Seems there’s a signal for ‘slow down’ – perfectly applicable for pulling into an area to allow drivers to pass, perhaps?

not at all! The signal means slow down (for traffic lights, t-junction, stationary traffic, zebra crossing etc)

It does not mean ‘pull in’

You can’t have one signal meaning two different things. Clear communication of risks is the whole point of them!

Strikes me that those who say cyclists shouldn’t ride two abreast have never actually ridden on a club ride and don’t actually understand the basic reasons for it and reality of group road riding…

as pointed out on page 1 or 2, to safely pass 10 single file riders in one hit you do need alot of space, to pass 5 pairs you need alot less space.

Ten of me would have formed several single file groups with gaps for a four mile stretch of very tight windy road.

I’m not entering into a perpetual circular argument with each new person that logs in and joins the debate..

Er yeah, sorry, forgot to declare I struggle with long sentences.

Strikes me that those who say cyclists shouldn’t ride two abreast have never actually ridden on a club ride and don’t actually understand the basic reasons for it and reality of group road riding…

just the selfishness of it

It’s all just another reason for riding off road
this times a gazillion

and you never ride on the road when riding off road?

serious question, when i can be arsed i have ridden off road with a club, rides tend to be about 15 but have been known to get to almost 30 riders, so quite a big group by any standards.

I live in Cheltenham so am, i guess, in the fortunate position to be able to ride a good selection of trails with no need for a car. However it is not possible to do a ride without using tarmac to link sections together. It is inevitable that once in a while you will have to deal with a car. no one tries to hold a car up but sometimes it is not possible to not hold a car up, small cotswold lanes tend not to be the ideal place for cars overtaking groups of cyclists.

From experience there are very few places in the UK where you can do a ride, and i mean a few hours at least, and never cross a road, unless all the riding you do is in trail centres.

Whether i ride a road bike or an mtb i will on occasion be in the position where i have a car trying to get past.

You freddies get very uppity about roadcraft– or lack of— bring in testing i say — cycling proficiency, would create some employment and help with issues such as this…..

Ten of me would have formed several single file groups with gaps for a four mile stretch of very tight windy road.

which to repeat earlier statements, you do not want a car in the middle of a group of cyclists, it tends to end badly, been there done that earned the scar tissue.

You need the car to get past the group in one clean move, that is the ideal, anything less is dangerous for the cyclists.

10 pages – great effort

Having read it all I would like to share some conclusions

1 you can find cocks anywhere
2 everyone has a right to use the road safely
3 everyone has the right to use the road to go about their lawful business
4 our laws don’t give all the answers, so you have to apply your brains
5 being nice to each other is a good idea, and also usually safest for all concerned

And finally – some of us (especially those of us who have read the whole thread) have too much time on our hands

Just seems a bit rude and selfish of the riders really, they will always be going slower on average than a vehicle so not actively letting a car through is is just arrogant and selfish.

many of the roads are the same layout as they were 100 years ago when people were on horseback, so of course there are issues.

So how many more centuries must pass and road fatalities must occur before the powers that be realize that the roads are not used by horseback any more.
These problems are not just restricted to remote country low traffic lanes, even major arteries are not up to standard IMO. This is a small country with a large population of taxpayers and the state of the roads never ceases to amaze me.
Anyhow I digress.

you do not want a car in the middle of a group of cyclists, it tends to end badly, been there done that earned the scar tissue

Even with adequate gaps?

I would not put myself in the position of being a mobile road block in the first place. So it’s moot.

And I’d not pull over to remonstrate with cyclists either.

@rudebwoy,

or maybe drivers need to be educated in how to behave around vulnerable road users such as horses and cyclists?

After all drivers are only allowed to drive by virtue of a licence?

and you never ride on the road when riding off road?

I do I do.. and with the kids in a trailer to playgroup and everyfing.. all around the winding lanes of Devon..
but I am very courteous towards faster moving traffic.. I don’t want to be in anyone’s way for a moment longer than I have to

I totally understand it but I imagine that the majority of motorists really really don’t

I live in Cheltenham so am, i guess, in the fortunate position to be able to ride a good selection of trails with no need for a car

I live on Dartmoor so ner ner ne ner ner 😆

So how many more centuries must pass and road fatalities must occur before the powers that be realize that the roads are not used by horseback any more.

you might be surprised how many quiet lanes are still used by walkers, horses and cyclists. and that some of these features might help slow the cars down?

