Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 250 total)
  • Hydrogen Cars – something doesn’t smell right
  • robertajobb
    Full Member

    What nobody in the EV camp likes to talk about is

    – it an exceptionally filthy environmentally fooking process to get the raw materials for L-ion batteries (it makes the oil and gas industry look like angels)

    – the vehicles weight half to a tonne more, therefore fooking the infrastructure more.

    Quoting the battery efficiency is also a dodge to mislead….how about factoring in the 49% efficiency  (figure from 2022 from Statistica) of a typical gas powered power station (because if you think the electricity is mainly coming from wind and wave or nuclear, you’re deluded).

    dmorts
    Full Member

    if you think the electricity is mainly coming from wind and wave or nuclear, you’re deluded

    At least the potential of those sources exists, plus there are others like solar. Petrol, diesel, hydrogen are limited in where they can be sourced from. You can’t do much about it. Electricity on the other hand can be made in a variety of ways.

    j4mie
    Free Member

    Didn’t read all the above but some of the usual fake news as you’d expect.

    Very few people know there are plans to transition the country’s gas networks to use hydrogen, detailed plans and all the safety testing has been passed as safe.

    i have seen there is street by street detailed plans for it to be done. I am sure it’ll happen, but as someone said above, the government isn’t keen for some reason – almost as if they have financial interests in gas companies…..

    it will happen and it’ll massively reduce carbon emissions for the country.

    I see some of the massively ridiculous claims by anti-EV types who are fixed in their ideas and are completely sure that what they read in the past (fires etc) will never be solved or improved on, electric grid will collapse and renewable generation will never increase and everything will shut down countrywide on a hit summer day with no wind blah blah blah.

    The way people live will change in the next few decades. I’m looking forward to it.

    just need a pro-Green government first.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    What nobody in the EV camp likes to talk about is

    When you start your post like this it makes you look like a conspiracy theorist nutter.

    The environment impact of mining is talked about a lot, and alternatives are looked at. Not least because manufacturers don’t want their supply chains dependent on a few locations which may be in unstable countries. One of the most problematic things is cobalt, and cobalt free batteries exist, for example.

    But the key point is that child labour and poor environmental regulation aren’t an intrinsic part of the EV concept – they can be fixed – but spewing CO2 is an intrinsic part of fossil fuel usage.

    if you think the electricity is mainly coming from wind and wave or nuclear, you’re deluded

    Do you have any real data that the national grid is lying to us all? Or are you just being a conspiracy theorist nutjob again?

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    if you think the electricity is mainly coming from wind and wave or nuclear, you’re deluded

    An increasing proportion is coming from these sources. And the whole point of moving to these new car technologies is that the power generation base is (and has to) move to close to 100% from these sources.

    The cars are part of that journey. True it’s not close to 100% yet, but it will be.

    Ewan
    Free Member

    Generally the industry view on Toyota is that they bet on hybrids which didn’t really take off so now they’re up shit creek. Green hydrogen is very expensive and as others have pointed out hydrogen for vehicles is impractical.

    Here are some non technical myth busters from the national grid: https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

    scruffywelder
    Free Member

    I wonder if the work that’s being done on Ammonia as a fuel might overtake Hydrogen. Wärtsilä and a couple of others seem to be pushing pretty hard with it for fuelling ships as are Toyota for smaller engines. Possibly not a solution for cars but maybe more practical than either electric or Hydrogen for trucks and buses.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Generally the industry view on Toyota is that they bet on hybrids which didn’t really take off so now they’re up shit creek

    They have pivoted to EVs rapidly though, and they now have the initiative to focus on lower cost battery options as well as maximal range which I think is pretty good.

    I have read about ammonia and other alternative fuels, pretty sure everything is being worked on given the potential returns.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Very few people know there are plans to transition the country’s gas networks to use hydrogen, detailed plans and all the safety testing has been passed as safe.

    There’s high level planning for just about any eventuality.

    i have seen

    What exactly have you seen? A YouTube clip? A white paper? Some fag packet calculations that say if you run it as slightly lower pressure you don’t lose too much through the pipes but run the risk of explosive atmospheres forming in voids arround the pipes? Vaillant/BG/Worcester-Bosch agreeing that you could swap the burner tip and it work reasonably well? Attack ships on fire on the shores of Orion, Genies glittering at the Ten-Hauser gate?

    there is street by street detailed plans for it to be done. I am sure it’ll happen, but as someone said above, the government isn’t keen for some reason – almost as if they have financial interests in gas companies…..

    it will happen and it’ll massively reduce carbon emissions for the country.

