Viewing 40 posts - 201 through 240 (of 250 total)
  • Hydrogen Cars – something doesn’t smell right
  • Drac
    Full Member

    Normal anti0-EV nonsense and normal “I’m right your wrong listen to me you pathetic little car owner.”

    Daffy
    Full Member

    250bn miles driven in the UK per year

    33m vehicles on the road

    0.185kgco2/mile for average ICE

    Delta Co2 for Ev vs ICE production 4t average.

    EV average is 3.5m/kWh

    Assumed grid renewables 75%.

    Assumed Grid c02/kWh  = 0.1kg/kWh

    It costs on average between 3 and 12 tonnes of CO2 to manufacture the battery pack roughly analogous to 1tonne per 10kWh.  That’s the total footprint.  Extraction, refining, assembly, etc. Surprisingly, less than 60% is in the lithium.

    The average car pack at the moment is 80kWh, so 8 tonnes, but you don’t need other things that ICEs need, so the delta is closer to 3-5 tonnes dependent on the ICE car.

    It takes 1.5kWh of power to refine EVERY SINGLE LITRE of Petrol/Diesel.  Currently most of that energy and its associated emissions are as equally elsewhere (another country) as lithium mining/refining is.

    We use 50bn litres of fuel for cars in this country, so need 75TWh of power just to extract, pump, refine and transport fuel we need.  In the global average power mix, that’s 20m metric tonnes of Co2, just to provide fuel to the UK.  We than have another 46m metric tonnes of emissions from direct use of the fuel.

    Over 10 years assuming no change and accounting only for the CO2 emissions associated with the delta from EV to ICE and the emissions in use.  That’d be 660m metric tonnes of CO2 for the ICE.  Assuming the grid stays at 75% renewables in the UK and that everyone buys an EV That’s 33m vehicles at an average of 4tonnes Co2 Delta, so 132m metric tonnes in manufacturing and 71tWh of power demand per year. Which is 7.15m metric tonnes of CO2/y

    Total emissions for a full ICE fleet over 10 years at current levels assuming it all happens in the UK = 660m metric tonnes of Co2

    Total emissions for a full EV fleet including the battery manufacturing delta for the battery = 203m metric tonnes.

    Now someone (TJ) will no doubt whine about infrastructure – A Halide X 14MW Turbine costs between 4k and 7k tonnes of Co2 to manufacture (it’s mostly steel, so can be recycled) including the base, motor and cables to shore.  It provides an absolutely astonishing 74gWh of power per annum.    You’d need 100 turbines to support the whole fleet.  So yup, another 70000 tonnes of Co2 AT THE WORST CASE.  EV now at 204m (using a huge rounding up)

    So even in the most favourable conditions for the ICE and the worst for the EV, the EV fleet + Infrastructure + batteries delivers a 70% reduction in UK car emissions over 10y.   70%!

    In reality if you’re making me equate the cost for infrastructure into the EV Co2 Total, we can assume a full green grid for EVs, so heck, it’s now just the battery delta, so 132m vs 660m, so 80%!

    J-R
    Full Member

    My neighbours Tesla

    Oh really?

    And my neighbour’s new merc wrecked its engine after a year. So Tesla’s still last longer than ICE cars – if you rely on anecdotes as evidence.
    As Daffy posted, independent analysis shows average Tesla batteries still working at 90% at 100,00 miles or more.

    https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration

    I belive that a little bit more than “my neighbour”.

    wbo
    Free Member

    I reckon 40% of my street is Tesla, 40 % other EV and 20% ICE.  It’s the ICE bit that breaks down from what I see.

    And yes, TJ 100% renewable, mostly hydro topped up by wind.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    Re battery degradation. That Harry’s Garage video I mentioned earlier talks about this. See approx 15 mins onwards. Tesla appears to be amongst the best.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    And yes, TJ 100% renewable, mostly hydro topped up by wind.

    Do you have your own hydro station then?

