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Income Tax. Beginning to feel like working isn't worth it any more
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grumFree Member
I’ll respond to your points when you’ve answered my earlier simple question on whether you would support workfare on that basis…
You mean when you asked if he would support a magical workfare scheme that doesn’t put people out of work, that has no basis in reality?
deepreddaveFree MemberLifer – I have worked with many real examples of people/families for whom the simple maths of taking a part/full time paid job is deemed not worthwhile i.e. benefits+lifestyle > increased paid hours+detrimental impact on lifestyle. As you seemingly doubt they exist I can only assume you either have no involvement with them or are taking my comments out of context.
Your suggestion of higher minimum wages sounds great so I’m happy to see how that works first :). When do you expect that to happen and how much do you expect the rise to be?
deepreddaveFree MemberJunkyard – Member
Are you saying wages are so low that the bare minimum the state decress you need to be on the poverty line is about what you will get on th eminimum wage – THAT IS SHOCKING
No, I’m saying that benefit levels can and do exceed the national minimum wage depending on your circumstances thus reducing the incentive to work.
Can you use Mc Donalds and their UK based profits to explain why they cannot pay above the minimum wage? Could you explain why we should subsidise their employment [ via working tax credits]
No I can’t. Each individual’s circumstances are different. A single 18 yr old would be better off on minimum wage than benefits. A married man with a wife who doesn’t work and 4 children probably wouldn’t. There are no panaceas but we can still try to get a better balance so that those who want to work and do so are not worse off than those who choose not to.
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...JunkyardFree MemberNo, I’m saying that benefit levels can and do exceed the national minimum wage depending on your circumstances thus reducing the incentive to work
We had established that what I am trying to work out is whether you think the problem is with benefits being too high or wages being too low. As for “depending on your circumstances” the system is designed to make you better off in work [ working tax credits] than not in work and tops up the NMW. It is unlikely – there are few isolated cases where this does not occur but it is as rare as the penilless spinster in the mansion.
Assuming your 4 family person assuming youngest is under 5 and there are 4 kids without disability and rent of £550 for a 3 bed house in the north of england then they are better off £462.15 per monthHere is the calculator – let me know what figure you need to be worse off and how long it took you to get the combination
£634 for the single person assuming they are at home with parents and no housing costs
I used a 40 hr week fwiwhttp://policyinpractice.co.uk/universal-credit/universal-credit-calculator/
[/quote]I have worked with many real examples of people/families for whom the simple maths of taking a part/full time paid job is deemed not worthwhile i.e. benefits+lifestyle > increased paid hours+detrimental impact on lifestyle.
Really i work with them and have done for years but dont recognise this scenario and have yet to encounter it. I agree there a number where the gain may be what we term marginal but it is far from common or the norm as you suggest.
deepreddaveFree MemberJunkyard – I didn’t say it was the norm but it is not at all uncommon. My argument has always been addressed to those who choose not to work BECAUSE the trade off between benefits and lifestyle is preferable to working and marginal financial gain. Are you saying you meet few people who ‘manage’ their hours to maximise benefits for minimum work? If you meet very few people who prefer less income and less work then fair enough but I meet those who choose to ‘play the system’ and there are too many for whom the balance is weighted towards insufficient incentive to work. That’s before we look at the flaws in the tax credit system which can be exploited by the notionally ‘self employed’ or ‘directors’ or those with multiple children in childcare etc but opting to work part time. I’ve no issue with those in genuine need or wanting to work.
I don’t think it’s as simple as lower benefits or higher NMW as circumstances are everything.
For the record, I suspect the system broadly works for the vast majority but still believe giving something back for benefits received would be better than not. Do you disagree?
JunkyardFree MemberAre you saying you meet few people who ‘manage’ their hours to maximise benefits for minimum work?
God no but they are people working and manipulating the child tax credit system who would largely be single Mums. TBH I have little issue with “subsidising” them to enable them to bemothers as well. That scenario is a common one for sure.
I have no idea what % of claimants this is tbh have you?I suspect the system broadly works for the vast majority but still believe giving something back for benefits received would be better than not. Do you disagree?
It all depends what the something back is as I understand they agree to actively seek employment. do x number of activities per week in order to prove it. You want something more as well?
Perhaps insisting on one day per week doing activities and letting folk choose may be acceptable as I think voluntary work is a win win for both. However it is essentially inevitable that this will have an impact on employment levels and the issue would be how much.
When it is state enforced i suspect we would need to involve the private sector to get 2 millionish folk doing something at least once per week never mind 5 days per week.rattrapFree MemberJunky – universal credit taper rate will be 65p in the £
So, if you’re ‘marginal’ then for every pound you earn, you’ll lose 65p in benefits (and thats a lot better than it was before universal credit)
therefore on minimum wage, you’re working for an extra £2 per hour.
and thats not allowing for free school dinners, prescriptions, carers allowance, free transport to schools etc.
