If Bashar turned a bit Hitler?

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  • If Bashar turned a bit Hitler?
  • bencooper
    Member

    what would it take to make it ok for outside intervention.

    The possibility that intervention would be a. possible, and b. work.

    This is one of those horrible situations where there’s no right answer, no good plan of action, no right thing to do.

    grum
    Member

    When you say ‘turning a bit Hitler’ what do you mean? You do know we didn’t fight Hitler to stop the holocaust don’t you?

    This is one of those horrible situations where there’s no right answer, no good plan of action, no right thing to do.

    +1

    Premier Icon ton
    Subscriber

    grum, as in a bit more extreme.

    nick1962
    Member

    what would it take to make it ok for outside intervention

    Taking out nasty, mass murdering thugs and leaving ordinary people to get on with their lives is a winner in my book.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    ‘turning a bit Hitler’


    Movember?

    If we could get through to seeing the future, we could see who is doing what to who. We could then decide what to do and make sure we did the right thing. Shame it doesn’t work like that.

    grum
    Member

    Taking out nasty, mass murdering thugs

    And leaving what behind?

    Premier Icon ton
    Subscriber

    and if we do nothing?

    grum
    Member

    What makes you think we will make things any better? We don’t exactly have a great track record in the Middle East.

    What gives us the authority to attack countries without UN consent?

    bencooper
    Member

    Want to do something?

    Donate: http://dec.org.uk/node/3181

    nick1962
    Member

    And leaving what behind?

    Good question which is why the leadership in both the West and the East have often actively supported such mass murderers because “at least they know who they are dealing with” and “he keeps things under control”.
    The will of the people wherever it may lead is a much trickier thing to contemplate and negotiate with.

    Premier Icon ton
    Subscriber

    grum, I did not ask about that, all I wanted to know was how long before people who were against would change their minds.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Looking back over history as to how well these things seem to go…
    Iraq
    Afghanistan
    Vietnam
    Northern Ireland
    Somalia

    We had some success in the former Yugoslavia, the Falklands and liberating Kuwait.

    It’s not the best track record to use to promote further military action, yes something needs doing but either way it’s not going to play well with anyone, we still don’t know what is going on – not everything is black and white.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Folk might change their mind if they knew that the outcome would be any better. History leads us to believe otherwise.

    grum
    Member

    grum, I did not ask about that, all I wanted to know was how long before people who were against would change their minds.

    It’s not that simple though. There are no easy answers or black and white ‘lines’.

    We carried on supporting Saddam when he gassed the Kurds BTW.

    Premier Icon somafunk
    Subscriber

    Being devils advocate here and trying to see who benefits from an airstrike/regime change/possible ground war in Syria leaves one neighbouring country out in front, I don’t buy it that Assad/syrian army sanctioned or used chemical weapons when the previous week Obama laid out a clear intention that if such weapons were used then the US would intervene, not to mention use them when UN inspectors were on the ground?, he may be crazy but that is hanging upside down bat-shit crazy. – Say what you like about Assad, and i’m sure he does deserve his reputation as there is no doubt he is as despicable and ruthless as he’s made out to be but i do not think he is suicidal, nor do i imagine he wishes his government to fall due to US led airstrikes which is the only possible outcome he could expect if he used such chemical weapons against his own people.

    Is it really above suspicion that a neighbouring country could have committed such an atrocious act to finger the Assad regime and engender it’s removal?, if syria does fall then Iran may be next and then?…….

    Someone is stirring the shit in the middle east.

    IMHO of course.

    nick1962
    Member

    We carried on supporting Saddam when he gassed the Kurds BTW.

    Precisely my point.
    Hitler
    Stalin
    Pol Pot
    Saddam Hussein
    Gaddafi
    et al.
    Ultimately millions of ordinary people lost their lives when a precise strike would have saved a lot of suffering.

    grum
    Member

    Ultimately millions of ordinary people lost their lives when a precise strike would have saved a lot of suffering.

    Ummm…. Not sure if you’ve noticed but Iraq isn’t exactly a picnic since we got rid of Saddam.

    At least 75 people were killed and more than 200 others wounded Wednesday in a wave of bombings and shootings across the country.

    Analysts say the country appears to be sliding back toward civil war, as Sunni militants linked to al-Qaida mount increasingly deadly attacks on Shi’ite targets on a near daily basis.

    The United Nations says nearly 4,000 people have died this year, most of them since April, when forces of the Shi’ite-led government cracked down on a Sunni protest encampment north of Baghdad.

    http://m.voanews.com/a/1739921.html

    nick1962
    Member

    Ummm…. Not sure if you’ve noticed but Iraq isn’t exactly a picnic since we got rid of Saddam.

    Yes because he was allowed to be in power for so long. All coherent opposition had been eradicated.
    EDIT
    And we didn’t just kill Saddam did we?

    Premier Icon ton
    Subscriber

    just wondering if all the anti’s would turn pro.

    what would it take to make it ok for outside intervention.

    dannyh
    Member

    Interesting that Hitler and the Nazis have been mentioned in connection with Syria – given that country’s record of harbouring wanted Nazi war criminals……………

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    ton why arent you clamouring to invade north korea?
    those crazy kims have concentration camps
    and have already killed millions of their own people

    Assads small fry compared to some dictators

    Premier Icon mattjg
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    redfordrider
    Member

    Even Hitler didn’t stoop so low as to use chemical weapons on the battlefield. Assad’ s Regime would have been despised and condemned by the Nazis. Imagine that. “In order for evil to flourish, all that is required is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmond Burke

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    redfordrider – Member
    Even Hitler didn’t stoop so low as to use chemical weapons on the battlefield. Assad’

    no he just herded civilians into chambers to use them?!?!!?

    chrismac
    Member

    For me there are 2 main problems with military intevention.