    I would like to to explain this because its completely impossible.  How are you charging when renewables are maxed out a fossil fuels arew  being used in the grid?

    If you are charging off the grid you are using fossil fuels

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Assumed grid renewables 75%.

    Big assumption and yo are forgetting again ( because its convenient to do so ) that this is additional demand.  Much of the time additional demand is 100% fossil as renewables are maxed iout

    When renewables are maxed out then all additional electricity comes from fossil fuels  there is no other source ( nuclear is on all the time)

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    I forget which tangent this had gone down to be talking about EVs and additional demand.

    One of them main points of batteries is that you can charge them whenever it suits, not at time of use. Variable pricing of electricity means that users are incentivised to charge when excess power is available, e.g. overnight (due to low demand and non variable base load generation) or when the wind is blowing strongly. Most EV charging is done in this manner – the more visible fast chargers are generally a low portion of or total charging due to the high cost.

    igm
    Full Member

    There’s a load of stuff on this thread where the author needs to consider the difference between extra energy requirement and extra power requirement.
    EVs are relatively unusual in that they are a large load that takes no grid power when it is being used. And given they are not in use for 90+% of the time, there’s a lot of choice about when to charge them.
    They are one of the things that is going to make intermittent renewable economically and technically viable.
    That and you lot charging Makita impact drivers and e-MTBs.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    How are you charging when renewables are maxed out

    Maybe he doesn’t? As said – you don’t need to charge all the time…

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    How are you charging when renewables are maxed out

    Maybe he doesn’t? As said – you don’t need to charge all the time…

    Agree. In fact he’s highly likely to specifically NOT be charging at those times due to variable pricing encouraging him not to.

    prettygreenparrot
    Full Member

    As the thread has gone on somewhat I suppose someone has pointed out already that:

    hydrogen is a ridiculous idea for fuelling cars

    hydrogen is a ridiculous idea for heating houses

    hydrogen is being promoted as a ‘solution’ by the same fossil fuel companies that brought you the current climate crisis

    Hydrogen is currently harvested from fossil fuels e.g. methane. Like ‘cracking’ any fossil fuel source into usable products this takes energy. ‘Green’ hydrogen is not really a thing.

    It’s time to stop burning stuff.

    https://theecologist.org/2020/dec/18/hydrogen-hoax

    Hydrogen for Home Heating is a Scam.

    singletrackmind
    Full Member

    Plus , how many people are buying big lithium batteries for their PV array. To charge either on octopus flex or from sunshine. They then move this electricity to the car overnight.
    Hence doubling the amount of lithium required.
    These will also have a shelf life before capacity drops away

    tjagain
    Full Member

    |I am not anti EV or Hydrogen  vehicles and do not subscribe to some of the nonsense the antis put out.  they have their place

    I just want folk to realise that EVs and hydrogen vehicles are greenwash, that their usage means increased fossil fuel usage ( compared to reducing the use of private cars) and that while they are zero tailpipe emissions and do reduce greenhouse gases overall they are still hugely wasteful way of moving people about and that this fiddling around the edges makes little practical difference to global warming

    We need lifestyle change not this greenwash that allows folk to pretend that they are doing something big when they are not

    Maybe he doesn’t? As said – you don’t need to charge all the time…

    So he is going for weeks without charging the vehicle?  Because we go weeks at a time when renewables are maxed out.  That pesky high pressure winter event

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Sometimes, TJ, it would be nice if there was just a hint you were reading and understanding other members posts and assimilating them into your knowledge. As it is we get the same message reworded from you every other page which in no way reflects how the EV owning STW members are charging their cars and from which energy suppliers.

    Of the EV owners among my friends and aquaintances all of them have a set of solar panels that more than covers their electiricty use. We have cut off the gas and insulated our homes, two of us are a bit naughty and use wood burners at times we’d be drawing fossil energy from the grid. We’ve stopped or drasticaly reduced flying and are prepared to cross the continent on public transport. Local produce is bought in preference but sometimes we sin and buy things like a guitar made in Mexico or Brompton derailleur made in China.

