I was riding my surly Ogre the other day and returning from a car boot sale with perhaps 15kg on the rear rack ( 6 kg on top ) + panniers, I was surprised at how much it flexed about and spoilt the handling somewhat. If I shook the frame the rear would wobble side to side a fair bit. It got me thinking …is it possible to have a really stiff frame to stop this and allow heavier loads but still remain comfortable off road touring which is what i like to do.
I Have an older pugsley I’m just completing a full refurb on and perhaps that will do it but otherwise anyone have suggestions ? Comfort is very important and I prefer a rigid fork with big tyres, but would a super stiff frame that resists heavy loaded wobble still be able to remain pleasant to ride? ( loaded and unloaded) Your thoughts/ suggestions would be appreciated
thanks in advance
Bill

What bars do you prefer? A Longitude works with alt bars. I regularly carry the groceries just on the rear rack. Never weighed it loaded but imagine 2-3 bags of heavy shopping with cans, fruit, milk etc.

Carrying those massive panniers feels surprisingly trivial on the road/gravel but I haven’t tried it in the rough yet. Have no reason to suspect it wouldn’t perform very well fully-loaded offroad and that’s what I initially chose it for. Looking forward to getting the chance – meanwhile it lugs loads as car-replacement. This is with just half a load in one massive pannier. It was very heavy yet coped amazingly well even with the asymmetric load. (Pictured as 29er)

Help!- Off-road touring bike with rack mounts.

What about getting an custom integrated rack put on the ogre like Ian Hibell.

Requires a team builder to mod clearly.

https://images.app.goo.gl/P6NTpLm33X3htFEf9

Is what you’re looking for a trailer?

The 18 Best Bike Trailers for Bicycle Touring

+1 for trailer thoughts.

Burly COHO XC also is on my wishlist as additional option, for different loads/commutes/camping

Can’t really comment on the Surly Ogre, but I have a LHT and that seems fine fully loaded, it actually feels better the more weight you have on it.

Was it the frame that was flexing or the rack? Some racks flex more than others.

Having a stiffer frame will be fine when loaded, but probably will be very harsh when unloaded.

Daft suggestion, the rear tyre wasn’t too soft? As too low a pressure can make the extra weight move around a bit more, due to the flex in the tyre sidewall.

I would start by getting a front rack like the Specialised Pizza rack and balancing the load across the bike. Most disc forks are stiff enough to handle front loads pretty well and help stop the “waggy tail” feeling than comes from too much weight on the back. Don’t forget most of your body weight is over the back wheel too, spreading it out means less chance of broken spokes as well.

The challenge is that loaded riding is very different from unloaded riding. A bike suited for one won’t ride as well in the other situation

If I carry loads on my arkose (including a child) it’s like trying to pedal jelly. Put the same load and more on my big dummy and it’s no problem. But they’re completely different bikes

would a super stiff frame that resists heavy loaded wobble still be able to remain pleasant to ride?

Well carbon road bike brands would have us believe that ultimate stiffness is the aim and yet they claim comfort too, so why not. Frames can be stiff in one plane and flexible in others to a point. Or, a frame can be very stiff to handle a load while a good bar and seatpost plus big tyres saves you from the jarring. I’d say the frame does little for comfort in most riding situations compared to bars, post, saddle, tyres, wheel/rims even.

I have a steel diamond Jones for loaded off-road touring or racing, it’s stiffer than is really needed for normal XC as it’s designed to be ridden harder than most rigid bikes but all that makes it really capable when loaded up. I’ve ridden it in all kinds of rocky, tricky or faster technical terrain loaded up (6-10kgs) and it’s pretty amazing what it can do and how well it carries the load. It’s also comfy, I’ve done a lot of long days back to back on it. It’s not comfortable in the same way an older lugged steel road bike is but it’s still a comfy place to be.

Also check where you’re putting the weight – if it’s all on the back then you will have the inertia of all that weight against the steering input at the front, the frame will tend to flex more than if the weight was spread more evenly or more on the front.

Trailer is the key

some good advice here ..many thanks ..I was running a relatively low rear tyre pressure and the rack is nothing special so I may try there to begin with . I actually have a thorn expedition rack in the garage so perhaps that will help . Regarding spreading the load I would need to change the fork really as I have a twangy exotic carbon up front . The original fork was harsh but as I run 29 plus up front now it might be an idea. Although I like the look of those pizza racks I dislike the feeling of any weight up front that’s relatively high. I guess ideally you’d put sleeping bag etc on the platform . I don’t know how people ride with big handlebar rolls ..it’s certainly doable but the feeling ….horrid imho.

Regarding spreading the load I would need to change the fork really as I have a twangy exotic carbon up front . The original fork was harsh but as I run 29 plus up front now it might be an idea.

A fork that’s harsh aka stiff is what you want with disc brakes and a heavy load. TBH I couldn’t relax if I was riding a twangy carbon fork on a bike like that. A big tyre, a bar with some give and good grips and you won’t care about the stiff fork – it’ll probably be beneficial to the overall ride.

I don’t know how people ride with big handlebar rolls ..

Depends on the weight and how far out from the steering axis it is – 1-2kg on a bar attached to a short stem is OK. But yes, the heavier the load the better it is lower down. I’ve not used panniers as I’ve not packed that much on a trip but if I wanted to carry 15kg it’d be partly in a front pannier kind of position, fork soft packs of some sort.

Personally I cannot stand riding with anything on the bars or fork legs Destroys the handling completely IMO / IME

If you want to carry a big load a trailer is the only answer again IMO / IME. It has the least effect on the handling ( apart from frame bags / bikepacking setup but that is not for heavy loads

Font panniers work really well IME (limited experience) and I had them on a platform rack. The key was making sure the weight ran as close to axis as possible. For me this meant setting the bag quite far back.

