You guys ever consider that the world isnt black and white, good and evil? I watched the Benitio del Toro biopics of Che Guevara over the weekend. The guy was a fanatic Stalinist and loved organising a firing squad, but it is impossible not to admire the extraordinary gifts the man had. And he wasnt wrong about everything and neither was Thatcher.

I did try and start the thread about how she might view where her life took her and what she might feel about it (dimentia notwithstanding) – I think, more than Blair etc, that she polarizes opinion – it does become black and white.

Which can be simplified to: “Pursued political idealology beyond pragmatic necessity”. Which is what is so depressing about most / all politicians…

Very possibly but (1) change is often hard without dramatic breakdowns, (2) society and knowledge follows the same pattern of thesis, antithesis, synthesis and repeat. Perhaps politics and economics was merely following this well trodden path at the time?

Binners. Go away and read abit on recent political history.

Are your opinions based on history books then?, or first hand experience?

I can see that going down well at the International Criminal Court
Right oh then !….
In your mind, Maggy should be on trial at the ICC ?…
RRrriiiiieeet.

Don’t be an absolute plank

It all depends which end of her policies you were on. I, like most in the North West of England, got the pointy end. It wasn’t a nice place to be.

I understand if you were stockbroker from Surrey, your opinion might differ somewhat

Use google and type Tony Blair news. How many do you see of him blood all over him, murder of innocents, enrichment? in the top hits?

I just went to Google News, searched on Tony Blair’s name and the front page’s results included:

– an article in the Telegraph about his vast personal fortune, tax minimisation and representation of oligarchs and oppressive governments: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/9136126/Tony-Blair-expands-his-African-empire-into-mineral-rich-Guinea.html

– a test of anti-plagiarism software based on a Queen Mary Uni set essay on the topic of “Did Tony Blair lie in making the case for military action in Iraq?”: http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/03/18/that-third-class-essay-in-full/

– a story about the sale of dodgy Geoffrey Robertson’s villa in which Blair repeatedly stayed, earning him (according to the Telegraph) the nickname “Tuscan Tony”: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertynews/9137006/Tuscan-villa-favoured-by-Tony-Blair-put-up-for-sale.html

TandemJeremy – Member: BTW – this place is full of right wingers not lefties.

Funny that, especially as they post so rarely. Hard at work and no time to post perhaps?

Very possibly but (1) change is often hard without dramatic breakdowns, (2) society and knowledge follows the same pattern of thesis, antithesis, synthesis and repeat. Perhaps politics and economics was merely following this well trodden path at the time?

I’ve no argument against the need for dramatic change, and it was certainly needed in the late 70s. My argument is against the pursuit of a particular goal purely because of political dogma. once the medicine has worked, stop taking it – unless of course you benefit from the sale of the medicine 😉

rkk01 – then we agree!

When she dies it’ll be a sad day. I was neither a fan or foe. I just admired how she rose up in a male-dominated world.

I think if you admire someone and think that it’ll be a sad day when they die it makes you a fan.

….it does become black and white.

But why? All this stuff about having a big party when she dies and calling her pure evil, its just idiotic. A lot of us remember the end of the 1970s, sitting in the dark at home because the power workers were on strike again. I never liked the shrill language she used and the indifference to the effects of de-industrialisation on large swathes of the country……but she wasnt all wrong.

with a massive bleeding hole in it that has never been repaired.

The deliberate policy of mass unemployment caused such damage to society and it has not healed yet. Hopelessness, metal health problems, drug abuse. The rotting sore that is the ghettos for the poor.

TJ.
Thats such a skewed and misleading statement.
Which also happens to nicely outline what I can’t stand about you lefty types.
You expect and rely upon Gov to wipe everyones backside.
In your mind:

Big Gov = Big Brov.
Tea and cakes for everyone.
The Toffs are paying.

Well, you’re wrong and always will be.
Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world rather than rely on Gov to drag him along.

Nobody is saying that Maggy got it 100 pecent correct.

As for legacy ?.

