Listening again to the implosion of the Labour party this week and all the claims and counter claims about the party being institutionally antisemitic it struck me that I wouldn’t be very good at it – I wouldn’t know where to start.

Firstly, I haven’t got a clue which of my friends, colleagues and acquaintances are of Jewish heritage. Not a clue. You hear comments like ‘that surname is obviously Jewish’ – is it? Did I miss the class at school where they gave out the list of Jewish surnames to remember?

Secondly, why am I, as person of broadly christian heritage (I say that loosely as a 3rd generation atheist), meant to dislike Jewish people? Yes, I know my history well enough to be aware of what the Nazi’s claimed the Jews were responsible for. But what does your modern day anti-semite have beef with them for?

In a country which cares less about religion now and has less attenders at religious services than at any time in it’s history it just seems curious that anyone could GAF enough to be an anti-semite. As an atheist I am somewhat bemused and privately scornful of anyone daft enough (imo) to have religious faith but I don’t treat Judaism any differently to any other fairies at the bottom of the garden mantra. Also not particularly fond of some of Israel’s policies but that is more do with human rights rather than anything religiously orientated about the dominant religion of Israel. I’m pretty sure I can hold those views without being anti-semitic unless you were looking to find me so.

not particularly fond of some of Israel’s policies

Anti-semite!

I realise that I maybe dont follow politics as much as I should but is the Labour party racist? Really, more so than Tories, I dont buy it. That Dudley MP on the tellybox ranting about it sounded like a nutter and didnt seem to come up with any ideas that convinced me, he just seemed to not like Corbyns leftist slant.

Anti-semite!

Yes, the Israeli government has been very successful in conflating those two issues.

I’m totally with you OP. I really couldn’t care less about someone’s faith, colour, creed etc. As long as you aren’t breaking rule one I don’t rightly care and can’t fathom people that hate based on any criteria other than someone being a weapons grade dickhead. Even then I usually feel pity.

Agree on Israel though as it appears they have utterly smashed rule number one.

The Jews killed little baby Jesus. That’s pretty much all I was taught about the religion part in school. Have a couple jewish mates in real life, wouldn’t have been able to tell you that before they disclosed it. Nothing about them be it their names, actions, personality or anything else is any different to anyone else, not even their casual rasicm to brown people. Not many about my way, tiny percentage of the population.

Convert, have you considered attributing your failure to be antisemitic to “the Jews”?

Such a wide range of things are categorised as antisemitic.

It can go from sheer hatred of Jewish people… Through to disagreeing with the policies of the Israeli government and their approach to the westbank, Palestine etc.

Somehow, the struggles of a people, racist behaviour and terribly unjust criticism of them has been confused with enforcing support for a highly radical and military active government.

Convert, have you considered attributing your failure to be antisemitic to “the Jews”?

🤣

I’ve had some bad experiences with a few young Israelis with in the Sinai but the rest of my life I have never had any problems with Jewish folk. Known a lot over the years and enjoyed the laughs and the beers, same as with my other mates.

Some people are unable to differentiate between a religion, it’s individual adherents, a country and it’s current government.

A basic lack of intelligence and education which leads to the shitstorm the Labour party finds itself in.

Applies to all forms of prejudice, obviously.

But what does your modern day anti-semite have beef with them for?

A question I have asked myself and I don’t know. We would need to see all the “anti-semitic” stuff that is behind the claims to see what the problem is. Israel gets mentioned quite a bit by those who say there is a problem so they may be confusing it as said above.

not particularly fond of some of Israel’s policies

Anti-semite

Yep, that’s enough it seems

A simple test would be to swap the word Islam or muslem for Jew in any statement right wing politicans make. Those things are obviously safe to say

Right wing politicians are allowed to be racist though so not a good test. Left wing politicians are not allowed to be racist.

Sadly in Corbyn’s case, he has been lumped into the “anti-semite for being critical of Israeli government policies on Palestine”. Many Jewish folk are themselves branded “self-hating Jews” for being critical of Israel.

Unfortunately some of the more extreme left that have been attracted to the Labour Party post-Corbynism (which only represent a tiny minority of new members) subscribe to anti-Israeli beliefs as well as Jewish world conspiracy theories (Rothschild banker conspiracies etc) and the right wing have picked up on this and are lumping Corbyn in with it all.

