What I’d have done is spoken to security. Or rather, that’s what I’d have wanted to do with the benefit of hindsight, whether I’d have had the presence of mind to actually do so when put on the spot I have no idea. As others of said though you did something at least, which is more than a lot of people would have done.

That or yell “why are you photographing that young woman’s knickers?!” in a big loud voice I suppose.

From what I describe, is there any possible innocent angle to this?

I’m not seeing one.

I have no idea what French law is on this one – the Tory fella filibustering the private member’s bill in the HoC last year (I think?) came to mind.

That was Christopher Chope, and he’s notorious for doing it. His MO is to object to ANY private members’ bills that he sees as being rushed through parliament without proper discussion and scrutiny. I believe that particular bill was passed at a later date, so it’s in English law now at least.

This is like one of those “Someone said something really shitty to me and it was only an hour later I thought of all the best things to say…” moments for me.

You were in the right place, the French have a term for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27esprit_de_l%27escalier

Verses I also think you handled that quite well. I would have punched somebody for that.

We know you wouldn’t because you’re a wimp really, but if you had you’d have missed your flight and been held in custody until your comparution immédiate. 🙂

Until some kid at school recognises her on some dodgy website and sends a video round all his mates at school…..

… from an upskirt shot? What sort of school did you go to?!

Classic esprit d’escalier.

I would have punched somebody for that

Knocking the phone out of their hand would be a better idea.

… from an upskirt shot? What sort of school did you go to?!

Not one in the internet age 😉

I think the OP did the only thing he could of done.

I’m not sure what security or even the police for matter, could of done?

If a security guard at an airport asked to see my phone I would tell him to **** off.

I’m pretty certain, in the UK, the police can’t just demand to see your phone, from just a single accusation from a random member of the public.

My phone has nothing dodgy on it but it has my work email on it, which has confidential, commercial information on it. I would be committing gross misconduct if I released it to some security guard.

Until some kid at school recognises her on some dodgy website and sends a video round all his mates at school…..

I don’t think that is a realistic scenereo, what is perhaps more realistic IMO is that when offenders get away with such low level crimes then they perhaps seek to go further for their kicks, which would be genuinely worrying.

A quick google suggests that it is an offence with up t a 2 year jail term in France.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/23/france-introduces-upskiting-law-inspired-stalled-british-efforts/

I think the best course of action would be to alert security, and thanks to this thread I actually now have a “plan of action” should I ever see any such incident, so chapeau DD for bringing it up.

I’m not sure I would have eyeballed the up-skirter if I’m honest, but discretely informing the Girl and/or her Dad would probably have been my own instinct… Like you I also would have run it past the missus first, a woman’s perspective is worth it as being honest, I can never quite gauge if I’m over or under reacting to stuff like this sometimes.

I think the problem is that to some extent they rely on people being uncomfortable with direct confrontation and the little staring match you describe was probably the most nerve wracking bit for the little shit, knowing He’d been spotted, wondering if it was going to end with you informing the girl/family or just a few glares…

All in all I think you did the right thing OP and certainly shouldn’t beat yourself up.

Personally – I’d have made a fuss there and then as long as I was sure what I’d seen.
Certainly made sure I was in front of him so his view stopped.
TBH – if I was sure then he wouldn’t have his phone to be in a position to be deleting any pics but then the bit in most people’s brains that makes you go “what if” doesn’t exist. It would be being handed to the police.
But thats just me.

I’m surprised by the way people are refering to this as “up-skirting”. Sexual harrasment is bad and there are laws against it. But that requires some kind of action beyond sitting on a bench and watching what’s going on around you at a distance on a phone screen. Sexual harrassment requires intrusion of someone’s private space. Secretly filming up a woman’s skirt on a metro in close proximity by slipping the camera under the skirt is sexual harrassment and illegal. Filming Kate Middleton at a distance as her skirt flies in the wind clearly not even in the UK or the tabloids would have had to take down the images.

I’m surprised by the way people are refering to this as “up-skirting”.

Why?

He wasn’t filming a general airport scene……He was zoomed in purely on the girls skirt.

It’s all about the intent and, from the OP’s description it’s hard to ascribe any other intent.

If that’s not upskirting, then what was it?

I feel for you OP I know that sense of frustration/regret. Thinking about it here maybe trying to get pictures of the guy and what was on his phone (over his shoulder) then going to the police/security. That seems like the best hope of getting him ‘legitimately’ strung up. I’d be torn as you are though for the girls sake, I’d imagine the confrontation/attention would be quite distressing and wonder if ignorance is bliss.

Totally agree with molgrips there. Girl didn’t come to any harm, so why tell the family?

I imagine a significant amount of peados are wackimg off to pics of kids that probably didn’t involve any abuse or harm. But it’s still child pornography!!! (I’m not going to Google what the different gradings of child filth are for obvious reasons)

^ stupid quote function..why does it put my comments in quotes and not the bit I’m trying to quote…! Then not let me edit.