    The EV is part of a philosophy – making the most of life with a much reduced carbon footprint.

    You have decided not to own a car, fine, your life is organised such that you don’t need one, good. However in other ways your life is carbon intensive but none of us is reproaching you not moving to Africa (on foot) and living in an off-grid community eating only locally produced and unpackage produce and living in a hemp loin skin.

    Your simplistic crap on this thread is irritating many including me. I like your posts and Internet persona a lot but sometimes you’re really irritating.

    🙂

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    We need lifestyle change not this greenwash that allows folk to pretend that they are doing something big when they are not

    Yes TJ we understand that, but that is not what this thread is about.

    In a future scenario we may be able to reduce / abandon cars completely but right here right now it’s not feasible so the next best alternative is to make the cars that are used greener and be part of an overall energy transition.

    Maybe start a separate thread about deleting / reducing car use completely in favour of other forms (which is a perfectly valid discussion).

    Continually derailing this thread which was meant to be about Hydrogen though is just frustrating – your argument is about a different topic.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    The EV is part of a philosophy – making the most of life with a much reduced carbon footprint.

    Yes indeed – it can be and I know you do this

    for many folk tho its a way of pretending they are doing something without those lifestyle changes and unless you are charging off grid completely then in the UK your vehicle charging will be partly fossil fuel

    wbo
    Free Member

    😉 or live somewhere where there are only renewables in the grid

    Seriously , the big problem with hydrogen is the infrastructure, and well, making it in massive quantities as well. So too big, big problems.  So you need a really compelling reason to do this and an acceptance that it’s not going to be cheap.  Hydrogen requires even better quality of infra than natural gas as it CANNOT leak for safety reasons – you can’t even smell if it’s leaking , so it just can’t be allowed to happen unless you want to cover places it’s used with detectors, and it likes to leak.  So add that price into the cost to consumer and how does it look? For me it looks like a dead end, and if any of the miracle batteries ever actually make it then it will be very redundant from a family car perspective (all in my opinion)

    Electricity is a lot, lot easier on both counts.Almost all houses are capable of dealing with any extra load (except Trailrat’s)

    tjagain
    Full Member

    whatgoesup – folk are making claims for their EVs and for any future hydrogen vehicles that simply are not true such as charging off 100% renewables which is simply not possible

    OK – I’ll drop it now

    Drac
    Full Member

    Please do.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    Because we go weeks at a time when renewables are maxed out. That pesky high pressure winter event

    In the middle of the night there is always a generation / use imbalance. Renewables aren’t really the source at these times – it’s the non variable base load generation that is a neccesary fact of our approach to generation.

    You seem to be thinking in an incredibly nieve, simplistic manner and only considering what a complete utopia might look like.

    By these standards you should not posting on this forum, as power is used (to keep your computer / phone running, to power the internet connections, to power the datacentre that’s at the back of this somewhere), eating any food apart from what you’ve grown in your own back garden as that uses energy to grow and transport, wearing any clothes other than those you’ve woven yourself from sheep in that back garden etc etc.

    Please try and work within the constraints of reality – that’s the only way we make progress.
    Also – as Edukator says please try and listen to others arguments not just keep repeating the same idealistic argument.

    Have you read the book I reccomended yet? From your discussions it sounds like you havnt but I honestly think you’ll find it both fascinating and also enlightening. Armed with that knowledge you could really make some interesting, more nuanced and realistic proposals and contribute to these discussions which I would welcome.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    charging off 100% renewables which is simply not possible

    <jumps up and down in frustration>

    PLEASE GO READ THE (free pdf) BOOK IVE RECCOMENDED SEVERAL TIMES – it will be a game changer in understanding of the realities and options.

