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IAM et al and bike lanes
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cynic-alFree Member
What’s the IAM etc stance on bike lanes?
From what I can see they all encourage cyclists to pedal < 2 feet from the cub and for drivers to give them < 2 feet when overtaking.
The HC says “Keep within the lane when practicable.” (R63)
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070308
– no specific guidance on them from what I can see (for drivers overtaking).
So the driver is expected to give them “the same room as a car” which makes their existence meaningless and presumably dangerous? (to the IAM et al)
druidhFree Membercynic-al – Member
which makes their existence meaninglessThat’s been my opinion for some time.
Rubber_BuccaneerFull Member“the same room as a car”
How much room do you give a car that is in another lane? I give them less than 2′ even when they are travelling at some speed in the opposite direction.
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...Rubber_BuccaneerFull MemberMaybe I don’t understand the question, I was suggesting the advice on how much space to leave goes out of the window the moment you paint a line on the road and call it another lane.
I have to admit I didn’t read the rules you mentioned.
Rubber_BuccaneerFull Memberand for the record I am not a member of the IAM but will speak for them as IAM always right 🙂
cynic-alFree MemberGenuine question druidh, it just seemed to me that the IAM “experts” position would not support bike-lanes but Councils up and down teh country get money to paint them (I think).
RB – my point is on that pic above, the cyclist would not even be in his “lane” in that position – so I agree that the painting of bike lanes goes against the HC overtaking method.
TandemJeremyFree MemberI doubt the IAM has a stance on them being the institute of advnce motoring
HC states 60 cm from the kerb at least, cyclecraft an arms length. the IAM document refers to primary and secondary positions.
I tend to ignore most painted on cycle lanes as useless and often dangerous they are so ill thought out. disappearing when actually needed and being here when not.
Have a look at a few examples.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/cynic-alFree MemberOf course there are many examples of rubbish design.
My Q was not about those.
TandemJeremyFree Memberthis is one you might know – where the road is wideish you have a narrow cycle lane – as the road narrows it disappears – once i used this lane – a car ran me into the kerb. Now I ride primary position down the hill and thus cannot be squeeze into the kerb on the bend
http://g.co/maps/7vm2qRubber_BuccaneerFull MemberIn that picture the cyclist and car driver are sharing a lane. If there were a cycle lane each would have their own lane to use, it wouldn’t be overtaking.
How much space do the IAM say to give a pedestrian on the pavement?
D0NKFull MemberEdited
apologies Al getting OT, will stand back and see if any IAMers get back to you
TandemJeremyFree MemberCynic -al the specs for those painted on cyclelanes are not adhered to – they should be wide enough to allow you to ride 60 cm from the kerb.
I have never seen one painted onteh road that is not rubbish design and that actually meets the specs and has any function..None in Edinburgh
TandemJeremyFree MemberSo the driver is expected to give them “the same room as a car” which makes their existence meaningless and presumably dangerous? (to the IAM et al)
Yes. when you cannot even cycle in them in the way the HC state is correct
druidhFree MemberLots of design criteria here Al.
http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/ltnotes/ltn208.pdfIncluding a section on overtaking (P17) and width (P37)
7.4 Cycle lane widths
7.4.1 A cycle lane offers cyclists some separation
from motor traffic. Under the National Cycle Training
Standards, cyclists are trained to ride in a safe
position in the carriageway which is usually at least
1 metre from the kerb edge to avoid gulley grates and
debris, and to ensure that they are within the
sightlines of drivers waiting at side roads.
7.4.2 Cycle lanes should be 2 metres wide on
busy roads, or where traffic is travelling in excess of
40 mph. A minimum width of 1.5 metres may be
generally acceptable on roads with a 30 mph limit. For
cycle feeder lanes to advanced stop line
arrangements, a minimum width of 1.2m may be
acceptable. Cycle lanes less than 1.2 metres wide
cannot easily accommodate tricycles or childcarrying
cycle trailers wholly within the lane.
7.4.3 Cyclists can overtake each other within a 2
metre wide lane and easily remain within it when
looking back to check for traffic, or when avoiding
kerbside drainage grates, etc. Drivers do not always
realise that cyclists need to move away from the kerb
to avoid surface hazards and may expect cyclists to
stay in lane regardless of its width. A narrow cycle
lane may therefore give motorists (misplaced)
confidence to provide less clearance while overtaking
than they would in the absence of a cycle lane. At
localised carriageway width restrictions, designers
can continue a fullwidth advisory cycle lane
alongside a substandard allpurpose lane, or the
cycle lane can simply be discontinued. A narrow cycle
lane should not be used here.TandemJeremyFree MemberNice one Druidh
I can hardly think of a single on road painted path that meets those standards in Edinburgh
It also states in that a minimum road width to overtake a bike of 4.3 m – an interesting adjunct to the other days debate about this where I said 16 ft and was soundly rubbished for doing so 4.3 m is around 15 ft is it not?
cynic-alFree MemberWow…not that I agree with all of that but it beggars belief that Councils are not even close to complying with it.
thepodgeFree MemberRound my way the cyclists can’t use the bike lanes as they are full of joggers or full of parked cars left there by joggers.