If that’s not upskirting, then what was it?

Well, quite!

The family was sat in a cluster of seats, and our perp was sat, at a conservative guess, not more than 3 or 4 metres from them, on his own at another cluster. There was no one between him and the family. I found a picture of Toulouse departures very similar to the area in which they were all sitting. Imagine the family sat where the circle is and our perp sat where the arrow points. These were not the exact seats but this is representative of how close he was to them.

It’s why I mentioned in my OP that I couldn’t quite get how blatant it was. But, and again, you only have my word on this one, as I approached, he pinch zoomed until it was the daughter’s hemline in the image on his screen.

So as our favourite panther says, if not, then what? Genuine question.

Personally I would have done either:
1) Dobbed in to security after they had moved on.
2) Nothing. My experience of being a good Samaritan in controversial cases is that no good deed goes unpunished. Whilst the doer is sick and needs to be found out for society and his own sake, in this instance the girl and family were unharmed until you told them.

Something else that’s not upskirting, perchypanther, because the phone was several meters from the skirt (thanks for the image and your estimate of 3-4m, DD) not up the skirt, held in front of the photographers face and the view was also there for everyone one in the public space to see if they looked in that direction.

I do find the views on this forum extreme sometimes. Comments about dark sun glasses for the beach so as to observe scantily-dressed women without it being obvious are humourous to some (I don’t wear sun glasses on the beach). The Kylie threads are mourned by some (I never contributed), the fit and sporty threads were well supported (but not by me) until banned and then there’s outrage in this case.

I see lots of people doing things in public places I wouldn’t do myself and sometimes disapprove of, being rowdy and drunk, being aggressive, being noisy… . I generally don’t get involved unless a victim asks for or clearly needs help. When someone is oblivious to the noise it’s not for me to tell them to make a complaint about the noise.

I do find the views on this forum extreme sometimes.

Me too. Mostly yours.

If you can’t see that it’s entirely wrong to take your mobile phone and make a concerted effort to surreptitiously take a video of a childs underwear or genitals,regardless of the distance he was sat away from her, entirely without her knowledge or consent, then that’s probably the most extreme thing i’ve ever seen written here.

My answer is simple stand behind the seats(opposite the family and guy)..make a loud noise or laugh loudly or act enthusiastic to shout to your family etc..so the family turns around the eyeball the peado for a second and swanter of with a smug look on your face as the father sees what hes doing pankidly..and comes over and confronts him..you did nothing but have a coughing fit or laughed at something funny right?…and besides it’s fun watching people squirm..

Are either of these suitable:

She dressed like that and was obviously asking for it?

Sidle up to him, sit down beside and ask to see ‘the good stuff’?

Any good? Ah well, I is flummoxed then… 😉

Me too. Mostly yours.

Extreme, and in this case deliberately obtuse, I reckon.
(Which will no doubt continue)..

It’s wrong to me but it isn’t wrong enough to society for anything to be done, perchypanther. Security wouldn’t have done anything, the gendarmes might have asked to check the picture sin the phone memory but that’s not sure, the procureur would have shaken his head and gone back to dealing with the beaten wives, the serious cases of harcèlement sexuel with traumatised victims, it’s wrong on a scale too low to waste resources on.

Other people have much stricter morals than I, they block hospitals to prevent women consulting for abortion and make a perfect pain in the arse of themselves becuase of their so-called high moral standards. Not me.

Doing more than DD did would have made him a dangerous vigilante, doing what he did upset people and solved nothing. Doing nothing was his best option IMO, especially in a place where he doesn’t know the law. That’s why he started the thead. I’m reassuring him that if he’d taken the guy on or got the authorities involved he’d have made no progres and caused even more upset. If he regrets telling the family rather than leaving them oblivious I understand that. He was in a no win situation.

Uh-huh

….and with that, Edukator slowly lit his Gauloises and shrugged.

I’m out.

because the phone was several meters from the skirt

… but using (a potentially hi-res) camera zoomed in. If he’d sat there looking at her gusset with binoculars rather than a phone, would you be saying the same thing?

If you can’t see that it’s entirely wrong to take your mobile phone and…

It is certainly morally wrong, but that’s not in question. The issue is what can be done about it. And without the protection of law, there really isn’t much. Unless you want to take him on at his own game, e.g. video him videoing her.

Aren’t TV programmes like Love Island the equivalent in voyeurism?

Aren’t TV programmes like Love Island the equivalent in voyeurism?

no, because consent.

Think you did okay in this one DD, don’t beat yourself up about it.

As a father of a teenage daugher I thin Id have preferred to hear what happened. But then I’m 6’4″ with a foul temper in airport lounges in general.

In my case, I’d suspect I’d have asked him very loudly about what he was doing as someone had seen him do it. Possibly loud enough for the security to overhear, but certainly loud enough for the rest of the seating area to understand.

Ignorance is sometimes not bliss.