This was heavily loaded. Camping gear (comfortable) plus food, plus cooking gear, plus my clothes plus maps etc. Bike road well on easy double track Welsh bridleways (until I was pushing uphill!).

If you want to carry a big load a trailer is the only answer again

It’s not the only answer, it the answer that work best for you.

Was it the frame that was flexing or the rack? Some racks flex more than others.

I’ve used different racks over the years but I think my Blackburn from 2008 has been the best by far. That was on a surly long haul trucker.

Or go fully integrated

Tout Terrain Silkroad II integrated rack touring bike gets a modern expedition overhaul

I had 3kg on the bars at the weekend and that was definitely too much. Previously I’ve had 1-1.5kg and handling has been fine. I’ve not tried anything fitted to the forks such as Anything Cages but even those recommend keeping the weight down.

Unless you really have no option, taking stuff for a child or on a long trip with no possibility of resupply then 15kg is way too much. Comfortably summer touring (tent, inflatable mat, etc.) is 5kg before food, obviously food depends on how long you’ll be away from resupply for. In a similar thread, last year I think, @tjagain asked how I got such a low weight so I posted the entire kit list with weights.

The reason I had 3kg up front was that I was taking both hammock and ground sleeping systems just in case I couldn’t find anywhere to hang and it was all in the bar roll. As it happened I didn’t need the mat, bivy bag and pole so with a redistribution I’d have been well under 2kg.

If you really want a something for touring with heavy load carrying ability what about a Salsa Blackborow?

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/blackborow/2020_blackborow_gx_eagle

Bit overkill, but there wouldn’t be much you couldn’t carry on that!

I think your definition of “comfy” is somewhat different to mine Whitestone! 🙂

Balancing the weight between front and rear helps,
Keeping the weight close in towards the steering axis helps too. Wide racks are bad, racks which are a long way out front are bad too.
This also applies at the rear, hence why people rave about racks like the tubus ones, which keep the panniers close in towards the wheel.
I use a rack like the pizza rack, it’s really close in against the fork crown, and it carries my sleeping bag, totally unnoticeable from a handling point of view.
I also use 2x water bottle racks on my forks, i can take 1.5kg either side and again, barely noticeable.
That’s close to 4kg total, i can ride it no handed.
If i load everything into the panniers, it doesn’t feel nice at all, pretty wobbly.
Surly karate monkey.
I think the way you load, and what racks you use, and the general setup of your bike probably matters more than what exact bike it is.

Something like a Thorn Nomad might fit the brief. I think they can be configured for different types of riding (eg more off-road than road) and they’re supposed to handle better when loaded. They might be a bit ‘dead’ feeling when unloaded.

Every bike I’ve owned has been a bit flexy when loaded up. I’ve never needed an expedition-style bike, but maybe one day…

I do have one of the Carry Freedom Y (2-wheel) trailers which I used for the odd overnight camp with an old steel racer. It’s pretty good. I made a box to fit on top, and it meant I could load it up with bulky items I’d struggle to fit in a pair of panniers, yet not trouble the road bike.

I think your definition of “comfy” is somewhat different to mine Whitestone! 🙂

Second that.
I think it depends on how much your willing to spend and how much durability you are willing to trade as well.

That sal Lok awesome,not quite big dummy level of size but same long tai concept

Shand Tam

Comfort? I’m not expecting 5 star hotel levels of comfort but I’ll get a good night’s sleep and eat well.

I think it depends on how much your willing to spend and how much durability you are willing to trade as well.

Partly true for the first part, definitely not true for the second.

I.e. You could buy a synthetic sleeping bag like the Mountain Hardware Lamina 30 for £120, weighs 1kg and packs down to 28x15cm. Or you could buy a Cumulus 250 down quilt for £170, weighs 490g and packs down to 20x14cm. Yes, more expensive but it is likely to last decades, I’ve the Cumulus 150 and have used it for over 120 nights and it’s still almost as new.

For the durability, you just have to take a little care, not necessarily kid gloves, just care.

I’ve ridden a couple of Thorn Nomads over the years … didn’t really like the feel when unloaded. Also I prefer 29 plus . Thorn don’t do off roadish in anything except 26″ IIRC.
A trailer might be the answer. TBH I don’t like lightweight camping setups. I’d rather carry more weight and be super comfortable . That shand looks nice but think the front rack is a poor choice ..is it a pizza? I’ll experiment with the original forks i think , spread the weight a bit and change the rack to the thorn exp version.

My Vagabond can carry a serious load without getting noodley. Here she is overloaded with 45kg of luggage. I would not recommend this but I rode for a day through northern Brittany loaded with gear for a working week at a friends place and rode back from Portsmouth to London without mishap!

And here in winter bivvy mode

Yeah, that’s a pizza rack on the Shand – it’s a solid bit of gear, I rode form London to Norway with 2 panniers and a big porteur bag on mine, no problems.

It is a Specialized Pizza Rack and from memory it was just stuck on for a show. The forks have triple eyelets for anything cages as well as standard lowmount fittings so it’ll take pretty much any front rack out there.

Try a Tubus Cargo rack. Never noticed any flex with my Long Haul Tracker. Carried a 30Kg touring load (14Kg water) with no flex that I noticed. Around 16kg of that on the back rack. A 2Kg tent on top, the rest in panniers.

Pi at clandestine.cc has built the sort of load carrying bikes you talk of. Well tested by him & others too….

Specialized Pizza rack is great (apart from some missing bolts…) you can stick light and bulky things (down gear and sleeping mat) and you can then put panniers on the lowers. I actually had full on back rollers on it the other day but front rollers would be perfect

https://tout-terrain.de/en/the-products/x.over/323/outback-xplore-275