These problems are not just restricted to remote country low traffic lanes, even major arteries are not up to standard IMO. This is a small country with a large population of taxpayers and the state of the roads never ceases to amaze me.

Welcome to NIMBY land. Can’t build a bypass, or a housing estate, or a railway line, infact sod it build nothing!!!!

This is a small country with a large population of taxpayers

Where are you from? And how long have you been here?

1) Traffic volumes are extremely high in many places, so roads need repairing a lot.

2) Do you know what happens when they try to improve or replace roads? It usually involves destroying something beautiful and upsetting a lot of people.

3) Road death stats are actually very low in the UK. Very low compared to the rest of Europe and the US.

4) The road network is very dense. There are lots of high volume roads close to each other. So although the country is small there is still a hell of a lot of roads.

I live in Cheltenham so am, i guess, in the fortunate position to be able to ride a good selection of trails with no need for a car
I live on Dartmoor so ner ner ne ner ner

Prefer the cotwolds to dartmoor anyway 🙂

all around the winding lanes of Devon..

having spent the last week in north devon, the more impatient drivers seem to have london plates on their cars? mind you i have noticed this in the Cotswolds as well….

I wonder where the OP lives….. maybe there is a theme here.

could be on to something..

the drivers round here are generally very nice.. (except my mother in law)

where’d you stay in North Devon..? Anywhere nice..?

or maybe drivers need to be educated in how to behave around vulnerable road users such as horses and cyclists?

The vast majority are educated and do behave otherwise there would be carnage.

The vast majority are educated and do behave otherwise there would be carnage.

To be blunt drivers aren’t.

At no point in your test are you expected to overtake a horse, to understand what to do if you see a cyclist riding in the middle of a lane. There is an expectation that a driver will know what to do, but most people can’t empathise because they have never been in the position of the person being passed.

This is one of the fundamental problems, think about it a driver can drive on motorway never having been taught what to expect. There are test centres where it is not possible to experience a dual carriageway!

The stupid situation where you could tow trailers with no training has been partially solved, but there are plenty of drivers who legally can tow a caravan but have no idea how to do it.

where’d you stay in North Devon..? Anywhere nice..?

Barnstaple, well i suppose someone has to….and whilst i bought the road bike and have ridden it a few times, no point bringing a mtb as there appears no where short of going off to exmoor for a ride. I really can’t be doing with sticking a bike in car just to go for a ride.

We don’t know the road, but even the OP said “its wide enough for two cars to pass but not two cars and a bike” so exactly where is he going to go if he starts passing a long single file of bikes and an oncoming car appears from around the bend?? (which is likely given the road is “just a bit too winding for me to pass safely”)

From the OPs own statement there was no option to pass safely – so I can’t understand people getting worked up about the roadies not letting him attempt an unsafe pass. The only realistic option was for them to pull in somewhere safe and let him past, which they eventually did.

Your arguments I fear are too well reasoned for this forum, Graham. They fall on deaf ears.

This really pi$$es me off so I’m afraid I will be antagonistic on that one.

Firstly there is minimum speed limits on roads, just because you can drive at the speed limit, or faster than 20 mph doesn’t mean you are automatically entitled to.

Secondly, you sir at the wheel 2 ton weapon have a duty of care towards vulnerable road users. Be they walkers, joggers, professional cyclists or kids or elderly people on their bikes. Denying that makes you a c0ck in anyone’s book. Shame our penal system refuses to send killers down for proper sentences. Don’t get me started on the whole “I didn’t see you mate”.

Thirdly, you obviously shouldn’t be on the road since you do not know your highway code, and simple common sense is beyond your grasp when behind the wheel, as it happens far too often unfortunately.

Fourthly, people like you make me want to sell my mountain bike. I won’t get into that one because to be fair there is more to it than just the original post.

Finally, by travelling for 4 miles at 20 mph you have lost the whole of 8.5 minutes compare to dring at 50 mph (windy road, so generous).

8.5 minutes worth putting 8 people lives at risk? Seriously? Them behaving in a safe manner arrogant because they lost you the whole of 8.5 minutes????????