Nulabour’s legacy is a more corrosive stain on our country than anything that had gone before.

Right 🙂 , thats it for me here.

But why?

That’s the question isn’t it.

All those saving up a bottle to celebrate her descent to the underworld* do look faintly ridiculous given her current fraility and the time passed since she was in power…

… but you just cannot dismiss those so strongly held views. Right or wrong, they are engrained. No other British politician in living memory (or historical record??) has been so comprehensively hated by such a proportion of the population

*As a committed atheist I reserve the right to a belief in HELL for this occasion only, and to look ridiculous and vindictive at the same time 😐

. I never liked the shrill language she used and the indifference to the effects of de-industrialisation on large swathes of the country……but she wasnt all wrong.

See that is probably a balanced view I could find myself agreeing with.

[
That on the other hand seems a tad harsh.

But then I guess the juxtaposition of the reasonable and otherwise is part of the appeal of this place

*As a committed atheist I reserve the right to a belief in HELL for this occasion only, and to look ridiculous and vindicyive at the same time

Fill your boots then. Athiest, but not a Humanist clearly.

Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world rather than rely on Gov to drag him along.

Thats quite a socialist idea, not sure that maggie would support such equality of opportunity, and how would it be achieved what kind of policies would be required to create this utopian meritocracy? Identical schooling for all, state takes all wealth on death rather than passing it on to the family?

Nulabour’s legacy is a more corrosive stain on our country than anything that had gone before.

You’re not really looking very far back in British history when you say that, are you?

Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world

I think you’ll find that the inequalities fought against by the left and for by the right put paid to any realistic chance of that for the majority of the population.

Nulabour’s legacy is a more corrosive stain on our country than anything that had gone before.

In what way?

Have a dig at an old woman now, as she waits for god

Bloody long wait, that’ll be…

I think Maggie was great. The best PM since Churchill although I wasn’t alive for him. She had more bollox than most of the male population of Britain nowadays.

Solo – your ignorance of 1980s Britain seems astonishing. Troll?

Thats such a skewed and misleading statement.

As binners says – depends where in the UK you live. Come to the village where I live – the coal mine closed in 1986 – just after the miners strike. The adjacent coke works is still their, rusting in the middle of the village…

It’s not just a rotting sore in society, it’s a rusty sore reminding everyone of Maggie’s legacy on the community

Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world rather than rely on Gov to drag him along.

Again, remarkably mis-informed, or willfully ignorant…
The jobs that disappeared in the 1980s weren’t those of Govt scroungers. They were the jobs of hard working, skilled
workers. The “dole scrounging” lifestlye came after everything else was shut down

Nulabour’s legacy is a more corrosive stain on our country than anything that had gone before

That statement defies credibility…

I dont mean to be flippant (I really dont mean to be flippant) but seriously who the hell would want a job for life as a coal miner? Thats ultimately what the Miners Strike was all about…..was she really wrong? Do we wish we still had a couple of hundred thousand men working in state owned pits producing coal we dont want?

The best PM since Churchill

Love the rose tinted nostalgia. I agree that Churchill’s wartime PR painted him as a great man (and he was likely the best man for the job that needed doing)- a closer look at his actions and published beliefs shows something different.

mcboo –

I dont mean to be flippant (I really dont mean to be flippant) but seriously who the hell would want a job for life as a coal miner?

The answer is in your question if you look past your blinkers. Three letter word rhymes with lob. Whilst I would never argue going down the pit was a desirable way to earn a living, it was a job. Something Thatcher and her(Still seemingly healthy band of sycophants) didnt, couldnt and more likely wouldnt acknowledge. And mining villages and towns up and down Britain(mostly up)will probably never recover as result of this lovely old frail woman, her policies and attitudes towards the miners and folk like you going on about how brave she was…

So I dont meant to flippant{I really dont mean to be flippant} but Ill drink to her passing. Did I mention I wasnt being flippant?

it’s a rusty sore reminding everyone of Maggie’s legacy on the community

So you get laid off. What do you do? Sit in the same place doing nothing then?

mining villages and towns up and down Britain(mostly up)will probably never recover

You could maybe understand it if it was economics that drove her decision on the pits

I dont mean to be flippant (I really dont mean to be flippant) but seriously who the hell would want a job for life as a coal miner? Thats ultimately what the Miners Strike was all about…..was she really wrong?