    Until then it’s like arguing with an idealistic child who refuses to acknowledge facts that they don’t like but still insists on things being the way they want (which are impossible due to the facts that they have refused to acknowledge).

    Arghhhh……….

    Edukator
    Free Member

    One of those friends has an interesting EV. He bought an old Citroën Saxo EV with a dead Battery. He bought some old industrial Lithium battery packs that were being replaced in routine maintenance but still with years of potential life left. He sourced suitable BMSes (battery management systems) and wrote a load of software (his speciality) for the charging system. The result is a 23kWh car with a 150km Summer range that is 99% upcycled. He’s a member of an association which finds sites suitable for solar panel instalations and has installed lots of capacity. I got dragged in recently using my climbing skills and head for heights to prepare a roof for panel installation on an off-grid eco-house with straw-insulated walls.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Whatgoesup – its a philosophical difference – read up on dark V light green to understand my viewpoint.  Its not I am ill informed – its a different philosophical approach and one you might find interesting  to look into

    also 100% renewables charging is not possible in the UK at all unless yo0 are totally off grid.  That is a simple fact.  The claim you can is the greenwash

    Edukator
    Free Member

    What do we do now ? It’s down to:

    “No it isn’t”, “yes it is”

    “No it isn’t”, “yes it is”

    “No it isn’t”, “yes it is”

    “No it isn’t”, “yes it is”

    One side is providing evidence and one is saying “100% not possible”

    For those living in NW Scotland it’s imossible to charge using fossil fuels most of the time. I’d have to make an effort to badly time my charges to create demand that would be for extra fossil.

    It would also be nice if there were a bit more disclosure about other aspects of your carbon footprint, TJ. Nearly all the regulars on STW have contributed to the various energy threads disclosing their gas and electricty bills. Many have contributed to Gas/induction hob threads. You haven’t.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Does the sun come out during a long term high pressure weather event or not?

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    Whatgoesup – its a philosophical difference – read up on dark V light green to understand my viewpoint. Its not I am ill informed – its a different philosophical approach and one you might find interesting to look into

    also 100% renewables charging is not possible in the UK at all unless yo0 are totally off grid. That is a simple fact. The claim you can is the greenwash

    I understand all of that. That is a separate discussion to the one that the rest of us are (trying) to have.

    I’m not claiming you can currently charge the overall EV fleet 100% renewably (some individuals might be able to, but not most of us). Any thought that this is possible right now, or actually a realistic target is overly simplistic – the real world situation is far more nuanced.

    Meanwhile in order to not just turn the lights off and send us all back to the stone age overnight, and actually make the world work, improve things and develop to a better place where we COULD have 100% renewables there is a LOT of thought and planning going into developing future solutions – this is a journey that the world is on right now – we’re relatively close to the start, not the end of the journey now. You don’t seem willing to accept any discussion that is not about the end state.

    That however is NOT what this thread is about. If you want to talk about this please set up another thread, as you are ruining this one which is meant to be about Hydrogen use in cars (or rather it’s non-use in cars as it’s not a good solution for reasons that were being discussed until you derailed the thread).

    Now – PLEASE READ THE BLEEDING BOOK

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    What do we do now ?

    Go back to the actual thread discussion topic instead of indulging this total tangent to a different topic ?

    Daffy
    Full Member

    TJ.  You’re the only one on this thread talking about zero emissions.  All the rest of us are talking about substantial reductions in emissions.

    Time and again, I’ve done the **** numbers for you and you’re either too stupid or too pig headed to actually read them.  FFS, it’s shown in the bloody graphs.

    I genuinely do this for a living and am bloody good at it.  Right now, you sound like a Trump supporter howling at the moon because a 90% reduction in personal vehicle emissions isn’t good enough.

    as for 75% being a big IF.  Don’t be dumb.  I showed you the numbers. 100 Halide Turbines would support a 100% EV shift.  There are 277 at Dogger Bank and another 600 planned for P2 and P3.   Currently ~100 are online, another 100 later in the year and the final almost 80 in 2026.  Te rest are in planning for 2027-2031.  That’s over 11GW of generating capacity at average load.  Hinkley Point will go online in 2029-2030 with another 3.2GW of STABLE power.  That’s 14GW of extra GREEN capacity already built, being built or planned for the next 7 years.