    No it bloody won’t.

    In the short term we don’t have the power available to waste making hydrogen.

    In the long term if we have so much excess supply that we can create expensive eletrolysis, compression and storage plants to turn large amounts of expensively produced energy  into small ammounts of hydrogen, we could ……… just heat out houses with it directly.

    Or indirectly. Even the 50s storage heater tech of “put some oven elements in hollow bricks, wrap it in asbestos and paint it brown and beige” is a more efficient way to store the energy.

    J-R
    Full Member

    Green hydrogen is pretty much no existent at the moment – we had this discussion in a previous thread about using it at Port Talbot for steel making.

    Green hydrogen comes from electricity, which means it is only an alternative transfer and storage mechanism between the green electricity generation and the car. Comments about fossil fuel power stations apply to both. If you have lots of green electricity in the future, and today we do not, do you send it by cables to an EV battery or do you turn it into H2 that is transported and stored at petrol stations for use in H2 cars.

    There are pros and cons to both strategies, but green hydrogen at scale is decades away and in the meantime EVs are here now and are the only game in town.

    Drac
    Full Member

    What nobody in the EV camp likes to talk about is

    That’ll be because it’s the usual nonsense spouted by EV haters. They’re improving mining, moving away from lithium and cobalt. Cobalt of course is heavily mined for the petroleum industry but EV haters don’t talk about that.

    Unless you’re saying the national grid is lying then I’m not sure about your claims of electricity production.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    if we have so much excess supply that we can create expensive eletrolysis, compression and storage plants to turn large amounts of expensively produced energy into small ammounts of hydrogen, we could ……… just heat out houses with it directly.

    Yes. I wonder what the round trip efficiency would be for generating hydrogen, shipping it around and burning it? 70-80% maybe? Consider that a heat pump using the same electricity is 250-400% efficient, you have a long way to go. And factor in that nearly all houses already have an electricity supply that’s ready to go right now – more than have gas in fact – and also that you can generate your own power at home.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    I have read about ammonia and other alternative fuels

    Yes, there are a lot of options for alternative fuels. Here is some public information from the company I work for. Note that the same company is working on battery and alternative fuel technologies including electrolysers and fuel cells for H2 plus fuels that can still be combusted but are possible to generate from electricity, i.e. as a renewable form of energy storage.
    Worth reading up on for anyone actually interested in facts and realistic future options rather than just bashing EVs etc.

    https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2023/11/08/cummins-inc-selected-uk-department-transport-its-high-horsepower-methanol

    https://www.cummins.com/news/2022/10/20/state-adoption-among-alternative-fuels

    https://www.accelerazero.com/

    Battery tech still looks like the dominant option for passenger cars (in my personal opinion – not a company position). Charging just isn’t an issue like some people seem to think (probably mostly people who have not actually lived with an EV for any period of time).

    Example – I did 260 ish miles yesterday taking my son mountain biking for the day – did it all on one charge but the car was left with 20% battery and I didn’t bother plugging in last night as wasn’t planning on driving anywhere today. I realised though that I need to make another (unplanned) journey today of about 150 miles, so I need to add 28kw.Hr (35%) of charge.
    My choices are – stopping at any one of four rapid chargers I know and trust en route. That would take 11 minutes plugged in. Or just switch the 7kW home charger on which I did at 8AM – it’ll be ready to go by midday and I’m not planning on leaving until after 1PM. Simply not a problem. And still miles cheaper than petrol or diesel.

    beej
    Full Member

    For anything related to net=zero and transitioning to cleaner energy, look at who is saying what, and what their interest is. Nuclear companies say nuclear is the answer, renewable companies push renewables, gas networks push hydrogen.

    I’m sure there are plans for transitioning the gas networks to hydrogen… done by the gas networks. It’s part of their job to plan. However, there aren’t any national or regional plans yet that look across different energy types. OFGEM have given this role to ESO (soon to be NESO – National Energy System Operator) but the Strategic Spatial Energy Plan and Regional Energy Spatial Plans don’t exist yet. These plans = once agreed – will influence what the gas and electric distribution networks are allowed to build. As regulated bodies they have to have their plans agreed and the amount of money they can spend is controlled by OFGEM.

