Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 75 total)
  • Illegal Scottish Mountain Bike Trails
  • donald
    Free Member

    Landward tonight on BBC Scotland at 19:30. Dougie goes looking for illegal trails.

    Is he going to England?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Is it legal to dig, build etc. anywhere – seems strange if it is

    bigjim
    Full Member

    No you can’t just build trails where you like. Common misconception. Will be interesting to see if the program has got it right or if it’s cringe time. Good to raise the issue though, some problems around Dunkeld at the moment with conflict with mtbers turning historic little footpaths on private land into teh rad trailz apparently.

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    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Is it legal to dig, build etc. anywhere – seems strange if it is

    Strange that it’s illegal to build your own trails, without permission?

    Not really, someone owns the land, you need permission first.

    Can get into the rights and wrongs of landownership, but I suspect that’s a deviation of the thread! (Or perhaps where the thread should go! 😆 )

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Must have written it a little less clearly than I thought it 😉 It was a response to the OP’s slight snugness about there being no illegal trails in Scotland

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    No you can’t just build trails where you like. Common misconception. Will be interesting to see if the program has got it right or if it’s cringe time. Good to raise the issue though, some problems around Dunkeld at the moment with conflict with mtbers turning historic little footpaths on private land into teh rad trailz apparently.

    Are you sure? I was out the other night with Adam and Doug who built pretty much everything round Dunkeld recently. We were having a discussion about new trails etc and they say that the landowner has not authorised new trails yet but talks are ongoing. That’s Birnam hill BTW. The FC are in charge of Craigvinean and there are plans afoot to take control of the upkeep of the trails there from them. As far as i was led to believe there is no more conflict there than anywhere else. All pretty respectful on both sides with a lot of work going on to secure more land / trails.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    the shows on about unofficial stuff at glentress btw.

    DickBarton
    Full Member

    Started good, went bad as it seemed to suggest anything that wasn’t a trail centre was ‘wrong’…

    donald
    Free Member

    Sounded like a gentle request from the FC for trail builders to talk to them rather than just crack on. On the face of it that sounds reasonable.

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    I’ll continue to dig in my local unnatural, monocultured, otherwise dead hillside. Meh.

    NZCol
    Full Member

    Here’s our take on it – https://tweedvalleytrails.org/news/2018/4/23/tvtas-response-to-landward-a-rider-led-solution-to-wild-trails

    mactheknife
    Full Member

    Linky no workey

    NZCol
    Full Member

    Ta for fixing link, i’ve not come to terms with the actual website upgrade that was so eagerly awaited in 1999…;-)

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Decent response. I guess ultimately you need to prove the tourism claim with numbers, funding if you did? I dunno, worth a go?

    Losing the trail network would be a huge blow to the Tweed Valley – it brings tourism, recreation, opportunity, and encourages an active community

    bigjim
    Full Member

    I knew that one cut into the Fort scheduled monument would cause problems! I thought Historic Scotland were going to freak.

    I thought the MTB ranger and dmbins were very good.


    @mactheknife
    yeah apparently some issue on atholl estate land to the north of the town, I’ve never been and it’s second hand info but an old popular little footpath has had some work done on it to turn it into a mtb trail kind of situation and it’s riled locals it seems, I know no more.

    BoardinBob
    Full Member

    Genuine question. Is every foot path on a hill/Munro sanctioned? They may be now but I’m assuming at first they weren’t officially built by the landowner?

    bigjim
    Full Member

    What do you mean by sanctioned?

    Spin
    Free Member

    every foot path on a hill/Munro sanctioned? They may be now but I’m assuming at first they weren’t officially built by the landowner?

    You should check out the Scottish Outdoor Access Code for the full story but in very basic terms you can ride wherever you like in Scotland (path or no path) so long as you are not invading people’s privacy or interfering with them doing their jobs. A most enlightened piece of legislation.

    iainc
    Full Member

    Big difference between riding across ground in accordance with the spirit of the Access Code and building a trail with berms, features, steps and drops though….

    scotroutes
    Full Member

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    Genuine question. Is every foot path on a hill/Munro sanctioned? They may be now but I’m assuming at first they weren’t officially built by the landowner?

    </div>

    Munro/hillpaths will have come about in a number of ways. Ancient drovers roads, military roads, stalkers paths and estate tracks all provide access to the hills but were never really aimed at getting to the top of them. Of course, deer stalking and the like also created a network of tracks which were often upgraded and maintained, but not for the purposes of public recreation.