LiferFree Memberdeepreddave – Member
Lifer – I have worked with many real examples of people/families for whom the simple maths of taking a part/full time paid job is deemed not worthwhile i.e. benefits+lifestyle > increased paid hours+detrimental impact on lifestyle. As you seemingly doubt they exist I can only assume you either have no involvement with them or are taking my comments out of context.I just asked where you’d encountered them…through your job then I take it from that? No need to get indignant, you could just answer the question.
For the record, I suspect the system broadly works for the vast majority but still believe giving something back for benefits received would be better than not. Do you disagree?
Yes. For all the reasons listed above.
Out of interest what would you have them ‘give back’?
RichPennyFree Membertherefore on minimum wage, you’re working for an extra £2 per hour.
JSA is £71 a week?
40 x£6.19 is £247.60?
Seems like an improvement to me.
deepreddaveFree MemberWell I understand the Govt work on 98% of claimants being ‘honest’ but that will include those maximising their benefit receipts in a way which the system didn’t intend and those who choose to receive less and not work/work more for lifestyle reasons. I suspect it’s a small segment so all in all it’s the minority and the system ‘works’ in terms of its fundamental objective but that doesn’t mean it can’t be improved.
I was kind of hoping we’d create a few jobs organising the 2 million and then that they’d manage themselves 🙂 I’m an optimist.
JunkyardFree Memberratttrap – well there is calculator up there and it show those two are not working for that £2 an hour you claim nor paying the tax rate you claim. Would you have a reference or source for your claim so I can see if it has any merit as an argument?
I would imagine if you look at my earnings and factor in that I pay my own rent, tax, NI council tax etc then you will find an equally high “marginal tax rate”. I agree this penalises the poor and we should tax the rich more and increase and taper the start point to benefit the poor.but that doesn’t mean it can’t be improved.
Everything can be improved but yes it can be improved in many many ways
I was kind of hoping we’d create a few jobs organising the 2 million and then that they’d manage themselves I’m an optimist.
You sure you work with them 😉
deepreddaveFree MemberLifer – Member
I just asked where you’d encountered them…through your job then I take it from that? No need to get indignant, you could just answer the question.Did I come across that way? Sorry. I’ll not press you for your experience 😉
Yes. For all the reasons listed above.
Out of interest what would you have them ‘give back’?
Ok we’ll agree to disagree then. Vital organs? Seriously, their time. Doing whatever would be worthwhile in their local communities that can’t currently be afforded. They could start by building a nice trail through a local wood near me……
deepreddaveFree MemberJunkyard – Member
You sure you work with them😀 There’s an STW discussion and then there’s reality. I understand the two don’t mix.
LiferFree MemberI can totally understand what you’re saying, but the problem is that administering services like that costs money. So do we want to reduce the benefits bill or make people work for their benefits? IMO the two are irreconcilable.
On the other hand you do have people volunteering through their own volition while on JSA, in a museum, for example. But then they get enrolled in workfare and go and stack shelves in poundland.
RichPennyFree MemberSeriously, their time. Doing whatever would be worthwhile in their local communities that can’t currently be afforded. They could start by building a nice trail through a local wood near me……
Everyone is capable of doing this, regardless of work situation. Perhaps it should be compulsory for everyone. I’ve already done a wee bit of trailbuilding on local estate land. I’m happy to give a little back 🙂
deepreddaveFree MemberI agree it’ll probably cost X to administer but am hoping for global savings of X + Y% in terms of the ‘burden’ on the state. Even if it cost I’d happily pay a bit more from my very average and very under attack net pay to fund a fitter/fairer society.
Then again I’d rather the OP paid it 🙂
deepreddaveFree MemberRichPenny – Member
Perhaps it should be compulsory for everyone. I’ve already done a wee bit of trailbuilding on local estate land. I’m happy to give a little backRich, you can claim as many benefits as you like 🙂
rattrapFree MemberWould you have a reference or source for your claim so I can see if it has any merit as an argument?
JunkyardFree MemberIt quite long – what page?
1.1 million households, a person would currently lose between 70 per cent and all of their earnings if they move into work of ten hours a week.
The number of households who lose between 70 per cent and all of their earnings through taxation and benefit withdrawal on moving into ten hours of work will fall by around 1.1 million under Universal Credit.
Well in the first claim on page 1 mentions an individual in a household [ I assume mainly young people at home with parents] by Page 4 it is a household they are helping. Nice spin 😀
Ignoring that it also overstates the % above what you claim so your figure may be accurate for some claimants who work 10 hours per week only on the minimum wage[ and I assume live at home and pay no rent/council tax]. I doubt this is a typical scenario facing the unemployed.
Is your claim in there as I am not reading all 43 pages
TadeepreddaveFree Member@ rattrap – cheers for that, interesting reading for a very quiet moment but I did note the phrase “generosity of the benefit system”! 😉
JunkyardFree MemberRead that link but tbh i would need to read the whole report to see what the table and other stuff actually means and still I struggle with long sentences
I salute the indefatigability of you tow for reading that 😉
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