    A gas network can’t just decide to transition to hydrogen. It’s all controlled by OFGEM.

    For a semi-independent view (as is any QANGO really independent?) take a look at the October 2023 report from the National Infrastructure Commission – summary here: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/oct/18/uk-infrastructure-needs-much-more-investment-say-government-advisers

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    One thing to add to the above re Hydrogen or any of the “alternative” fuels for that matter.

    Simple economics means that they will be premium options – because they take 3-4 times the amount of “input” power to generate vs direct electric / battery use and assuming that we don’t have so much renewable power available that it’s so cheap we can waste it.

    It will therefore only be used for applications where there is a tangible benefit vs battery electric or where there is no other option. Passenger cars are highly unlikely to fall into that category.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    And factor in that nearly all houses already have an electricity supply that’s ready to go right now

    Yes they have a supply. But in the real world many barely have an adequate infrstructure to supply for the current situation.

    Add in mass adoption of heat pumps and car chargers and your going to have significant upgrades required across the country .

    Likewise anyone listening to the people that are paid by the government to tell us that we have enough generation facility’s and the infrastructures fine needs to give their head a wobble.

    None of the independent sources agree with the nat grids assessment of the situation.

    finephilly
    Free Member

    I could see large ships or freight trains burning h2, but not cars.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    But in the real world many barely have an adequate infrastructure to supply for the current situation.

    Infrastructure will be, and is being improved. It’s also generally only PEAK demand that causes issues. EV’s don’t generally charge at peak times.

    Factor in the smart grid approach – decentralised generation, local storage (including home and car batteries) which can help smooth demand peaks and troughs and we’re in a much better position than might at first appear.

    Drac
    Full Member

    None of the independent sources agree with the nat grids assessment of the situation.

    I’ve seen dodgy reports on such claims.

    mrhoppy
    Full Member

    I could see large ships or freight trains burning h2, but not cars.

    They’re looking at ammonia for shipping as it has better storage properties. Trains are likely to go fully electric.

    metalheart
    Free Member

    https://nic.org.uk/app/uploads/NIA-2-Technical-annex-hydrogen-heating-Final-18-October-2023.pdf

    No case for hydrogen heating… It was confirmed

    Currently only 1 hydrogen heating trial (in Fife iirc), the Tyneside one I think has been cancelled…

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/13/uk-government-backs-plan-ban-gas-hydrogen-ready-boilers-newbuilds-2025#:~:text=The%20UK%20government%20has%20formally,on%20low%2Dcarbon%20building%20standards.

    From memory, the ‘allowance’ per house by the DNO (currently 4kW) rises by 3kW (EV charging) and 4kW (HP’s) to 11kW. And you need’s a proper 3 phase distribution network to balance that (projected time to convert: ~90 years at present…).

    Gas currently provides the lions share of heating (again from memory ~2x electric grid capacity).

    Also, I was advised that a LA, which had transitioned to EV’s, have quietly returned to diesel vans as the recent storm induced electrical outages (and snow) left them stuck and unable to provide proper emergency cover…

    It’s fun times we live in.

    mrhoppy
    Full Member

    i have seen there is street by street detailed plans for it to be done. I am sure it’ll happen

    Given they haven’t released anything beyond pre-FEED for project Union which in itself is only the spine to link the key generation hubs I’m going to say that’s bobbins, and even if you have it’s not anything beyond concept gazing.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Infrastructure will be, and is being improved. It’s also generally only PEAK demand that causes issues. EV’s don’t generally charge at peak times.

    Yes currently seems to consist of getting a 400kva decentralized node system in place at the expense of the landscape. .the towers needed are monstrous but I was more talking about final feeds to houses. Transformers and the ilk. I know we have a limited feed on an 80amp fuse and they won’t let us have batteries / EV fast charger together and that’s without trying to fit a heat pump.

    Namely as all three wNt the off-peak power together.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Yes. I wonder what the round trip efficiency would be for generating hydrogen, shipping it around and burning it? 70-80% maybe?

    Closer to 30-40%.

    In California where there was a big push for H2 in cars (remember Schwarzenegger had a hydrogen Humvee) they’ve had issues that the cars sold came with fuel cards to subsidize the fuel down to a level that would encourage people (i.e. cheaper than petrol).