AnalogueAndyFree MemberTandemJeremy – Member
I doubt the IAM has a stance on them being the institute of advnce motoringYes the IAM does have a stance on them. I’m sure I’ve posted details before. We commissioned John Franklin to produce an IAM cycling book and we offer cycling training and membership..
In answer to the question (How much space does the IAM say you should give a pedestrian on the pavement?).
The answer as always is as much space as necessary.
Eg. A group of school kids on a narrow pavement, chatting away and spilling into the road.. plenty!!
SumFree MemberHC states 60 cm from the kerb at least…
TJ, I’d appreciate a reference to the Highway Code where it says that. I’ve had a look online but couldn’t find it myself. It would come in handy the next time some motorist accuses me of being selfish for not riding right in the gutter.
TandemJeremyFree MemberSum – I cannot see it – I was sure that was mentioned somewhere Sorry.
cynic-alFree MemberAA – a summary of the IAM stance on bike lanes as they actually are (not as they should be) thankyouplease?
druidhFree MemberSum – Page 16 of that dft guide gives some minimum distances.
To a kerb (less than 50mm high) 0.25m
To a kerb (greater than 50mm high) 0.5m
Signposts & lamps – 0.75m
Walls, parapets etc – 1.0mThat’s measured from the wheel/centreline of the bike, not the handlebars 🙂
AnalogueAndyFree Membercynic-al – Member
AA – a summary of the IAM stance on bike lanes as they actually are (not as they should be) thankyouplease?Page 72
“Roads with cycle lanes are multi-lane roads. Most drivers use their lane without too much concern about what’s happening in the next lane – as they can drive straight past adjacent traffic, they do not need to think about overtaking it. As a result, motorists often pass cyclists closer and faster where there is a cycle lane than where there isn’t, especially where lanes are narrow than the recommended width of two meters.
(There follows lots of advice on how and when to use them)
“Try not to let the presence of a cycle lane affect your decision as to where it is safest to ride.”
(More detail about changing lanes and pictures and a diagram to illustrate the point).
So, all these questions cynic-al, you’ve clearly demonstrated you could improve your knowledge and approach and are eagerness to learn. You going to sign up to do the course then? 😉
cynic-alFree MemberHeh…can you imagine the arguments I’d get into with the instructor?
SumFree MemberThanks Druidh. Unfortunately those minium distances appears to be the recommended minimum clearance for cyclists passing fixed objects, such as kerbs and lamposts, rather than guidance for cycling safely on busy roads and ‘permission’ for not having to ride in the gutter the next time some motorist accuses me of being selfish for holding him up.
bm0p700fFree MemberVery few cycles lanes are actually useable if painted on the road as the roads are not simply wide enough in many towns.
Being an IAM driver you overtake giving as much space as necessary. If you cannot give sufficent space then wait. As for cyclists, they should cycle at a distance fromt the edge of the road that allows them to ride safely. I.e in cross winds a greater diastnace to the edge of the road is reasonable. Also concideration needs to given the state of the edge of the road regarding pot holes e.t.c and the width of the lane. It is resoanable to cyle 2-3ft out on narrow to encourage drivers to slow down and pass in the other lane. A driver should leave at least 2 ft between them and the bike as bike do wobble particularly in cross winds and will serve to avoid road debris.
Greater driver training with respect to bikes is needed as part of IAM driver training (where there is none) and on the driving test where there is effectively none.
The IAM is very reasonable and the rules are guidance for best practice and are not fixed. They are more a toolkit to enable you to drive safely, concideratley and with pace.
TandemJeremyFree Memberbm0p700f
2 ft clearance is too close 1.5 m is the usual recommended distance and and 2 ft from the kerb is too tight as well IMO – 3 is better as a minimum (secondary position). and on narrow roads to prevent passing the bike should be at least in the middle of the lane. (primary position)http://www.iam.org.uk/news/latest-news/491-cyclists-take-prime-position-says-iam-book
A link to cyclecraft
Interestingly I am sure training and awareness can be altered. lothian buses I find now very aware of bikes and cooperative with them A big change over the years.
Partly an effect of reaching critical mass but also partly they have made an effort with training.
bm0p700fFree MemberI think the overtaking clearance depends on the situation. 2ft can be sufficent in some (slow moving traffic where you are sure of the cyclist inensions e.t.c) circumstances but not all hense why I wrote at least 2ft clearance when overtaking.
I often ride about 1m (~3ft) from the kerb, single track roads I am in the middle but this agains depends on the road, lane width and traffic conditions. So I agree with you entirely of positioning. It how I ride.
Maybe IAM’s advise has changed since I did my driver training a few years back.
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