I once stopped a couple of youths breaking in to a car (in the old days when you could grab a Ford window from the the top and basically peel it down). Was never sure whether to leave a note on the car or not. Possibly in that case ignorance is okay, but in your situation, someone had to know and really I don’t think either the family or the security were bad options.

It is certainly morally wrong, but that’s not in question. The issue is what can be done about it.

Well, DD had two options – make him aware that his blatant activities had not gone unnoticed, or publically shame the **** by loudly drawing everyone’s attention to what was going on.

In a foreign airport where you are unsure of the law, and not necessarily equipped to argue/explain your point in that language, I think he did as much as he could do, and many people wouldn’t have done that.

I suppose you might have gone and asked directions from the nearest Gendarme while pointing in the general direction of the perv, if only for the satisfaction of him frantically having to delete his footage.

Not sure I would have told the parents, as the incident had ‘passed’ by that point, and the risk of the dad using the perp’s head as a football and getting into hot water himself is unknown.

molgrips

Could have videoed him videoing her, then put it online. See how he likes it.

That would of been ideal, I never would of thought of that at the time. Even just to use as evidence.

I’d probably of told the dad. Although pointing out the perv to security would of been better in hindsight.

DD as already said you did something. Most on here would of spotted the perv, found a corner then came on here to say what they had seen. Possibly leave him a passive aggressive note.

video him videoing her

Seems like a reasonable plan-of-action.

Otherwise go up to the perp and in a loud voice cry out ‘Sinner repent, let Jesus into your heart and your sins will be forgiven’ – depending on many funny looks you are prepared to put up with……….

And without the protection of law

The laws are there, it’s the way they’re applied. And the application of the law evolves on a daily basis with jurisprudences. French courts are more lenient, the prison population is a lot lower than the UK despite a higher crime rate. Un rappel à la loi, a legal telling off is common for minor offences. Sentences are lower and less likely to be applied, the chance of going prison for a first offence with a sentence of less than 2 years is quite low. We don’t have red top papers, there’s no public outrage, it’s just different.

The “have a go” heroes of the British press are much rarer this side of the channel. The idea of a citizens arrest falls flat at the first hurdle. You can’t use physical force other than to help someone in danger. In this case if DD had confronted the guy and he’d walked off DD would have broken the law if he’s tried to stop him because no-one was in danger.

We’re all social animals, people get a feel for what they can and can’t get away with, when you travel you need to adapt, and if in doubt keep a low profile. Airports are strange places, people from all over the world with their own cultural background and behaviour.

I would like to commend you, DD. There are probably other things that you could have done but at least you did something. Most wouldn’t, which is part of the problem. You did and you deserve recognition for that.

Me, I’d probably have stood so close in front of his phone that the only thing in the frame would have been my groin, which I would have been scratching conspicuously. When he finally looked up He’d see me filming him with my phone. I’d have said that I like the cut of his jib and if he’d care to sashay along to my place with me, there are some videos I’d like to share with him and maybe I could persuade him to partake in a few.
If that didn’t send him away at a high rate of speed nothing will. Then I’d have posted his picture to social media.

Depending on the age of the daughter, wouldn’t it meet the test of child pornography?

Then I’d have posted his picture to social media.

And broken the law in doing so unless he was a member of a crowd and not singled out. And if you accuse him of anyhting you risk getting done for diffamation.

We live in a crazy legal jungle of claim and counter claim where the truth seems to matter little even when it’s established – “that’s not x, his fingers aren’t that fat”:

https://www.20minutes.fr/justice/2527839-20190528-proces-sandra-muller-assigner-femmes-diffamation-defense-risquee-apres-metoo

And broken the law in doing so unless he was a member of a crowd and not singled out.

I have never looked into the laws governing photography in public places in France but if I’d posted it from the UK, or possibly even posted it from France to a UK based account, I would not have broken any laws whatsoever. It is perfectly legal to take photos of people in public, whether they are part of a crowd or not. I can zoom in as close as I like to your face. I can’t, unlike France apparently, invade your privacy by zooming in up your skirt from any distance, whether you are in a crowd or not.

Truth is a valid defense for Defamation.

Have you changed your original position then? Surely if its illegal in france for me to take his picture if he’s not part of a crowd, then doesn’t it follow that he is not allowed to record images up her skirt, unless she is part of a crowd?

Again, well done DD

It’s all well and good saying what you would do in this situation. Often in circumstances like these your mind is racing and you aren’t always thinking rationally.

Imo DD did the correct thing. This voyeur could go on to do far worse things in the future.

As a female I feel utterly disgusted that this man was filming the girl. I like to think I would have done the same and approached the family too.

On NYE a few years ago I realised that a guy with an slr was doing this to drunken teenage girls on the Tube, was only as I was getting off that I was sure as I could see the screen, I didnt really process do anything & not sure what I could/should do, but had just enough time to give him the **** signal through the window!

I would have got between her and the camera man as a human shield. I may also have done a little dance and winked suggestively at him.