    When the cards run out it’s more expensive than UK petrol (in the US remember) even with zero tax.

    So they’ve got a glut of these cars that are now worthless.

    For the avoidance of doubt I think all cars are bad and we’d be in a much better situation if we stopped individually spending thousands on a 2nd hand depreciating asset every few years and thousands again annually on running it and instead spent it on railways and busses that actually solve the problem

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    Consider that a heat pump using the same electricity is 250-400% efficient,

    I don’t think I understand what you are saying there.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I don’t think I understand what you are saying there.

    If you take 1kW of electricity, turn it into hydrogen, then burn it in your boiler you’d probably see about 500W of actual heat.

    If you put 1kW of electricity into a heat pump you’ll get about 3kW of heat in your house.

    wbo
    Free Member

    Honestly I have no idea what you’re getting up to

    ‘Yes currently seems to consist of getting a 400kva decentralized node system in place at the expense of the landscape. .the towers needed are monstrous but I was more talking about final feeds to houses. Transformers and the ilk. I know we have a limited feed on an 80amp fuse and they won’t let us have batteries / EV fast charger together and that’s without trying to fit a heat pump.’

    A normal Norwegia house can run all that – and a washing machine!

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    Yes currently seems to consist of getting a 400kva decentralized node system in place at the expense of the landscape. .the towers needed are monstrous but I was more talking about final feeds to houses. Transformers and the ilk. I know we have a limited feed on an 80amp fuse and they won’t let us have batteries / EV fast charger together and that’s without trying to fit a heat pump.

    Namely as all three wNt the off-peak power together.

    No idea what monstrous towers you’re talking about unless it’s interconnect from Kent to Norfolk and that is to enable power from the offshore wind farms, plus only being considered as it’s cheaper than other options such as pylons etc – either way it’s a specific case and nothing to do with decentralised power supplies in general. The wider plan is generally adapting / updating the existing infrastructure.

    Re the final feed to houses you seem to have missed the point around peak / off peak and demand balancing. You don’t run all forms of demand at the same time. You charge the car at night when overall demand is low. Energy for the heating would be in the daytime. Battery charging would generally be “whenever it’s cheapest” – I.e these power demands are all deliberately and specifically evened out. Demand based pricing enables that – hence the rollout of smart meters. At peak times (e.g. the 5pm slot when everyone is getting home, putting the heating on and cooking) you use house batteries / car batteries to offset demand or even sell back. This model already exists.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    I wonder what the round trip efficiency would be for generating hydrogen, shipping it around and burning it? 70-80% maybe?

    30% ish. That’s before the transport costs etc (tankers / pipelines etc).

    That’s the whole issue with Hydrogen. All of the other issues can be developed, but the fundamental inefficiency is the problem.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    No idea what monstrous towers you’re talking about unless it’s interconnect from Kent to Norfolk

    Well no slightly further afield. I still have the paint marks on the road either side of my house where the 400kva lines were going to be passing over my garden (for the record I have 1 * 138kva and 1*230kva lines in close proximity and they are relatively unobtrusive compared to 400kva infrastructure

    They had to reroute due to substation issues.

    I.e these power demands are all deliberately and specifically evened out.

    Yes you counter my argument by pointing out that the three highest use items would all be vying for the off-peak pricing slot….

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    If you put 1kW of electricity into a heat pump you’ll get about 3kW of heat in your house.

    I had no idea.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    Someone is always going to be put out by infrastructure development I’m afraid – regardless of what it is. Sounds like you are unlucky re that and I’m sorry to hear it’s affecting you.

    the three highest use items would all be vying for the off-peak pricing slot….

    Exactly, that is the goal.

    What is ideal is to have the highest use items be flexible in terms of when they draw power. This means that simple pricing models can adapt the demand to available supply. In simplistic terms this could totally flatten the demand profile, but it gets better – they can shape the demand profile to match the supply profile. With the increase in renewables content this can mean that for example there is a surplus in the middle of the day (a sunny, windy day) – tariffs like the smarter Octopus ones can make it very cheap to charge at these times. Chargers can be (and often are) dynamic enough to react to this and even predict it.

