented with nonsense and lies from both sides and one side sounded better.

The leave camp had the “advantage” that you could vote to change things (take back this, do this etc)

The remain campaign on the other hand had little to offer but “the other option is doom!”

Wilful ignorance of the ‘facts’ and confirmation bias due to an emotionally reached decision based upon misleading information and long-held prejudice (not necessarily racial/national).

I don’t disagree that the campaigning on both sides has been a horrific race to the bottom.

But I fundamentally disagree that there are no valid reasons for voting out. Whether you put the weight of the evidence is entirely up to you, and your metrics of weighting will differ massively to others.

I don’t believe that the majority have been swayed by loony Nige and chums.

I had a conversation with a colleague who voted differently this morning. It was civil and based on the reasoning we went through to get to our choice.

Contrast that to the now former Facebook friend (barely an acquaintance) who posted a nice racist victory message.

I don’t immediately think that anyone who voted leave deserves an insult, I do think anyone who is a xenophobic, Farage worshipping bigot deserves insults at the very least.

Most of the leave campaign focus was around UKIP and their nasty, small minded mentality. They’re the BNP with better dress sense. Any real benefit to leave was drowned out by vague claims that the EU is evil and we need our control back.

The biggest worry is if leaving doesn’t work and it all goes to hell in a handcart – who will UKIP turn their gaze on next?

Got to try and keep positive and get through it now.

Not sure I agree that this is all CMD’s fault as the conditions for a Brexit were created a good 5 years before he came to office.

The root cause of all of this is in how the Lisbon treaty came into existence in the first place.

Tony Blair and other then leaders negotiated a European Constitution Treaty in 2004ish. 2 member states held referendums and their people voted against what was quite clearly the mechanism to transfer greater decision making powers to Brussels / facilitate political integration.

Tony Blair promised the public a referendum and then reneged on this – with much of the powers subsequently shoved into the Lisbon Treaty and which no-one got a vote on.

The tension over European Political integration has been present across Europe from that time – CMD was the PM who picked up the pieces.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+did+blair+promise+euro+referendum/558277.html

A lot of people, for a variety of reasons, feel that the EU is not working for them, and leaving was a chance to change things. Including apparently well informed business leaders, economists and commentators. Not just the apparently hard of thinking.

I disagree with that view, but I also have to accept that the democratic will has prevailed and my view lost. The quicker we grow up, stop blaming people, and figure out how to make this new reality work for our benefit the better.

There was no rational reason to vote leave.

That simply isn’t true. Lots of considered rational reasons were put forward for wanting to leave. There are plenty of them on the big thread. Probably the most common was a feeling that the EU had outgrown its mandate or that it is doomed and we are better to jump ship early.

I know several perfectly sensible smart non-racist friends that listened to the evidence and felt Leave was the right thing.

Obviously there were plenty of people on the Leave side with other motivations.
But let’s not pretend they were all like that.

(Edit: so err MCTD +1)

ScottChegg – Member

Is your life going to be better for doing nothing; everything the same; no changes?
Or will taking a risk, throwing out the established system give an opportunity to make something better?
That was the opportunity presented. Most people have taken it. That’s not wishing, that’s acting.

I’m half inclined to agree with you, people were given a choice of “do nothing, it’ll be fine” or do “something”.

My point of argument would be that largely the “something” when actually investigated seems to constitute “think it’ll be better because you want it to be”. For all my discussion with leave voters and steps to see things from their view point I couldn’t get much beyond an argument that free movement of people is bad, giving money to the EU is bad, if we stop doing these things, things will be good. To me that’s wishing not doing. If you have a genuine explanation for how pulling out of the EU will make things better please feel free to (and I guess you’ve posted it else where) point me in the direction. (for my part it won’t help that I’m pro EU, pro integration and I feel that the main failing of the EU is the inability of people to stop thinking in what I feel are outdated geographical and national terms)

I’d very much love to be proved wrong (the up shot of being right being anything from a week or two blip in the markets, return to status quo, through to long term blip in the markets and some very bad changes indeed to things like labour laws).

(as for the number of time I used stupid in the post, yes it’s a few but is intended to be a reference to the op. Also if it’s patronising apologies, it’s not intended to be (I may be an asshat but I’m not deliberately so)

a vote for ‘remain’ was a vote for the status quo, in support of the establishment.

And for many people, their status quo is rubbish, and the establishment couldn’t seem to care less.

now, i don’t see Gove/Johnson/Farage/IDS as caring types, who’ll forge a new liberated future for the disenfranchised, but my life’s alright, and it’s easy for me to sneer from the sidelines.

I can think of lots of things I don’t like about the EU that might make me want to leave, but migration wasn’t one of them.

Similarly, of all the reasons to stay, a possible economic doom wasn’t high on my list either.

The info and reasons put forward by both sides were very simplistic and myopic.

a vote for ‘remain’ was a vote for the status quo, in support of the establishment.

And for many people, their status quo is rubbish, and the establishment couldn’t seem to care less.

I can see that point of view.

Hell of an issue to want to make a protest vote over though! Not stupidity, rather it’s desperation.

well, quite.

“a vote for ‘remain’ was a vote for the status quo, in support of the establishment.
And for many people, their status quo is rubbish, and the establishment couldn’t seem to care less.”

I suspect this is very true, for once some very fed up people got to say “up yours” even if they knew it may not be right. The demographics of the vote would seem so.

Whats that line from the motorbike film……..

man in street: What you rebelling against?

Biker: What you got?

OP – you are spot on.

In the modern world of post-truth politics none of the descriptions listed should be applied.

My Sis in law posted this on Facebook in the interests of family harmony I did not reply with any of the above

I voted to leave based on many different reasons. All that money we send to Brussels, regardless of whether that figure was wrong or not, it’s still money they do not deserve. If you are someone from the eu that wishes to come here and contribute to our society and work hard and fit in then you are welcome. No criminals, rapists or pedos as Angela Merkel would want. Done

Did you tell her how to spell paedo?

Otherwise, what’s the problem….? 😉

Despite what is being claimed, there is a lot of ill-informed, ignorant tosh like the above spouted by many “leave” enthusiasts.

A protest vote to spite yourself is ridiculous.

Or Was this the Boaty McBoatface referendum?

In impressed that the anti vitriol thread took a few pages to get into tit for tat name calling

We’re out of the EU because some simpletons don’t like having a Polish dentist.

I imagine the simpletons are wholly unconcerned with a polish dentist, it’s the Polish patients which bother the simpletons.

And no we’re not, we are out of the EU because the EU’s representatives have failed completely to show the benefits of that institution to the majority of people in a way they can relate to.

Kimbers, more ashamed than impressed here, but yes.

Pathetic.

Is there a thread in the forum where Leavers stated explicit reasons for that vote? It’s still not clear to me what the expect to happen now.