    1. Against who? No one had produced any substative evidence as to who was responsible for the attack. THere seem to be as many sources pointing the finger at both sides.

    2. How will blowing up more civilians and some parts of Syria as part of an intevention help? You can be certain that it wont really affect whoever is behind the attack. Is a court not the appropriate place to deal with people who break the law?

    redfordrider
    Member

    Kimbers. Even the Nazis had their limits, as despicable and immoral as they were. Assad appears to have none.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    redford what planet are you on?
    when assad has rounded up 6 million men women and children, herded them into concentration camps executed them invaded half of europe and plunged the world into a war that killed 2.5% of its population then yeah he can go on the list with hitler, stalin and pol pot

    until then hes just another nasty tin pot dictator doing his best to stay in power while saudi backed islamists try and overthrow

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    say what you like about the nazi’s atleast they didnt….

    is it me or is it getting a bit surreal around here?

    Premier Icon zilog6128
    Subscriber

    Even the Nazis had their limits

    Not all German soldiers were Nazis, despite wearing the uniform. Plenty were decent people. SS soldiers on the other hand certainly had no limits.

    wrecker
    Member

    all I wanted to know was how long before people who were against would change their minds.

    A UN mandate, even then only as part of a multinational UN force.

    wobbliscott
    Member

    The right course of aciton is not always the easiest, that’s where leadership comes in. Just cause its difficult and we can’t always see the end game, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. The world is connected and to say that things that happen out of our boarders has no impact or knock-on effects to us and our way of life is wrong, things have a habbit of coming back round to bite you eventualy. I think in time getting rid of Saddam will be shown as having been the right thing to do – but you can’t re-invent a country overnight, but at least we’ve given the people of Iraq a chance to form a country of their own and some control over their destiny. The trick is to continue the help and assist for as long as is necessary, which is decades, and it is this committment that we’ve not really got our heads around and committed to, or have a model for. We take freedom and democracy for granted – but for some people who have never known it, it is a completely alien concept and doesn’t always come naturally and will take a few generations to take root.

    Assad has shown that he is just as ruthless and capable of ‘evil’ as Hitler and has taken a step even Hitler didn’t dare take in using chemical weapons on his own civilians. What more do you need to justify some form of active and direct invervention? Some seem to think it isn’t enough.

    If Assad does deploy chemical weapons again I hope that Milliband and all the other politicians who voted against last night watch the horrific images on screen will realise that this is the result of their course of action and publically apologise. I hope it doesn’t happen and they’re right. To not even have the threat of retaliation out there undermines our influence and is giving them the green light.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    say what you like about the nazi’s atleast they didnt….

    is it me or is it getting a bit surreal around here?

    Indeed. I expect a ‘what have the Roman’s ever done for us’ comment any time now 🙂

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    oh come on the jews were hitlers own people! they were germans too

    even the americans ‘intelligence’ indicates that assads regime didnt mean to kill those civilians- the intercepted calls are from regime officials asking an artilery unit wtf theyve been gassing people!!

    dont get me wrong assads a scumbag and im sure hes more worried about american retaliation than any innocents killed

    I suspect assad will continue to use whatever he has at his diposal to win the war, if the americans do bomb him and tip the scales in favour of the rebels whos to say he wont become more desperate and launch even more chemical attacks?

    grum
    Member

    Is a court not the appropriate place to deal with people who break the law?

    Exactly. How about the ICC issues a warrant for Assad’s arrest, and we go get him and put him on trial? Except the Americans don’t like the ICC, and prefer summary justice.

    If Assad does deploy chemical weapons again I hope that Milliband and all the other politicians who voted against last night watch the horrific images on screen will realise that this is the result of their course of action and publically apologise. I hope it doesn’t happen and they’re right. To not even have the threat of retaliation out there undermines our influence and is giving them the green light.

    And would Cameron have to watch horrific images of the children who die when we start bombing and then apologise?

    patriotpro
    Member

    Asad’s def got the Hitler tache going on, so maybe just maybe he may turn all Hitler.

    On a serious note, there’s no doubt that using chemical weapons on your own people is wrong, but can anyone tell me why the neighbouring Arab bredren aren’t willing to intervene in the abuse of their fellow brothas and sistahs?

    nick1962
    Member

    but can anyone tell me why the neighbouring Arab bredren aren’t willing to intervene in the abuse of their fellow brothas and sistahs?

    No one intervened when Hitler did the same to his own population
    Or why the Rwandan genocide went on so long
    etc

    We carried on supporting Saddam when he gassed the Kurds BTW

    Here’s a quote from good old Winston Churchill, from 1920, referring to the Kurds:
    “I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas… I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes”

    just wondering if all the anti’s would turn pro

    Perhaps at least some idea of an end game plan, sadly lacking in every other military intervention of the last couple of decades. Given the pretext for this one is chemical weapons, in order to get hold of them (from either the government or the multifarious rebel groups) – we would need boots on the ground. Que long protracted operation, messy ending with no defined outcome and ample room for terrorist linked Islamic militant groups to get a boot in the door.

    patriotpro
    Member

    No one intervened when Hitler did the same to his own population
    Or why the Rwandan genocide went on so long
    etc

    Off on a tangent that, anyone else?

    Are any other countries bothered/worried/arsed about what’s going on over there? I’m not that well up on the news but I don’t seem to hear much about any other countries possible involvement apart from the UK & the US. By that I mean any other country saying stuff like ‘lets send in our military’ & not ‘ooh, that’s awful, i think we’ll stop importing sand from Syria’ etc.

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