It was all just a little before my time, so I don’t have strong opinions either way despite the fact that I lived in (and still do) one of the worst affected areas of the country. I just find it hard to agree because everyone tells me I should. And the above has always resonated with me … It’s a very valid comment. Would you want to send your children down the pits? From the people I’ve spoken to there’s not a worse job out there…

I’m sure if I was teleported back to the 80s I would dislike her. But was she wrong? I’m genuinely not sure.

who the hell would want a job for life as a coal miner?

Mining – dangerous, dirty work, with a legacy of industrial accidents and chronic ill-health. But mining was a well paid, skilled job for very many people.

We tend to judge the dangers associated with mining against modern standards. The reality is that very many / most of the heavy industrial jobs were dirty and dangerous. Steel, shipbuilding, rail, all were of a similar ilk – but they represented the H&S culture at the time, not today.

Is it a good thing that few people work in those conditions today – No, it is not. NO people should work under those conditions today. Modern mining and manufacturing jobs should benefit from the changes in attitudes to protecting workers that we now take for granted.

The sad reality is that today, men are again scratching around in holes in the ground in S Wales, digging coal by hand for a few quid a day, outside of the former well regulated nationailsed employer.

So you get laid off. What do you do? Sit in the same place doing nothing then?

Is the correct answer ‘phone a recruitment consultant’?

Her hands are like a muppet’s hands.

Solo – so the deliberate policy of mass unemployment she pursued did not do massive damage to society?

Presume you are referring to the miners and standing up to the unions?

Her hands are like a muppet’s hands.

That’s the foam that Fluck and Law used back in those days 😉

So you get laid off. What do you do? Sit in the same place doing nothing then?

You are Norman Tebbit AICMFP.

Presume you are referring to the miners and standing up to the unions?

Media coverage / popular perception focusses on the miner’s strike, but to do so in isolation is rather blinkered

Whatever happened to allowing a man to go make his own luck in this world rather than rely on Gov to drag him along.

Those educated at eton as the offspringof th erich seem to be ever so much luckier than those borne in poverty…..any idea why that might be.

Wealth confers many advantages and luck [ and even more saddly in many cases actuall skill and ability] make no difference.

So you get laid off. What do you do? Sit in the same place doing nothing then?

Is the correct answer ‘phone a recruitment consultant’?
No you follow tebbits advice and get on your bike…but then you notice a problem with your forks [ or someoen elses in the car park]and it is a bit windy/wet/hard so you go back in the house and dont ride anywhere.

Those educated at eton as the offspringof th erich seem to be ever so much luckier than those borne in poverty…..any idea why that might be.

Right. So everyone you know who is wealthy went to Eton/Marlborough etc etc?

I know a few good blokes who made it (better than me) in life and they most certainly aren’t ex-Public school boys. They were/are just more successful.

Where theres ‘muck theres brass lad.

Sat on a bench in the park watching children play. Do you think “Well, I’m glad I did all that” or do you jsut wonder “What if I’d just spent more time with my family?”

I reckon she’s probably thinking “where am I?” “how did I get here” and “Where’s Dennis”

However, I wonder how many of those telling us about the evils of the woman bothered reading this, that came out last week:

what an evil bitch she was!

Bit different from scrawling in felt tip and misspelling the name of someone’s dead son, innit!

Aye… she was the very picture of compassion, wasn’t she?

Is it a good thing that few people work in those conditions today – No

Very sorry, but what most seem to overlook is that A LOT of people still do.

We’ve only re-located those jobs to cheaper, as dirty, parts of the world.
While we still benefit by receiving the goods from India and China.

This begs two more questions: Firstly will she go to hell?
And once there, will she close down half of the furnaces?