FFS

8.5 minutes worth putting 8 people lives at risk? Seriously?

You’ve missed the point.

No-one is saying that the driver should have the right to barge through.

My point is that in choosing that bit of road and maintaining their group formation the group as a whole seem to have taken action that they knew would cause hold ups for motorists. I don’t think that was particularly good.

My point is that in choosing that bit of road and maintaining their group formation the group as a whole seem to have taken action that they knew would cause hold ups for motorists. I don’t think that was particularly good.

Okay. So we shouldn’t cycle on the roads.

Thanks for clearing that up. How selfish of us.

I haven’t missed the point at all.

The only reason to ever take is because you want to get there faster. In this case by 8.5 minutes. So just a shade over 2 minutes per mile. The riders did stop.

The only, single reason the driver becomes irate is because of the perceived time lost.

8.5 minutes IS the point. and it’s arrogant to think that a group of people should make way so you can get where you want to go 8.5 minutes quicker.

The only, single reason the driver becomes irate is because of the perceived time lost.

absolute utter bollocks..

it’s about worrying about the safety of the overtake.. nothing more

unless you’re an utter nutjob..

are you..?

Finally, by travelling for 4 miles at 20 mph you have lost the whole of 8.5 minutes compare to dring at 50 mph (windy road, so generous).

8.5 minutes worth putting 8 people lives at risk? Seriously? Them behaving in a safe manner arrogant because they lost you the whole of 8.5 minutes???????? If you are going to rant you need to get your maths right… 7min12sec I think.

Okay. So we shouldn’t cycle on the roads.

That’s not at all what I’ve said now is it?

I’ve said you shouldn’t cycle on some roads in large groups UNLESS you are prepared to mitigate the inconvenience to others. See the critical mass thread, for instance.

There are a few roads by me I won’t go on.

I haven’t missed the point at all.

The only reason to ever take is because you want to get there faster. In this case by 8.5 minutes. So just a shade over 2 minutes per mile. The riders did stop.

Well you were saying that cyclist safety was not important. Of course I wasn’t. My point is that everyone has a duty to minimise the disruption they cause to everyone else. And to me as a cyclist, that means not delaying motorists more than is reasonable.

If you think 8.5 minutes is nothing, next time you are in a queue at the supermarket I’ll stand at the checkout in front of you chatting on my phone for 8.5 minutes. Let’s see how that goes down, shall we?

Strikes me that those who say cyclists shouldn’t ride two abreast have never actually ridden on a club ride and don’t actually understand the basic reasons for it and reality of group road riding…
just the selfishness of it

Argh! How many times does this need saying? Cyclists were doing it before cars were about! Where’s the logic which says it’s now selfish just because there are more cars?

And how many times do we have to point out that on a narrow road it’s also safer for cyclists, the driver behind and also the driver coming the other way?

Really, there’s a lot of opinion on this thread based on zero experience of actually riding in a group. Go and ride in a group a few times, experience it and then come back and give your views…

And in the meantime, remember that the ‘cars first, cyclists second’ attitude is killing an maiming people…

Oh, and without club riding there’d be no Armistead, Cooke, Wiggins, Cav, Froome, Hoy, Pendleton. The whole lot, they’d never have got into riding bikes and competing…

absolute utter bollocks..
it’s about worrying about the safety of the overtake.. nothing more

unless you’re an utter nutjob..

are you..?

fight or Flight

I wish to apologise for linking to the.. daily mail…. but it was the first link i could find.

It is a known problem with men and being held up.

absolute utter bollocks..

it’s about worrying about the safety of the overtake.. nothing more

unless you’re an utter nutjob..

are you..?
+1

and also just the fact that thay could of pulled in and let him thur. thay dident have to but would of been jolly nice of them.

but when riding tight twisty roads it is amazing how many plp nearly have head on’s just then thay dont have to slow down for even one second

or maybe drivers need to be educated in how to behave around vulnerable road users such as horses and cyclists?

[quote]The vast majority are educated and do behave otherwise there would be carnage.[/quote]

To be blunt drivers aren’t.

