I’ve never really been a fan of Whytes, but if I had the cash (I don’t) I’d be getting one of these…..Lovely looking frame, IMO 🙂

The best pics I can find are HERE I just can’t find any detail pics on t’interweb, and that rear end is beautiful, as you’ll know if you saw it in MBR….

And also-
The stickers let it down a bit, but this is wonderful IMO, and properly made in the UK 🙂

Nice…but what is with that chain guide on the bottom pic 😆

I can’t see anything remarkable in that top photo.

That Empire is reet tasty!

That Empire is truly hideous.

Whyte is nice and understated -finish makes it indistinguishable from a £70 Taiwanese frame though.

I can’t see anything remarkable in that top photo.

No neither can I. Which is why I linked to the MBR article……
🙂 There are just no pics about 🙁

Same with the Empire, but there are more on their website. It’s something of a Marmite bike, but you can’t argue is different!

http://empire-cycles.com/product.html#

well peter you do know marin bike are not very fashionable on here do you?

Dibbs has put up a few pictures of his 19 Ti.

the chain guides got the top roller way up there to help the suspension.

Here’s my reasoning why they do it……………
*Having the pivot down at the BB gives very active suspension (spesh, trek etc)

*Having the pivot up higher/foreward (still in line with the chainrings) (SC, orange, commencal) gives better pedaling (the extreem example being the prototype orange’s that MOJO had a year or two back with the S shaped down tube)

*Now a DH bike needs plush suspension, and lots of it. So youd think having it back and low would be good, but that leaves you with a very curved (shorter swingarm = smaller radius) axel path.

*But what if you could move the chainline independantly of BB height?
you could put the pivot way up high,
keep the swingarm sensibly short (keeps it stiff),
the curvature of the axel path is less of an issue (its stil a circle, but its not pulling forewards towards the seat at the end of its stroke)
and move the chain about to give it just the right ammount of chain growth.

Having the pivot that high without the guide whould result in a bike that practicaly locked out under pedaling!

Its not uncommon, Trek used it on the Diesle, Sesion10, Blafa on the BB7, its less an issue on XC/trail bikes as the suspension doesnt have to move as far round the circle.

it looks nothing like this £70 Taiwanese frame! 😉

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kinesis-Alloy-17-5in-MTB-Frame-in-brushed-silver_W0QQitemZ120396751862QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR?hash=item120396751862&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:1|39:1|240:1318

I think that empire bike looks fantastic, when you see it in MBR, it’s truly a work of engineering art.

The stickers on the other hand are bobbins.

If I were them, I’d look into having the “Empire” logo either formed into the frame as part of the moulding process or kinda air-brushed when the frame is bead/shot blasted so it’d never wear off.

Hmmmmmmmm………………… ❓

Hmmm……….

Woody, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

And, if you’re going to flatter, why not flatter a bike that was WAAAAAY ahead of it’s time! SanAns were truly ground breaking, back in the day.

I think that empire bike looks fantastic, when you see it in MBR, it’s truly a work of engineering art.

The stickers on the other hand are bobbins

Agreed. I’d love to see a plain one in the flesh, even if it does look a bit like a Kirk Revolution! (Which was also an amazing fame in it’s day)

I think the high pivot point is about having an initial rearward axle path. If you think about the arc the swingarm describes the high the pivot is, the more rearward the initial travel is. And the idler is there to keep the bike active under pedaling.

The construction methodology on the Empire though is truly groundbreaking and very exciting, but apart from the flexibility of the design process (they are talking about ease of integrating gear boxes for example) I don’t know what the other major benefits of sand casting are. One would expect strenght/weight would be the key benefit, but I’ve still not read anything that states that explicitly. I guess you have more control over where you put material, which ultimately contributes to this.

Can the engineers here explain?

the san an has always and will always be my dream bike

Dirt had an articel on the empire a while back, said somethign about the frame weighing a much as a “normal” DH bike so that it would be accepted by the public as being as strong as a normal bike as it would only take one to crack and the whole project/technology would be sucppered.

The next generation could weigh anything down to half the current ones!

Sub 30lb DH bike anyone?

I’m sure I’ve seen one of those Empire frames hanging up on the wall in a bike shop in Leuchars, Fife. It certainly looked a bit of a burly beast that’s for sure. It had a bit of stealth bomber look about it. I will have to pop back for another look now.

HoratioHufnagel, Thats the same frame as a Dirty Jo or the Brand X from CRC.

http://www.dirtyjobikes.co.uk/Frames/Dirty_Jo_Semi_Creme_

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=12527

Not to be underestimated either, I ran the triple butted version (£100) for years as my race bike!

I like the look of the Whyte and the Empire… But I do love a bargain.

Would be very interested in a trail / AM version of the empire – it’s a great design IMO. Girders!

Tinsy i’ve thought about getting one but can’t find any geometry info! the CRC site lists the TT length as the same for all frames, and they don’t list the effective top tube length at all.

God, that empire is very poorly finished. The one they had in Dirt, sans decals looked much better. Think it was unpainted too. I won’t be rushing out to buy one at any rate.

HoratioHufnagel, not sure what the top tube length measures at on the cheap frame but the 18″ frame with a 100mm stem was the same stretch as when I built all the bits onto my 18″ Tinbred with a 90mm stem if thats any help to you. I got a pic of it built up if you would like to see how it could look?

Whyte Ti would defo be my choice of geared HT if I had the cash. Then again the ally ones are fine but love the curved seat and chain stays on the Ti. Did a trailquest a few weeks ago and other than my SS and a Global Ti the only other HTs being ridden were Whytes. Very nice and first ones I’ve seen in action.

sand cast for christsake, can’t they even be arsed to pressure cast it, i wonder what the sprue height is when they cast it?

there’s an original whyte HT in Broadribbs Leamington, what is it 5 years old? they still want full price for it though

sq225917
sand cast for christsake, can’t they even be arsed to pressure cast it, i wonder what the sprue height is when they cast it?

I too, shall be worrying about the sprue height…… 😯

Sprue Clicky

*scratches head*

Aye, the high / forward suspension action on the Empire makes for a rearwards / upwards axle path so very effective, but would be horrible to pedal. Hence the roller to match the chain with the pivot. Like a Trek Session 10.

Sod that Whyte Ti, I want this Dekerf

Dekerfs are beautiful bikes

That Whyte Ti frame looks lush…

the whytes nice,

though i’d prefer the carbon ht.

and i likes the empire, though as said, i prefered the original pre paint/sticker model.
looking forward to riding one though 8)

Whyte looks like any other generic hardtail. Empire looks hideous. And that Dekerf is bloody hideous too. Next.

well said coogan,thought I was in the twilight zone there for a while,and yes I can understand why nobody is drooling

That dekerf is as ugly a bike as I’ve seen in a while, WTF is going on with that headtude gusset

That empire is in my LBS- Craigs’ shop in Rawtenstall..

It looks loads better in the flesh… even with the stickers.

( The stickers are made by Owen- who used to work there…)

http://www.slikgraphics.com/

There’s a few pics bouncing around of Dibbs’ Whyte off of here…

Not liking the Dekerf. The Whyte is cool, but I prefer the new Shedfire.