    Now consider all the personal and commercial solar, batteries, etc.  this country is well on its way to 90% green power and personal transportation.

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    Dunno if it’s been talked about in the several pages since I last pointed it out but the new reactor project for Hartlepool is supposed to generate hydrogen as well as Sizewell C. Blue hydrogen I think the French call it. Sizewell C has an initial shelf life of 50 years I think and will almost certainly run longer (B is already going for an extension to 50 years and after that probably go for another 20). That’s the thing about PWR’s, take care of the vessel, containment and turbine and they can run as long as you need them to. A few big prime movers for synchronising plus whatever renewable you have deployed in various places and there is plenty of scope for production.

    Hydrogen requires even better quality of infra than natural gas as it CANNOT leak for safety reasons – you can’t even smell if it’s leaking

    Hate to tell you but you can’t smell natural gas either, the smell is an additive.

    I worked with hydrogen infra that would probably give you a heart attack if you saw it. Of course it was safe because it dissipates really quickly and was well ventilated.

    I do find it ironic that so many people put so much faith in improvements to battery tech yet find it utterly inconceivable that any novel hydrogen storage concepts could ever work.

    Putting all your eggs in one basket is not sustainable, there is no one size fits all solution. You’re act like one if those managers that has a Mac and thinks it’s the dogs bollocks and wants everyone to use one despite the company infra being built around Microsoft services and none of your proprietary software working on MacOS. There’s nothing wrong with either, it’s just a case of using the right tool for the job.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    I am looking forward to  good hydrogen bulk storage becoming reality.  to me its ideal for smoothing fluctuations in renewables output that is the main limitation with renewables

    No idea how much you would need tho but I guess even in liquid form an awful lot to provide say 24 hours worth of power for the UK ( to cover several days shortfall)

    Unst project does this on a small scale

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I visited an eco-house in freiburg with hydrogen storage for its PV production about 20 years ago. It wasn’t working. 🙂

    tjagain
    Full Member

    The one on Unst has been fir many years.  Small island with a few dozen residents.   Its total energy is a wind turbine to electricity with a hydrogen cracker and fuel cell to give pwer when the wind drops..

    tjagain
    Full Member

    It would also be nice if there were a bit more disclosure about other aspects of your carbon footprint, TJ. Nearly all the regulars on STW have contributed to the various energy threads disclosing their gas and electricty bills.

    Just spotted this.  I do not have a car, kids or pets  Those are the 3 big ones.  energy bills are high – a result of living in an old building that I have spent many tens of thousands on insulating.  My environmental footprint is very low compared to most westeners but still unsustainable

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Thanks, TJ. A sustainable number of kids, 1 or 2, I don’t see as a problem. The UK average is 1.7, I don’t see that as a problem.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    I do – dark green philosophy.  Far too many folk on the planet 🙂

    intheborders
    Free Member

    compared to reducing the use of private cars

    We’ve been here before, TJ is a single bloke living in the centre of a city and can’t imagine why any of us need private transport.  End.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    I didnt say eliminate i said reduce.  We need massive reductions in consumption to even have a chance of staying under 2 degrees .

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    I visited an eco-house in freiburg with hydrogen storage for its PV production about 20 years ago. It wasn’t working.

    To be fair that’s at an entirely different scale.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    Far too many folk on the planet 🙂

    Says a person living on the planet.

    Anyway – this topic has only just got back on to the topic of Hydrogen – let’s not let it descend back down the dark green rabbit hole.

    The “dark green” topic really deserves its own thread, otherwise no other thread on any topic relating to reducing emissions / consumption will be able to proceed without being derailed.

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