This argument could go round forever but by the same token I see cyclists doing things every day that make my hair stand on end and listening to you it would appear they are all model road users fighting off big bad people in cars attempting to mow them down!

I think you need to get a grip on reality and realise that a bit of give and take can go a long way.

If you’re worrying about the safety of the overtake and aren’t bothered about being slightly slower than you would with a clear road, you wouldn’t become irate.

Therefore the annoyance/anger felt whilst driver slower is direct result of the perception of being made late.

And in the meantime, remember that the ‘cars first, cyclists second’ attitude is killing an maiming people..

That’s not my attitude though.

My attitude is people first, regardless of transport. Don’t needlessly piss other people off.

I get just as annoyed when ignorant motorists cause me long delays too. Nothing to do with cyclists being second.

The debate isn’t about road cyclist against car drivers. It’s good road users vs bad road users and there are both on each side.

Each time you take the road, be it on a bike or in a car, we need to choose which one it’s going to be. Of course it starts with having the right information to start with.

cyclists doing things every day that make my hair stand on end and listening to you it would appear they are all model road users fighting off big bad people in cars attempting to mow them down!

not going to argue, it pisses me off to see cyclists riding at speed on the pavement, the wrong way down one way streets, off pavements into moving traffic.

But by the same token i am the one in the car, i am the one who is going to be ok if i hit a pedestrian or a cyclist, so i do have to accept i have a duty of care to those around me. I might think some speed limits are a bit arbitrary, but they are what they are. I might like to park on double yellow lines to make my life easier but i know they are there for a reason so i don’t. I applied for a driving licence i knew the rules when i made that application and i accept that they are what they are.

I also feel that more should be made to ensure that EVERYONE is trained to ride a bike in traffic. For a start it might make kids think a bit more, give them freedom to do things rather than sit in front of the TV all day etc and also make them better drivers because they understand both sides a little better.

a bit of give and take can go a long way.

very true, but drivers need to understand that they will be ok and it is the cyclist who will get hurt if they make a mistake overtaking. Hence cyclists riding defensively.

I hate cyclists. They boil my piss. Every time I’m inconvenienced by some I come on a cycling forum to whine about it. People may think I’m unnaturally aggressive, going bald or that I’ve belatedly realised my wife is cheating on me, but I don’t care. These people have to understand how much I hate them.

That’s not at all what I’ve said now is it?

I’ve said you shouldn’t cycle on some roads in large groups UNLESS you are prepared to mitigate the inconvenience to others. See the critical mass thread, for instance.

But this group HAS mitigated the inconvenience by cycling in a tightly knit group, which can be passed quickly. (See Graham’s post on the previous page).

I can understand why some people don’t agree with that. We can debate it all day and fire valid comments at each other continuously from both sides of the coin. But that’s not really the point. It’s about individual beliefs. And everyone will have their own, and their own reasons. But in this case, it is the cyclist at risk. It’s nothing more than an inconvenience for the driver. Whatever you believe SHOULD or SHOULDN’T be there, just take a minute to take a deep breath and think, you know what, it’s not that big a deal. Those guys are just hoping they’re still alive by the time I’ve passed them. I can sit it out a bit

The fact is, in this instance, you believe they shouldn’t be there. Despite them riding (to their mind, and quite reasonably) considerately.

There are a few roads by me I won’t go on.

To be honest, I refuse to cycle on the vast majority of roads. I’m lucky enough to have a good network of country lanes where I can ride all day and see very few cars. But when I get on the proper roads (and sometimes it can’t be avoided) it makes me very uncomfortable.

That is the ONLY reason I don’t cycle on the vast majority of busy roads. In 15 years of daily driving I have NEVER once been held up long enough by cyclists to believe that I would be in any way acting selfishly, or truly inconveniencing anyone. I’ve never once seen it.

My attitude is people first, regardless of transport. Don’t needlessly piss other people off.

My attitude is safety first. I will piss other people off if it makes me (and them) safer.

I’d rather not obviously. But as a general rule I’d much rather be “selfish” and alive than “considerate” and dead.

Whatever you believe SHOULD or SHOULDN’T be there, just take a minute to take a deep breath and think, you know what, it’s not that big a deal. Those guys are just hoping they’re still alive by the time I’ve passed them. I can sit it out a bit

It needed saying twice