If a lollypop man waves you through a red light – are you breaking the law?

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  • If a lollypop man waves you through a red light – are you breaking the law?
  • Premier Icon mugsys_m8
    Subscriber

    To me, it sounds like the op is describing the red light controlling a pedestrian crossing, and only a pedestrian crossing, i.e. not at a road junction, that the lollipop person (pc me!)is ‘overriding’, rather than a red light controlling a traffic junction.

    In this instance if the crossing is controlled by the lollipop, then I thought they fully controlled/ overrode it, and told traffic if they could go through the red light.

    Sounds like I’m wrong though. Learnt something today, meaningless to me though as I live in France.

    makeitorange
    Member

    Why is there a lollipop man if there is already a pedestrian crossing with lights? Surely you only need a lollipop man if there isn’t a crossing?

    toppers3933
    Member

    given that the red light is an indicator of when to stop at the stop line, which does not continue onto the footway then they have no control over footway traffic be that a pedestrian or wheelchair user. they are controlled by the pedestrian crossing lights if present. pushing a bike or pushchair you are still classed as a pedestrian.

    johnellison
    Member

    Eh, really? Interesting if the red light applies to the pavement alongside the road as well, never knew that.

    Archaic, but true. Any form of transport with wheels is deemed in law to be a “carriage”, as are animals used for transport – i.e. horses, but I suppose you could lump elephants and camels into that if you were being really anal.

    If the letter of the law is taken at it’s most pedantic, traffic signals (i.e. lights and/or authorised person giving hand signals) apply to carriages and animals in the roadway or on footways adjoining said roadway.

    Strictly speaking, if you were driving a flock of sheep along a road and you come to a red traffic light or were told to stop by a copper, you have to!

    I don’t know how true it is, but I believe that the only time that you aren’t legally obliged to stop at a red light is if it’s temporary traffic lights or signals at roadworks. And also houses of ill repute, where it is inadvisable to stop at all if there are law enforcement officials in the immediate vicinity.

    pushing a bike or pushchair you are still classed as a pedestrian.

    But a pedestrian in charge of a carriage or conveyance – it is the carriage which must stop, not the pedestrian.

    If you pick the carriage or canveyance up and carry it, it becomes a package and you can then proceed.

    nbt
    Member

    Drac wrote:

    NBT we’re supposed to have light and sirens on at all times now, that’s 24/7.

    I was GMP, and it was 17 years ago now
    dear christ, where does the time go

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Firestarter it’s not a popular decision with staff or certainly not with local guesthouses.

    I don’t know how true it is, but I believe that the only time that you aren’t legally obliged to stop at a red light is if it’s temporary traffic lights or signals at roadworks

    That’s not true.

    Premier Icon firestarter
    Subscriber

    I bet mate

    toppers3933
    Member

    but as the offence is to cross the white line when the red light is showing, and the white line does not continue onto the footway you are not controlled by it. if you are pushing the bike/pushchair in the carriageway then i would agree. please dont take this as me arguing, im really not, you make a genuinely interesting point and i am happy to be told i am wrong.

    toppers3933
    Member

    certainly if the temporary traffic light has the correct temporary traffic regulatory order attached to it then it is a legal requirement to stop at it. and the sign that says where to stop is classed as the temporary stop line.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    but as the offence is to cross the white line when the red light is showing, and the white line does not continue onto the footway you are not controlled by it.

    By that argument, you could fly through almost every stop light with impunity just by using the oncoming lane on the other side of the road.

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    I don’t know how true it is, but I believe that the only time that you aren’t legally obliged to stop at a red light is if it’s temporary traffic lights or signals at roadworks.

    Wrong.
    It’s a very common belief though – I believe that the rules changed sometime in the last 5-6 years but a quick google isn’t throwing up anything definitive.

    joao3v16
    Member

    Why is there a lollipop man if there is already a pedestrian crossing with lights? Surely you only need a lollipop man if there isn’t a crossing?

    Because there are a sufficient number of idiots driving who are too stupid/selfish/ignorant/inconsiderate (or all of the above) to use a pelican crossing properly.

    Drivers are less likely to shoot through a late orange or jump away too early if there’s a human being on the road.

    Probably also stops people trying to cross too early/late.

    johnellison
    Member

    I don’t know how true it is, but I believe that the only time that you aren’t legally obliged to stop at a red light is if it’s temporary traffic lights or signals at roadworks.

    Wrong.
    It’s a very common belief though – I believe that the rules changed sometime in the last 5-6 years but a quick google isn’t throwing up anything definitive.

    Fine, I stand corrected, said the man in the orthpaedic shoes. I wasn’t sure if it was correct or not.

    johnellison
    Member

    but as the offence is to cross the white line when the red light is showing, and the white line does not continue onto the footway you are not controlled by it. if you are pushing the bike/pushchair in the carriageway then i would agree. please dont take this as me arguing, im really not, you make a genuinely interesting point and i am happy to be told i am wrong.