The only thing Corbyn is guilty of is being an ineffectual leader, which to be fair to him is partly down to the fact that the left has always fought harder between itself that against the right (People’s Front of Judea / Judean People’s Front to quote a suitable Monty Python movie) !

Had this discussion at work with a few people as I’m struggling to see Corbyn as being an anti-semetic.

To my mind being critical the actions of the Israeli government is not the same as hating the Jewish people. Who made a whole government and its actions unquestionable?

Me and my colleagues must all be anti-semetic in that case I guess?

devash

Member

Many Jewish folk are themselves branded “self-hating Jews” for being critical of Israel.

When Corbyn went to a passover service, he was condemned for doing it with the wrong sort of jews. Those jews, it turned out, were all antisemites. Which coming from the group that claims to represent all british jews, was a bit rude I thought

Anti-Semitism isn’t really about Judaism.

If being anti the Israeli govt is anti-semitism, is distaste for the Nazis racism against Germans?

The fact that one of TIG is chair of “friends of Israel” told me me all I needed to know.

Corbyn likely doesn’t believe that Israel should even exist, that is why people suspect he is an anti-Semite.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/corbyn-reportedly-sought-to-okay-describing-israels-formation-as-racist/

If being anti the Israeli govt is anti-semitism, is distaste for the Nazis racism against Germans?

I’d say that the actions of Israel are pretty incomparable to the Nazis and that your statement borders on being anti-semitic.

Plenty of countries have caused untold outrages, the UK has helped to kill and displace millions in the middle East -causing carnage on a far grander scale than Israel. Yet Jews and Israelis are the only ones who get compared with Nazis?

Are they not allowed to commit the same atrocities as the UK?

Are they not allowed to commit the same atrocities as the UK?

WTF? No.

So are you going to compare the UK government and therefore the population that voted for them, with the Nazis?

I think Corbyn is anti-Zionist rather than anti-Semitic. As a previous poster mentioned the Israeli government has done an excellent job over the years in conflating the two words which have entirely separate meanings. I think its perfectly possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic.

A state that has different laws for different sections of the population is another example of apartheid. Israel managed to kill with impunity three times as many Gazans last year than the South Africans managed at Sharpeville. Ofcourse it’s a racist state and even the chief rabbi referred to African migrants as ‘monkeys’. Seems pretty powerful evidence to me.
Being anti-apartheid or anti-zionist doesn’t mean you are anti-white or indeed anti-jewish.

likely doesn’t believe

…blimey that phrase could be used to ‘prove’ anything.

So are you going to compare the UK government and therefore the population that voted for them, with the Nazis?

I’m not calling anyone nazis, but to justify committing atrocities because some other country has also committed atrocities is beyond stupid. Atrocities are atrocious no matter who carries them out. The clue is in the name.

FYI – there has been a debate going on the last few weeks about Winston Churchill and the atrocities committed under his leadership. Some comparisons were made with the nazis.

raybanwomble

Member

Corbyn likely doesn’t believe that Israel should even exist, that is why people suspect he is an anti-Semite.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/corbyn-reportedly-sought-to-okay-describing-israels-formation-as-racist/

You’re conflating 2 different things there. The creation and existence of Israel is absolutely, 100%, racist. There’s just no other way to create and maintain a state for an ethnoreligious group. Ideal example- if I convert to judaism, as a white anglosaxon I can’t take advantage of the Law of Return (though I could totally have been put in a gas chamber). But if my mum was ethnically jewish, I could be oleh.

But it doesn’t follow that this means Israel shouldn’t exist. I accept that its basic concepts are racist, but I believe it’s still essential to have it. (I also don’t think that this carte blanche; there’s things the israeli state does that I believe are racist and unacceptable, and which aren’t justified by the special case of preserving a jewish state)

Instead of getting upset over the word racist, you just have to get past blacks and whites and see that sometimes it’s necessary to do something that you don’t like the sound of, because the result is so important. Violence is wrong except sometimes it isn’t, my belief that violence is wrong did not stop me kicking a neonazi in the teeth. The world isn’t so simple. Racism is a necessary evil when you need to create something along racial/ethnoreligious lines, and for example stop 100 million muslim arabs claiming to be oleh and ending the jewish state overnight.

But you can’t get around it by just insisting nobody mentions it or claiming that it’s antisemitic. You have to be honest about it. And pretending that people who accept that it’s racist must think it shouldn’t exist is silly.

But most people – and I include Corbyn in this, don’t have that kind of nuanced understanding of the topic Northwind.