    Now, there are various landowners (public and private) building and maintaining paths and tracks for recreational use bit these are often subject to tight planning regulations – particularly for things like windfarms, hydro schemes, hunting, shooting etc. but all are done by or with the permission of the landowner.

    Spin
    Free Member

    Big difference between riding across ground in accordance with the spirit of the Access Code and building a trail with berms, features, steps and drops though….

    Absolutely. Didn’t see the program, did they make that clear?

    mintimperial
    Full Member

    Decent response. I guess ultimately you need to prove the tourism claim with numbers, funding if you did?

    Well, I know that anecdotes aren’t data, but: I went up to Glentress/Innerleithen for the first time ever last month, drawn pretty much entirely by the reputation the place has for having shedloads of interesting off-piste stuff. We had a great time the two days we stayed (spending money on food and accommodation midweek in the off-season fwiw). I was amazed by just how much quality stuff there is to ride up there, and will definitely be back to ride it again. The officially sanctioned trailcentre stuff that we used to link things up seemed ok, but I’d not drive the eight hour round trip just for that.

    We also didn’t encounter a single mardy walker anywhere on the trails, it was bloody lovely… 😉

    theblackmount
    Free Member

    Going off the OP’s original point slightly but relevant nonetheless

    “Now, there are various landowners (public and private) building and maintaining paths and tracks for recreational use bit these are often subject to tight planning regulations – particularly for things like windfarms, hydro schemes, hunting, shooting etc. but all are done by or with the permission of the landowner.”

    Really? Hydro and Windfarms maybe just. But otherwise I’d say not…

    The environmental impact of the thousands of miles of LRT’s bashed across our moors and Glens – without planning permission – in the name of “farming” and “estate management” utterly eclipse any cheeky trailbuilding within FC land and elsewhere. And the FC’s management of many of our forests seemingly cannot be questioned.

    Not defending what these guys were doing across a sensitive historic site.

    DickBarton
    Full Member

    You should check out the Scottish Outdoor Access Code for the full story but in very basic terms you can ride wherever you like in Scotland (path or no path) so long as you are not invading people’s privacy or interfering with them doing their jobs. A most enlightened piece of legislation.

    You mean –

    You should check out the Scottish Outdoor Access Code for the full story but in very basic terms you can ride responsibly wherever you like in Scotland (path or no path) so long as you are not invading people’s privacy or interfering with them doing their jobs. A most enlightened piece of legislation.

    chickenman
    Full Member

    Theblackmount x 1000!

    mc
    Free Member

    The big problem with any trail, is it becomes the landowners responsibility.

    If somebody builds a trail on your land that’s poorly built, and you are aware of it, should somebody get injured as a result of the poor design/construction, then you are potentially liable, unless you can prove either you weren’t aware of it, or had taken reasonable precautions to minimise risk. Things like mountainbike trails exiting onto/crossing existing footpaths are a huge liability, but far too often the people building illegally don’t think about the risks, then get upset when the landowner destroys the trail.

    And an often missed part of the SOAC (Scottish Outdoor Access Code), is universal access does not apply to custom built trails. If somebody was to build a new designated footpath, you’re not legally allowed to ride a bike (or a horse) on that foot path, just the same as walkers wouldn’t be able to walk on a custom built mountainbike trail.
    When you actually read the SOAC, there are quite a lot of exceptions, with the other big exception being anywhere that’s been designated as a sporting venue. A prime example would be if the Innerleithen chairlift had proceeded, the planning permission would have included everything north of the SUW being designated a sporting venue with the only exception being existing ROWs. The SOAC would not apply to quite a large area, and if you did ride the area without paying for access, it would be no different from going into your local gym without paying.

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    You should check out the Scottish Outdoor Access Code for the full story but in very basic terms you can ride wherever you like in Scotland

    Almost but the key term is responsible access and as stated above a lot of sensible exceptions. Including leaving when the land manager requests.

    speedstar
    Full Member

    The guys up at the mast in Inverness have done a great thing in meeting with the landowner and actually paying a rent for the rights to build trails there. The agreement means that everyone who is a member of the mast trails association (for £10 a year) is insured under the trail organisation’s liability and not the landowners. This appears to have been his main objection to building trails there and I can understand why if he is unable to apply any risk assessments or input into their construction to the trails, yet is felt to be liable under law for any injuries resulting from their use. This could be a great model for future trail-building as it protects landowners and allows for proper organised community trail-building.

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    Blackmount is spot on.

    Diane
    Free Member

    I think it just highlights the need for partnerships going forward like TWTA dialogue with relevant parties.