    No it’s fine, I welcome and encourage informed and legitimate debate. I’ll try and find the reference but I’m sure that there is a case somewhere of a cyclist being prosecuted for pushing his machine through a red light on the footway.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Just found this.

    http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/offences/traffic_lights.htm

    Couple of interesting points, I thought. The first relevant to the earlier conversation, the latter I Did Not Know That and is something I see regularly flaunted.

    I had stopped, but I then went through the red light to allow an emergency vehicle pass me, is this a defence?

    In theory, the offence has still been committed but it is most unlikely that a prosecution or endorsement would arise, as there are clear grounds for “special reasons” as to why no punishment should be imposed.

    I drive an articulated vehicle. Quite often, when I approach the lights they are green, but by the time by vehicle is through, they have changed to red. There is nothing I can do because of the length of the vehicle. Why should I be prosecuted?

    If the red light is not showing when the front of the vehicle crosses the line, but is illuminated before the rest of the vehicle has passed, an offence is committed. The rules state that it is your obligation as a driver to ensure that the whole of the vehicle can pass on green. If it cannot, you should not proceed.

    andrewh
    Member

    Why is there a lollipop man if there is already a pedestrian crossing with lights? Surely you only need a lollipop man if there isn’t a crossing?

    I was wondering that. We have some round our way with lights and lollipops. *Heads over to the non-jobs thread*

    Premier Icon simmy
    Subscriber

    They have lollipop people on.Light controlled crossings here as well.

    Back to the OP, its an offence as a lollipop person can’t wave you through a red, only, like stated Police, traffic warden, PCSO, Highways Agency etc.

    But sometimes common sense prevails. If someone was reversing a van out of a street because it is too big to turn round, and the drivers mate asked you to stop I know I would even though legally you don’t have to also I’ve gone through red lights on roadworks when told to by the workmen – guessing the lights were stuck or something.

    Anyone ever been stuck at a set of lights for ages, missed several sequences and its obvious they are broke, how long would you wait till you checked it was clear and went through ?

    I’ve done that on the bike as the sensors don’t always pick the bike up as being there.

    cheers_drive
    Member

    I’ve heard that people have been done for moving forwards into a no stop box to let an emergency vehicle through in that there London.

    project
    Member

    On the wirral, we have lolipop people refusing to work and toys out of prams,because they got baseball caps instead of AUTHORITARIAN peaked hats, their words.

    The local council is stopping paying lolipop people, its now going to be paid for by the schools,

    Sending a traffic enforcement officer out with a book of tickets and a camera, would easily raise enough cash for the lolipop peeps, by issuing tickets to all the parents who cant drive/park/or allow their fat kids to walk more than 15 foot from the school gate.

    Premier Icon andytherocketeer
    Subscriber

    Anyone ever been stuck at a set of lights for ages, missed several sequences and its obvious they are broke, how long would you wait till you checked it was clear and went through ?

    Yep. One failed to red on every junction. Eventually someone just went. What is one supposed to do? wait for the police or traffic warden to turn up and wave people on?
    In Germany and Netherlands when they fail, they fail to off or flashing amber, which makes it a 4-way stop junction, with well defined priority.

    I’ve done that on the bike as the sensors don’t always pick the bike up as being there.

    Never had a traffic light sensor fail to trigger when on a bike, although the Dutch/German ones have an induction loop solely for cyclists.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    If the red light is not showing when the front of the vehicle crosses the line, but is illuminated before the rest of the vehicle has passed, an offence is committed. The rules state that it is your obligation as a driver to ensure that the whole of the vehicle can pass on green. If it cannot, you should not proceed

    That sounds unenforceable to me. How the jeff are you supposed to know how long it’ll be on green for?

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    That sounds unenforceable to me. How the jeff are you supposed to know how long it’ll be on green for?

    Sounds a bit illogical to me too.
    In Spain there’s a law that says if a peloton of cyclists (eg, on a clubrun) starts to cycle through a junction and the light turns red, the rest of the cyclists (ie, the back half of the group) still have right of way. Same as for a long vehicle – hence why I can’t see how you can enforce a law about not going through if the light changes when you’re half way across.

    project
    Member

    If a lollypop man waves you through a red light – are you breaking the law?

    and somebody decides to cross either walking or on a bike or horse and you hit them, i would bet that the lolipop person would deny they waved you through, how do you prove it.

    konabunny
    Member

    I’ve heard that people have been done for moving forwards into a no stop box to let an emergency vehicle through in that there London.

    I can believe that people have been sent tickets following cameras being triggered, and can believed that in principle jumping a red light is illegal even if you has an ambulance behind you, but I’m a bit more sceptical that anyone has actually been fined or done for it in court when they’ve pointed out the ambulance fact.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I’m a bit more sceptical that anyone has actually been fined or done for it in court when they’ve pointed out the ambulance fact.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204944/Driver-gets-60-fine-moving-yard-red-light-let-police-van-999-pass.html

Viewing 25 posts - 41 through 65 (of 65 total)

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