95 times out of 100, the people who call the creation of Israel racist – are also the ones that call for its destruction.

’m not calling anyone nazis, but to justify committing atrocities because some other country has also committed atrocities is beyond stupid. Atrocities are atrocious no matter who carries them out. The clue is in the name.

It’s only ever Israel that is compared to the Nazis – with the exception of Trump. Historically, the first people to get tarred with the Nazi brush are the Israelis.

anti-zionism

Many would argue that anti-zionism is anti-semetic because Europe and the Middle East have historically proven themselves to be completely incapable of leaving Jews alone without making them second class citizens, initiating pogroms or gassing millions of them. Jews are still getting attacked in Europe and fascists are getting re-elected again. Yet people wonder why the Israelis wanted their own state.

What makes you say that? Corbyn is vehemently anti racist but doesn’t call for the destruction of Israel, seems to demonstrate that he does understand and practice that nuance.

And in fact I think most people do. They probably won’t take the time to sit down and write a thousand words about it on a bike forum but that doesn’t mean you don’t have it in your head, innately or consciously. Lots of people- most?- make declarations in black and white but literally nobody lives that way. British People First! What about Shamima Begum? Well not her obviously.

Quick question btw- do you think I am correct in what I posted? Or at least, if you disagree, do you accept that it’s not antisemitic to make the argument? Leading question but humour me?

It’s midnight, I’m unsure whether I think you’re right yet. But it was a decent post.

Ok. Reason I ask is that it was antisemitic, under the IHRA Working Definition.

I’d be interested if you could elaborate on that Northwind, if you have time that is, as I’m a bit zombied out at the minute.

raybanwomble

I’d say that the actions of Israel are pretty incomparable to the Nazis and that your statement borders on being anti-semitic.

If thinking the actions of a state that is composed of modern invaders that has dispossessed the original inhabitants and continues to oppress them is reprehensible makes me anti-semitic, I’ll proudly wear that label.

I’ll stand on the side of the Palestinians who are also semitic.

raybanwomble

Member

I’d be interested if you could elaborate on that Northwind, if you have time that is, as I’m a bit zombied out at the minute.

Yeah no worries. The IHRA Working Definition, which has gone pretty mainstream now, has a whole bunch of examples built in and my post definitely matches one and therefore is officially antisemitic.

“Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”

I ignore that one, because it’s just a total nonsequitor- claiming that the state of israel is a racist endeavour as I do, doesn’t deny or even comment on the right to self determination. But it’s in the definition so if you sign up to it, you can’t dispute even the shitty bits.

I’m “antisemitic” about this one as well:

“Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.”

I’m absolutely sure there are British jews who’re more loyal to Israel, or what they see as the interests of worldwide jewry, than they are to their own nation. There’s nothing wrong with it! I’m an actual seditionist, actively disloyal to my nation, so I’d never “accuse” anyone of it, because it’d be like accusing someone of liking birdsong… but if you did, boom- you’re an antisemite, even if you think what they’re doing is totally brilliant. It’s horseshit.

Nuance, nuance. But kind of like what you said up the page, I’d bet money that most people that think Labour and others should sign up to it, have never read it let alone thought much about it. (and how many people who slated Corbyn for it, realised that the Tories hadn’t signed up to it either?)

Incidentally, the core definition seems pretty good to me, but I think it’s stretched to breaking by its examples, and it seems you can’t accept one without the other- that’s what Labour got torn apart for.

If thinking the actions of a state that is composed of modern invaders that has dispossessed the original inhabitants

See also;

The United States, Australia, Tibet, Turkey etc etc.

But you’d never rant about those countries on a forum, would you? The amount of times I’ve heard that being said by Yanks and Aussies with a straight face is mind boggling.

And Israel isn’t composed of just modern invaders, the people who kicked it off in the first place were the local Jews and Muslims.

raybanwomble

See also;

The United States, Australia, Tibet, Turkey etc etc.

But you’d never rant about those countries on a forum, would you?

I think a lot of people do? Tibet is a perennial leftie cause celebre, and who doesn’t like having a go at mad US hypernationalists who don’t really understand that they’re pretty much all recent immigrants.

And for sure a lot of people have ranted about modern invaders from Turkey…

Ask the Greeks and the Kurds if that was sarcasm Northwind.

Don’t need to, my colleague was born in Varosha… But most of these things aren’t really in the public eye- we’re only talking about antisemitism and Israel here because of recent british politics after all.