    Note that heating demand isn’t generally flexible – so the others (i.e. storage in cars or house batteries) would be the ones that “work around” this by changing their timing.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Sounds like you are unlucky re that and I’m sorry to hear it’s affecting you.

    It’s not affecting me anymore I still have sympathy for the environment as it’ll be going somewhere on vastly wider taller and more obtrusive pylons.

    But your response does sound similar to sse’s response to the chap who was losing his entire farm.

    They were told It’s for improving our supply . … Yet we have the generation locally and the 400kva infrastructure is not supplying local houses in anyway. It’s taking the offshore generation south.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    But your response does sound similar to sse’s

    If I can across as impersonal or uncaring then I apologise – I did not mean to.

    argee
    Full Member

    EVs are the ones that makes sense to invest into for the future, but i dare say it’s not the nightmare environmental issues on sourcing the rare earths and materials required for EVs and batteries, but i’d guess that hydrogen is rearing it’s head again due to the security of these materials, as China and Russia have the majority of them, and China especially have been investing massively in buying up even more via Africa and elsewhere.

    I see BMW are doing a bit of press on hydrogen cars, with others following suit soon, is it just an option being provided for vehicle types, or a push for less reliance on materials that might not be easy to get hold off in another generation?!

    J-R
    Full Member

    If I can across as impersonal or uncaring then I apologise

    You do not come across like that, but you do make some very interesting comments about how electric power is supplied and used.

    Daffy
    Full Member

    No one is really considering burning hydrogen except for power generation, marine and aerospace as it doesn’t get you to zero, you make a load of NOx. Ammonia is FAR worse for NOx than fossil fuels are now.

    Ammonia has poor energy density and poor volumetric density, is corrosive, still needs to be cooled/insulated and has the same generation issues as H2.

    That  it’s easier to store and move about are it’s only benefits.

    If Hydrogen leaks, it disperses very quickly, that’s not true for ammonia,

    As chemical energy storage for power stations, H2 and Ammonia are both viable, but H2 would be better for power and burning products.

    J-R
    Full Member

    I don’t know why H2 as a car fuel is being discussed so much here. It is simply not available as a green fuel in any meaningful amount and until we have almost unlimited amounts of green electricity it won’t be viable to produce industrial quantities of green hydrogen – so not for decades yet.

    Other than possibly specialised applications like heavy transport it will remain the wrong answer to the question of green power compared to electricity for a long time to come.

    igm
    Full Member

    Interesting thread.

    OK – vested interests on the table – but also some relevant knowledge and understanding.

    Having served as Head of Innovation and now Head of Connections Design for a DNO, and been slightly involved in some of the hydrogen domestic heat trials, there’s some sense here, and some nonsense.

    I can definitely help with.

    From memory, the ‘allowance’ per house by the DNO (currently 4kW) rises by 3kW (EV charging) and 4kW (HP’s) to 11kW. And you need’s a proper 3 phase distribution network to balance that (projected time to convert: ~90 years at present…).

    The “allowance” for a vanilla domestic premises has been falling for the last 20-30 years. About 2.5kW per house when I started and around 1.5kW per house today. That’s the diversified peak, not the peak in any one house.
    A 7kW domestic EV charger adds about 1.5kW to that diversified peak.
    Heat pumps the jury is out.
    But in basic terms, home charging overnight can be accommodated – provided not everyone in an area is on the Octopus 00:30-04:30 tariff – that destroys diversity. But that hasn’t been a problem yet, and supply and demand economics suggest it probably won’t become one overnight.
    More of an issue is summer day time energy production – electricity might simply be so cheap at midday on a sunny windy June day that everyone wants to charge.

    Leave it with us – we’re working on it.

    Oh and someone mentioned 80A fuses. Just for clarity, an 80A fuse gives you a 100A supply assuming any reasonable sort of cyclic loading (you don’t run flat out at 100A for 4 hours or you’re at 8-10 times the typical domestic energy use, or 4-5 times the domestic use including car charging).
    My own house, including car charging and home battery charging rarely gets to half that load at peak.

    Heat pumps though are more interesting – the installation including radiator or underfloor, running temperature, house temperature running regime and insulation will make a huge difference and any pronouncement is probably speculation.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    A bit more this week on Harry’s Garage about EVs – range, battery degradation, depreciation, etc. Also this rather interesting remark from head of Toyota.

    Screenshot 2024-02-11 at 21.52.28

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