    We have had a lot of activity lately with minimal ‘backlash’ and the 2 official bodies represented were very fair I thought so let’s embrace the move forward .

    The recent combined efforts on Gold Run Lower at Innerleithen (Officially sanctioned) show just what can be achieved

    https://www.facebook.com/markscottmtb/videos/1686986368051281/

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    You should check out the Scottish Outdoor Access Code for the full story but in very basic terms you can ride wherever you like in Scotland

    Almost but the key term is responsible access and as stated above a lot of sensible exceptions. Including leaving when the land manager requests.

    There is guidance in the code to suggest that you might want to follow the advice of any land manager but that’s a lot different to saying that you must leave if asked.  The LR(S)A does not give land managers this right.

    bigjim
    Full Member

    Really? Hydro and Windfarms maybe just. But otherwise I’d say not…

    The environmental impact of the thousands of miles of LRT’s bashed across our moors and Glens – without planning permission – in the name of “farming” and “estate management” utterly eclipse any cheeky trailbuilding within FC land and elsewhere. And the FC’s management of many of our forests seemingly cannot be questioned.

    Not defending what these guys were doing across a sensitive historic site.

    The planning system defines what needs permission and when, and in relation to wind farms/hydro there’s clear guidelines defining whether an EIA is needed.

    The issue that people are missing is that of land ownership – and land owner can do things to their own land within the rules of the planning system. However I can’t just rock up into someone’s land or garden and start building trails though. I can’t just build a trail in a forest on land that isn’t mine because a landowner somewhere else many miles away has built a shooting track on their own land, that’s a null argument.

    It also affects things like path maintenance, many people on here have been involved in repairing trails in the Pentland Hills, but one landowner in particular doesn’t want trails improved and we were unable to do any work on that trail.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    And an often missed part of the SOAC (Scottish Outdoor Access Code), is universal access does not apply to custom built trails. If somebody was to build a new designated footpath, you’re not legally allowed to ride a bike (or a horse) on that foot path, just the same as walkers wouldn’t be able to walk on a custom built mountainbike trail.

    I’d doubt it is that easy, I know you can get exemptions, but you can’t just build a trail, say it’s a dedicated track and off you go, you can bar everyone else. Surely you need to apply for exemption? I doubt walkers are actually barred from the likes of glentress?

    Spin
    Free Member

    I was wondering about that too seosamh

    kcal
    Full Member

    which one bigjim?    I was taken aback by how much some trails have changed (some better, some in dire straits) when I returned after several years hiatus last month..

    trailwagger
    Free Member

    I started a thread last week touching on this, and it was 50/50 between those saying you shouldn’t do it, and those saying do what you want its not harming anyone.

    https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/mtb-hooligan-culture/

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    I started a thread last week touching on this, and it was 50/50 between those saying you shouldn’t do it, and those saying do what you want its not harming anyone.

    Dare I say “it depends”? As nobberinthefridge says, if it’s a sterile spruce forest with no other recreational use then there can be little harm in carrying out a little trail building/routing. When the forest is harvested the whole area gets mullered anyway. If it’s already a busy area with walkers, kids, dogs etc then building high-speed trail features and jumps is simply stupid. There’s a whole world of gray between those extremes that make blanket statements useless.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    “I doubt walkers are actually barred from the likes of glentress?”

    They aren’t outright barred- I think the FC could make a good case for it but they’ve chosen not to. In most cases, walking on GT trails couldn’t be considered responsible though, and dodging bikes wouldn’t be much fun- even walking onsite for trailbuilding can be a pain with traffic.

    It’s also, let’s be honest, mostly a pretty ugly forest- lots of shitey haunted sitka desert. The oakwood and bits of the lower slopes are pretty nice though.

    bigjim
    Full Member

    which one bigjim?    I was taken aback by how much some trails have changed (some better, some in dire straits) when I returned after several years hiatus last month..

    pentlands trail? Black hill – it’s historically been managed as a grouse moor and I don’t think they wanted to encourage public onto the land, so requests to repair the trail to the north of the hill were declined. In the wake of the golden eagle being shot nearby they’re now citing public traffic as the cause of it no longer being a viable grouse moor.

    By the way the Pentand Hills regional park access forum probably still needs a mountain biker representative. I did it a few years ago and struggled to find anyone else keen on here or the pentland hills users facebook page when I could no longer attend. Probably needs someone more diplomatic and level headed than the average stwer though! (not you, in general)

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 75 total)

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